Python is EVIL....
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Hi All Winge mode on. I have spent more time than I like to admit fighting with Python today who on good earth though white spaces should be syntax! OK, I came from a C/Assembly background curly braces win not spaces... It's odd plain odd! :wtf: I am going to start using Notepad++ as I at least have a chance of keeping tabs and or spaces in line. I don't like it it might be different if you are introduced from the word go, but I can see People being taught with it being very picky and it making you layout code better but...
haha, as a BASIC guy, I feel the same way about case sensitivity being part of syntax. THIS and this should not be different things!
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No, never seen any of those, not had any problem with IDLE. And I don't quite see how it can reveal your passwords. Maybe you are doing something wrong.
I am not going to discuss the details because this is the Lounge. I don't like IDLE because it changes the behavior of the language; and with a few tweaks, Notepad++ does everything I want.
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Already in 1978 I allowed myself the luxury of a hex keypad and 7 segment LED displays instead of toggle switches and eight simple LEDs.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
Reminds me of booting the old PDP/11-70 Toggle all switches down. Toggle up the 770 (Octal... Because Hexadecimal was just WAY OUT THERE) Hit load Toggle up the LUN (I believe was next) Hit run. You literally needed a manual to know how to boot from tape vs. disk. Making a bootable tape was akin to magic. (Most bootable tapes came from DEC).
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OriginalGriff wrote:
Sort of: it was intended for punch cards, so in the early days specific columns had specific meanings.
I can't believe you mentioned this! You set my therapy back decades! :laugh: Funny story: my freshman year of college we submitted programs on punchcards. During the first class of the first course, we were warned to buy a wide marker. Type your deck, line the cards up neatly, then draw a diagonal stripe across the top of the deck. If the deck got out of order the stripe could be used to visually fix the order of the deck. Also use at least 2 rubber bands to hold the deck together, in case one broke. If we had to make significant revisions to the program, the top could get messy with multiple stripes, but the manual labor of producing a deck made us better, more careful programmers. That and having 12 hour turnaround times on program runs near the end of the semester -- we could not afford to be sloppy at all. [It also made us accurate typists -- miss a stroke, throw out that card] It's end of the semester and nearing midnight. I had dropped off my deck at noon and had walked across campus to pick up the deck + printout. My run had been successful so I got to sleep! ;P Guy is walking towards me, carrying a deck of at least 300 cards. He drops the deck, the single rubber band breaks, and cards spray every where. No sign of a stripe on the top of the deck. Poor guy looks like he's going to cry. He starts to get down on his knees to pick up the deck, straightens up, shakes his head, and walks away ...
You have a twisted sense of humor.
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No, Python is meant for people who want to get stuff done without having to debate brace layout and other trivialities. It's quicker to get simple stuff done than C/C++ (for one, you don't have to recompile). It can be extended with C/C++ if you think you have a performance need. If you think Python is for non-programmers, you may be disappointed to find that it's exactly for you.
I don't want to exaggerate, but we both probably agree that syntax is important, as it helps our brain to understand (quicker or slower :-) ) what we are doing ... So, Glenn is quite right in his remarks. But of course as you say there are qualities in Python, and I would also add that it is in top 5 in the TIOBE list "as we speak". Perhaps I will give Python another try ... :-), BR
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glennPattonWork wrote:
I am going to start using Notepad++
Visual Studio supports python since 2015
In theory, theory agrees perfectly with practice. In practice, this is virtually never the case. "*the {VOiCE} says: The truth is analog - not digital." - jonathan HICKMAN
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I don't want to exaggerate, but we both probably agree that syntax is important, as it helps our brain to understand (quicker or slower :-) ) what we are doing ... So, Glenn is quite right in his remarks. But of course as you say there are qualities in Python, and I would also add that it is in top 5 in the TIOBE list "as we speak". Perhaps I will give Python another try ... :-), BR
I highly recommend it (:
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Hi All Winge mode on. I have spent more time than I like to admit fighting with Python today who on good earth though white spaces should be syntax! OK, I came from a C/Assembly background curly braces win not spaces... It's odd plain odd! :wtf: I am going to start using Notepad++ as I at least have a chance of keeping tabs and or spaces in line. I don't like it it might be different if you are introduced from the word go, but I can see People being taught with it being very picky and it making you layout code better but...
Have you tried copying python code yet? They used tabs but you've got spaces and now there's red squiggles everywhere telling you really weird things about incomplete methods. It looks like it all lines up and you're not sure who had the tabs and who had the spaces so you're not sure what to change what to.
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Already in 1978 I allowed myself the luxury of a hex keypad and 7 segment LED displays instead of toggle switches and eight simple LEDs.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
Heh, I guess I was styling back then. I'd purchased a 16 line by 64 character display card for my S100 bus system (only card I hadn't put together myself). Connected it to an old TV. I actually can't remember how the keyboard connected to the system but the only I/O I had at the time was an RS232 interface board I'd wire wrapped so I guess that how it had to be. Even though I had a preemo display and keyboard I was still programming by the numbers.
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I am not going to discuss the details because this is the Lounge. I don't like IDLE because it changes the behavior of the language; and with a few tweaks, Notepad++ does everything I want.
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Heh, I guess I was styling back then. I'd purchased a 16 line by 64 character display card for my S100 bus system (only card I hadn't put together myself). Connected it to an old TV. I actually can't remember how the keyboard connected to the system but the only I/O I had at the time was an RS232 interface board I'd wire wrapped so I guess that how it had to be. Even though I had a preemo display and keyboard I was still programming by the numbers.
Very typical combination at that time. A character based graphics board + TV/Monitor + keyboard = serial terminal. I had one of those as well, but only the keyboard and the monitor have survived and still work.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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Heh, I guess I was styling back then. I'd purchased a 16 line by 64 character display card for my S100 bus system (only card I hadn't put together myself). Connected it to an old TV. I actually can't remember how the keyboard connected to the system but the only I/O I had at the time was an RS232 interface board I'd wire wrapped so I guess that how it had to be. Even though I had a preemo display and keyboard I was still programming by the numbers.
Wirewrap! We didn't have no stinkin wirewrap! We had a solder gun, 18 ga wire and we liked it.
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You don't remember COBOL? It had positional stuff too. Didn't it? That was one class a LONG time ago. Also remember WHY it's called Python. Some of their stuff was extremely silly.
Isn't RPG like that too?
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Wirewrap! We didn't have no stinkin wirewrap! We had a solder gun, 18 ga wire and we liked it.
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Sort of: it was intended for punch cards, so in the early days specific columns had specific meanings. This explains it well: fortran - Why does COBOL have to be indented? - Stack Overflow[^] FORTRAN had similar: Column 1 indicated a comment if it held a C or a *, columns 1-5 were labels, 6 allowed a line to continue from the previous one. But ... it removed all whitespace outside strings before compilation. And since it didn't require variable declaration (the type of a variable depended on the first letter in its name):
DO 100 i = 1, 10
Was VERY different from
DO 100 X = 1. 10
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Wimp! Real programmers coded with the front panel switches! :laugh: And uber-programmers coded with a compass and a small bar magnet...
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
Take a look at a PDP-11/34 or a Heathkit / Zenith H-8 front panel. The H-8 documentation included an 8-1/2 x 11 Programmer's Reference Card with the octal version of the 8080 instruction set, as I recall, which got used to hand-assemble a few simple programs!
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Thanks ... I was just going to ask about this :). This makes things a lot easier. Perhaps I will give Python another try ...
Like some of the other respondents, I was introduced to programming with BASIC and FORTRAN in the '70s. Turbo Pascal was fun to use and was my introduction to functional languages. Still, for most of my career Excel was adequate for data manipulation, analysis and presentation. A few years ago, I began generating 1000 point molecular dynamics data series and Excel fell short of my needs. Some Google research led me to matplotlib and python. I know that views differ, but I am a fan. There are many great libraries, especially for scientific applications. Anaconda bundles an ample collection (including native IDEs) and is trivial to install, even without admin rights on Windows. I find the VS support for python to be pretty decent. It will auto-indent spaces or tabs cleanly use spaces < /whisper> and highlight any inconsistencies. You can choose from several python and Anaconda environments to get satisfactory Intellisense. My only real complaint is the inconsistent performance of the Navigation bar in VS 2017 Community. Frequently, the drop-down will not be populated with the objects in a module, which is annoying. Since VS 15.6, it has been better, but the second-level drop-down (e.g. for functions in a class) is still always empty for me. There is a bit of frustrated discussion about this online and MS repeatedly claims it fixed, but... Python is not the the right hammer for every nail. Nonetheless, it is a great ancillary tool to have. I hope that it gives you a good second experience. George
In theory, theory agrees perfectly with practice. In practice, this is virtually never the case. "*the {VOiCE} says: The truth is analog - not digital." - jonathan HICKMAN
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Martijn Smitshoek wrote:
I don't like IDLE because it changes the behavior of the language
How exactly does it do that?
try in IDLE:
import getpass
getpass.getpass()then type something. Not very useful.
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Hi All Winge mode on. I have spent more time than I like to admit fighting with Python today who on good earth though white spaces should be syntax! OK, I came from a C/Assembly background curly braces win not spaces... It's odd plain odd! :wtf: I am going to start using Notepad++ as I at least have a chance of keeping tabs and or spaces in line. I don't like it it might be different if you are introduced from the word go, but I can see People being taught with it being very picky and it making you layout code better but...
What about SNOBOL which used the space as an operator whose meaning changed depending on where it appeared in the line of code? It was invented when code was keypunched so entabbed source code was physically impossible.
Joan F Silverston jsilverston@cox.net nhswinc.com
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Hi All Winge mode on. I have spent more time than I like to admit fighting with Python today who on good earth though white spaces should be syntax! OK, I came from a C/Assembly background curly braces win not spaces... It's odd plain odd! :wtf: I am going to start using Notepad++ as I at least have a chance of keeping tabs and or spaces in line. I don't like it it might be different if you are introduced from the word go, but I can see People being taught with it being very picky and it making you layout code better but...
Definitely use a python aware editor. Try Sublime editor (my personal favorite) or gvim. Sublime not only has tab space substitution - but it also has block indent and block comment which will save your mind programming python as well. And don't fret - after a while the indenting and spaces come natural, you may even start to like it.
