freelance protection
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I recently moved over to a new company about 6 months ago, but now I've got my previous employer contacting me to do some freelance work after hours to patch a few things and add some new features to the existing system. Here's the but; but I'm concerned with protecting myself against any sort of liability or longer term support (after all there is a reason I left). since the previous work was building control systems for industrial equipment, there's a lot of liability real quick if something went wrong, and now that I'm no longer employed by them I'm worried if something did go wrong, I would get it in the end. Do I want to do it? No. But I've got some guilt on leaving them without another programmer to pick up the load. So any suggestions on how to protect myself? or should I just pass and leave them hanging?:confused:
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I recently moved over to a new company about 6 months ago, but now I've got my previous employer contacting me to do some freelance work after hours to patch a few things and add some new features to the existing system. Here's the but; but I'm concerned with protecting myself against any sort of liability or longer term support (after all there is a reason I left). since the previous work was building control systems for industrial equipment, there's a lot of liability real quick if something went wrong, and now that I'm no longer employed by them I'm worried if something did go wrong, I would get it in the end. Do I want to do it? No. But I've got some guilt on leaving them without another programmer to pick up the load. So any suggestions on how to protect myself? or should I just pass and leave them hanging?:confused:
If there is significant liability in your industry, the only way you can get any protection at all is via a contract that clearly shifts the liability to your former employer. You can probably find a boiler-plater contract out there, but personally, I wouldn't be comfortable using one without a lawyer. I'd nicely explain your desire to help, but that you can't because you're worried about liability. That answer probably won't be well-received, especially if your employer is desperate, but that's about the best you can do. Sounds like a tough situation, best of luck. Now, if they're willing to pay enough to cover your legal costs, that might be a whole different thing. I'd bet heavily that won't be the case :)
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I recently moved over to a new company about 6 months ago, but now I've got my previous employer contacting me to do some freelance work after hours to patch a few things and add some new features to the existing system. Here's the but; but I'm concerned with protecting myself against any sort of liability or longer term support (after all there is a reason I left). since the previous work was building control systems for industrial equipment, there's a lot of liability real quick if something went wrong, and now that I'm no longer employed by them I'm worried if something did go wrong, I would get it in the end. Do I want to do it? No. But I've got some guilt on leaving them without another programmer to pick up the load. So any suggestions on how to protect myself? or should I just pass and leave them hanging?:confused:
I'd move on. As an employee, you do have some liability in the case of gross negligence, but otherwise you are shielded. This is not so as an independent contractor with some narrow exceptions. That said, you'd need to talk with a qualified attorney. (In the end, you'd probably pay more in legal fees and liability insurance that you'd make.)
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I recently moved over to a new company about 6 months ago, but now I've got my previous employer contacting me to do some freelance work after hours to patch a few things and add some new features to the existing system. Here's the but; but I'm concerned with protecting myself against any sort of liability or longer term support (after all there is a reason I left). since the previous work was building control systems for industrial equipment, there's a lot of liability real quick if something went wrong, and now that I'm no longer employed by them I'm worried if something did go wrong, I would get it in the end. Do I want to do it? No. But I've got some guilt on leaving them without another programmer to pick up the load. So any suggestions on how to protect myself? or should I just pass and leave them hanging?:confused:
Listen to Eric, do not take on potential liability without legal advice. Also do not feel guilty about leaving an employer without a replacement unless you walked out on them without notice.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Listen to Eric, do not take on potential liability without legal advice. Also do not feel guilty about leaving an employer without a replacement unless you walked out on them without notice.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
thanks, for your advice. I gave them a couple weeks notice, but they had also known for about 6 months I was looking to leave. 18 years is too long for that type of work.
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If there is significant liability in your industry, the only way you can get any protection at all is via a contract that clearly shifts the liability to your former employer. You can probably find a boiler-plater contract out there, but personally, I wouldn't be comfortable using one without a lawyer. I'd nicely explain your desire to help, but that you can't because you're worried about liability. That answer probably won't be well-received, especially if your employer is desperate, but that's about the best you can do. Sounds like a tough situation, best of luck. Now, if they're willing to pay enough to cover your legal costs, that might be a whole different thing. I'd bet heavily that won't be the case :)
I know how they pay, It's not likely to cover anywhere near the costs of a lawyer. thanks for the advice.
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I'd move on. As an employee, you do have some liability in the case of gross negligence, but otherwise you are shielded. This is not so as an independent contractor with some narrow exceptions. That said, you'd need to talk with a qualified attorney. (In the end, you'd probably pay more in legal fees and liability insurance that you'd make.)
thanks for the advice. the company, and the industry in general have a bad way of pointing fingers if something happens months or years down the road. one of the main reasons for leaving after 18 years, just couldn't take it anymore.
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I recently moved over to a new company about 6 months ago, but now I've got my previous employer contacting me to do some freelance work after hours to patch a few things and add some new features to the existing system. Here's the but; but I'm concerned with protecting myself against any sort of liability or longer term support (after all there is a reason I left). since the previous work was building control systems for industrial equipment, there's a lot of liability real quick if something went wrong, and now that I'm no longer employed by them I'm worried if something did go wrong, I would get it in the end. Do I want to do it? No. But I've got some guilt on leaving them without another programmer to pick up the load. So any suggestions on how to protect myself? or should I just pass and leave them hanging?:confused:
Well, flush your guilt down the toilet -- it's their responsibility to find someone to pick up the work, not yours. That said, if you actually want to do the work, yeah, you can put a liability clause in the contract, but at the end of the day, they've got the money for the lawyers, you don't. A few years back I worked for a consulting agency that required us consultants to have professional liability insurance (they didn't want to be liable, and I can understand that.) It was cheap enough, and I have kept it even though I no longer work for that agency. In addition to my part time employment, I do consulting, both pro bono and for hourly, and I think it's a good thing to have. [Tailored Business Insurance | Hiscox](https://www.hiscox.com)
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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I know how they pay, It's not likely to cover anywhere near the costs of a lawyer. thanks for the advice.
I am assuming that you gave them enough notice before quitting, so there's no need for any guilt (they're exploiting your guilt). If you were so important to them, they shouldn't have let you go (you moved out for a better pay, I suppose, among other things). They've left themselves hanging out for drying, not you. If they're not going to cover the lawyer's cost of drafting a contract that protects you, then I see it as them not wanting you to help them. If I were you, I'd say "wish I could help you" to the company, have a hot chocolate, and call it a day.
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Well, flush your guilt down the toilet -- it's their responsibility to find someone to pick up the work, not yours. That said, if you actually want to do the work, yeah, you can put a liability clause in the contract, but at the end of the day, they've got the money for the lawyers, you don't. A few years back I worked for a consulting agency that required us consultants to have professional liability insurance (they didn't want to be liable, and I can understand that.) It was cheap enough, and I have kept it even though I no longer work for that agency. In addition to my part time employment, I do consulting, both pro bono and for hourly, and I think it's a good thing to have. [Tailored Business Insurance | Hiscox](https://www.hiscox.com)
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Marc makes an excellent point with regard to liability insurance. I've carried it for so long that I frankly forgot I still have it. If you anticipate doing any freelance work, its a necessity. Simply be careful to read the fine print, check the reputation of the insurer, and make sure the cap is high enough to cover any reasonable liability you anticipate. All that said, from your description, it sounds like you're in a particularly litigious segment of the industry. Unless the benefits truly justify the effort and risks, I'd still advise a polite pass. While I think its overkill in this case, incorporation can provide an additional layer of protection. I mention this in case you ever consider additional opportunities. Forming an LLC, in most states, is comparatively inexpensive and not overly difficult.
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I recently moved over to a new company about 6 months ago, but now I've got my previous employer contacting me to do some freelance work after hours to patch a few things and add some new features to the existing system. Here's the but; but I'm concerned with protecting myself against any sort of liability or longer term support (after all there is a reason I left). since the previous work was building control systems for industrial equipment, there's a lot of liability real quick if something went wrong, and now that I'm no longer employed by them I'm worried if something did go wrong, I would get it in the end. Do I want to do it? No. But I've got some guilt on leaving them without another programmer to pick up the load. So any suggestions on how to protect myself? or should I just pass and leave them hanging?:confused:
Matt McGuire wrote:
I'm concerned with protecting myself against any sort of liability or longer term support
As others have said: 1. Consult a good lawyer about liability! 2. If you take this on, get liability insurance!
Matt McGuire wrote:
I've got some guilt on leaving them without another programmer to pick up the load.
As you didn't walk out without notice, this is not your problem. Your ex-manager gets paid in order to worry about what happens if you quit / walk under a bus / run off to join an ashram / whatever. Unless they will accept a contract that (a) protects you from liability at the level you had as an employee and (b) is limited to the work done - no long-term support, I would pass.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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I recently moved over to a new company about 6 months ago, but now I've got my previous employer contacting me to do some freelance work after hours to patch a few things and add some new features to the existing system. Here's the but; but I'm concerned with protecting myself against any sort of liability or longer term support (after all there is a reason I left). since the previous work was building control systems for industrial equipment, there's a lot of liability real quick if something went wrong, and now that I'm no longer employed by them I'm worried if something did go wrong, I would get it in the end. Do I want to do it? No. But I've got some guilt on leaving them without another programmer to pick up the load. So any suggestions on how to protect myself? or should I just pass and leave them hanging?:confused:
Matt McGuire wrote:
now that I'm no longer employed by them I'm worried if something did go wrong, I would get it in the end.
If you're doing this make sure you have a signed contract that states you're not liable for any damages, etc.
Matt McGuire wrote:
But I've got some guilt on leaving them without another programmer to pick up the load.
That's their problem, you're not responsible for their hiring process. Or you could just say your new employer doesn't like you doing freelance work on the side. It's actually part of a lot of employment contracts where I live (you might want to check that anyway). Or even simpler, you're fully booked and can't take on any new assignments for the time being :) In any case you're not leaving them hanging. You've done your job, if I read between the lines you weren't that well compensated for it, and they ultimately failed to hire a replacement.
Best, Sander Continuous Integration, Delivery, and Deployment arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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Well, flush your guilt down the toilet -- it's their responsibility to find someone to pick up the work, not yours. That said, if you actually want to do the work, yeah, you can put a liability clause in the contract, but at the end of the day, they've got the money for the lawyers, you don't. A few years back I worked for a consulting agency that required us consultants to have professional liability insurance (they didn't want to be liable, and I can understand that.) It was cheap enough, and I have kept it even though I no longer work for that agency. In addition to my part time employment, I do consulting, both pro bono and for hourly, and I think it's a good thing to have. [Tailored Business Insurance | Hiscox](https://www.hiscox.com)
Latest Article - Building a Prototype Web-Based Diagramming Tool with SVG and Javascript Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
IYDMA, what is "cheap enough" and how much coverage does that get you?
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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I recently moved over to a new company about 6 months ago, but now I've got my previous employer contacting me to do some freelance work after hours to patch a few things and add some new features to the existing system. Here's the but; but I'm concerned with protecting myself against any sort of liability or longer term support (after all there is a reason I left). since the previous work was building control systems for industrial equipment, there's a lot of liability real quick if something went wrong, and now that I'm no longer employed by them I'm worried if something did go wrong, I would get it in the end. Do I want to do it? No. But I've got some guilt on leaving them without another programmer to pick up the load. So any suggestions on how to protect myself? or should I just pass and leave them hanging?:confused:
Matt McGuire wrote:
there's a lot of liability real quick if something went wrong
If that's the case, then IMO it really looks bad on them that they'd still rather hand that work to a freelancer (how seriously are they taking the risks?) Leave it to them to find a suitable replacement. You quit for a reason.
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Matt McGuire wrote:
there's a lot of liability real quick if something went wrong
If that's the case, then IMO it really looks bad on them that they'd still rather hand that work to a freelancer (how seriously are they taking the risks?) Leave it to them to find a suitable replacement. You quit for a reason.
Thanks. With everyone's advice, I think I'm going to pass, I really don't need this headache right now. before I left I let them know I could give limited support; as in: training the next dev on the software structure, and answering basic questions by email, while my memory on that system still held. Really didn't think they would be calling me in for code changes.
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Matt McGuire wrote:
now that I'm no longer employed by them I'm worried if something did go wrong, I would get it in the end.
If you're doing this make sure you have a signed contract that states you're not liable for any damages, etc.
Matt McGuire wrote:
But I've got some guilt on leaving them without another programmer to pick up the load.
That's their problem, you're not responsible for their hiring process. Or you could just say your new employer doesn't like you doing freelance work on the side. It's actually part of a lot of employment contracts where I live (you might want to check that anyway). Or even simpler, you're fully booked and can't take on any new assignments for the time being :) In any case you're not leaving them hanging. You've done your job, if I read between the lines you weren't that well compensated for it, and they ultimately failed to hire a replacement.
Best, Sander Continuous Integration, Delivery, and Deployment arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
they had actually promised me another developer 12+ years ago to take some of the load off, but they never seemed to get around to looking. Anyway, thanks for the advice. I think I'm going to use what you said and say my current employer has some issues with this, and for legal reasons I can't touch the code (still all technically true).
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Matt McGuire wrote:
I'm concerned with protecting myself against any sort of liability or longer term support
As others have said: 1. Consult a good lawyer about liability! 2. If you take this on, get liability insurance!
Matt McGuire wrote:
I've got some guilt on leaving them without another programmer to pick up the load.
As you didn't walk out without notice, this is not your problem. Your ex-manager gets paid in order to worry about what happens if you quit / walk under a bus / run off to join an ashram / whatever. Unless they will accept a contract that (a) protects you from liability at the level you had as an employee and (b) is limited to the work done - no long-term support, I would pass.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
Thanks, It's looking like too much of a hassle so, I'm going to let them know that I'm passing. Before I left, I said I could give some limited support until they got a new dev; like questions over the phone or emails while my memory still held. I'm pretty sure I never said anything about touching the code, likely they just assumed it; which is odd, because that usually required being on a customer's site to test changes to the software in how it interacts with all the equipment, no simulating that.
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Marc makes an excellent point with regard to liability insurance. I've carried it for so long that I frankly forgot I still have it. If you anticipate doing any freelance work, its a necessity. Simply be careful to read the fine print, check the reputation of the insurer, and make sure the cap is high enough to cover any reasonable liability you anticipate. All that said, from your description, it sounds like you're in a particularly litigious segment of the industry. Unless the benefits truly justify the effort and risks, I'd still advise a polite pass. While I think its overkill in this case, incorporation can provide an additional layer of protection. I mention this in case you ever consider additional opportunities. Forming an LLC, in most states, is comparatively inexpensive and not overly difficult.
I'm going to pass on helping them after everyone's advice. the industrial equipment I controlled was mostly for controlled atmosphere fruit storage warehouses; a single room could be between 1/2 to 2 million dollars in fruit multiply that times say 20 rooms at a customer facility, same system code runs on almost 200 facility's, that's a lot of liability. while yes, an LLC is an option, it also seem like a lot of work to setup when I just want to sever ties with the previous place and move on. Thanks for your advice, I'll keep it in mind if I ever decide to go solo.:thumbsup:
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Thanks. With everyone's advice, I think I'm going to pass, I really don't need this headache right now. before I left I let them know I could give limited support; as in: training the next dev on the software structure, and answering basic questions by email, while my memory on that system still held. Really didn't think they would be calling me in for code changes.
As a developer and business owner, I'm going to disagree with the prevailing opinion of 'look after yourself only and ignore the ex employer's interest completely'. These are the issues as I see them:- -You were primarily responsible for the development of the control software over 18 years. -Your employer clearly trusts your skills and integrity. -Employing another developer will take months if not longer for them to get up to speed. -There is a danger of a new developer corrupting the code. -Burning bridges can be a costly mistake. new positions often turn out to be worse than the previous. People often go back to previous jobs. -Protecting yourself is not a big deal. All you need is a signed letter from the empolyer setting out exactly what they want you to do and a clause which indemnifies you against any liability whatsoever. I recommend you give them the 'no liability clause', if you don't want to pay legal fees, there are plenty templates on the internet OR use one from one of the major cloud platform EULAS and adapt for dev work. As developers we also carry an unsaid responsibility for the products we create. You did say you would provide support before leaving. If you are a developer 'support' means code. How would you like it if all support for a product you relied on simply stopped one day. Of course you are free to set your own rates. There are always two sides. It pays to consider both. PostScript There is one thing I should add. Professional Indemnity Insurance is a necessity. DerekTP123 has some good advice on this. Good luck with whatever you decide.
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I recently moved over to a new company about 6 months ago, but now I've got my previous employer contacting me to do some freelance work after hours to patch a few things and add some new features to the existing system. Here's the but; but I'm concerned with protecting myself against any sort of liability or longer term support (after all there is a reason I left). since the previous work was building control systems for industrial equipment, there's a lot of liability real quick if something went wrong, and now that I'm no longer employed by them I'm worried if something did go wrong, I would get it in the end. Do I want to do it? No. But I've got some guilt on leaving them without another programmer to pick up the load. So any suggestions on how to protect myself? or should I just pass and leave them hanging?:confused:
As others have pointed out, you need Professional Indemnity insurance. Don't do a THING for money as a freelancer without it; you could potentially end up bankrupt. It doesn't cost a fortune, and you can claim the cost as an expense for tax purposes. And oddly enough, the insurer never seems to require any sort of evidence whatsoever that you're even vaguely competent, when it comes to software. Most policies do, though, have some sort of clause that only gives protection if you are following "industry best practice" so if you're negligent then even the insurance won't cover you. PI insurance is just another reason why freelancer rates have to be higher than employee rates; we have more costs, and take higher risks.
