Iran war
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Their claim that the US drone was in their airspace was your excuse for why shooting it down was not an act of war. Sheesh!
I said "They claim". Never said I trusted them with that. But going to war over this is a mistake. And I don't trust Trump's administration that they claim in territorial waters. Sheesh!
Le centriste wrote:
But going to war over this is a mistake.
What is the official "Le centriste" litmus test for acts of war? Obviously you'd consider a retaliatory US airstrike against Iranian missile sites an act of war because you already said so. We know that you don't consider Iran attacking civilian ships (tankers) and shooting down unmanned US military aircraft to rise to the level of "act of war". What if Iran: Shoots at a civilian airliner? Shoots down a civilian airliner? Shoots at a manned US military aircraft? Shoots down a manned US military aircraft? Bombs a US military base? Fires missiles at Israel? Arrest, convict, execute a bunch of Americans in Iran? Do any of those pass the "Le centriste" test that would warrant a military response?
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Iran is begging to get slapped down.
I doubt it. But if they did attack these two ships, then the government should attempt to interpret that message rather than use it as an excuse to start a war.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Let the rest of the world go up in flames...sadly that's not the world we currently live in
I am very glad that is not the world we live it.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
sometimes we'll have to pull out our guns and sometimes we'll have to fire them.
Maybe, but we should be very careful about when we chose to either pull guns or shoot them. I have seen nothing to suggest this administration* knows how to be careful.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
If the answer is "There is none"
That is correct. Il Douche and his minions have shown their eagerness for war with Iran and I have zero trust in them. We've already been pulled into a war under false pretenses and I have no interest in seeing a repeat performance.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
then you seriously need to move to another country.
No, actually I don't.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
Majerus wrote:
I have seen nothing to suggest this administration* knows how to be careful.
To date, he's been more careful than the previous 2 administrations. :rolleyes:
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
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Le centriste wrote:
But going to war over this is a mistake.
What is the official "Le centriste" litmus test for acts of war? Obviously you'd consider a retaliatory US airstrike against Iranian missile sites an act of war because you already said so. We know that you don't consider Iran attacking civilian ships (tankers) and shooting down unmanned US military aircraft to rise to the level of "act of war". What if Iran: Shoots at a civilian airliner? Shoots down a civilian airliner? Shoots at a manned US military aircraft? Shoots down a manned US military aircraft? Bombs a US military base? Fires missiles at Israel? Arrest, convict, execute a bunch of Americans in Iran? Do any of those pass the "Le centriste" test that would warrant a military response?
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
We know that you don't consider Iran attacking civilian ships (tankers)
I don't know about the tanker, but they claim it is not them. And they claim the drone was in their airspace, they even have the pieces (as they say, that may be false). They may be lying, telling the truth, half-truth, etc. US may be lying on it too, deliberately flying a drone in Iran airspace so it gets shot, then claiming it was on international waters. So, you want to go at war with this? Remember when US had "proof" that Iraq was harvesting WMDs? They were never found, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and several thousands of American soldiers died, for that lie. You want to do that again?
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Majerus wrote:
I have seen nothing to suggest this administration* knows how to be careful.
To date, he's been more careful than the previous 2 administrations. :rolleyes:
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
I disagree. The past two years have shown nothing but provocations, open hostility, and threats of war.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
If I had my way, we'd pull ALL military assets back to our own borders. We'd leave the UN and NATO. Let the rest of the world go up in flames
It may end up the other way. Everyone off better without the US. :laugh: :laugh: Except Canada, poor Canada. It would feel very isolated.
Le centriste wrote:
It may end up the other way. Everyone off better without the US.
Yet whenever Trump mentioned anything about leaving the UN or NATO your governments cried like scared little lambs. Didja wonder why?
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
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I disagree. The past two years have shown nothing but provocations, open hostility, and threats of war.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
Yet US military deaths and killing (people killed by our military) is down compared to the Bush and Obama eras. Not a coincidence.
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
We know that you don't consider Iran attacking civilian ships (tankers)
I don't know about the tanker, but they claim it is not them. And they claim the drone was in their airspace, they even have the pieces (as they say, that may be false). They may be lying, telling the truth, half-truth, etc. US may be lying on it too, deliberately flying a drone in Iran airspace so it gets shot, then claiming it was on international waters. So, you want to go at war with this? Remember when US had "proof" that Iraq was harvesting WMDs? They were never found, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and several thousands of American soldiers died, for that lie. You want to do that again?
I've already said I do not. Can you answer my questions?
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
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Le centriste wrote:
It may end up the other way. Everyone off better without the US.
Yet whenever Trump mentioned anything about leaving the UN or NATO your governments cried like scared little lambs. Didja wonder why?
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
your governments cried like scared little lambs
I did not vote for this government. The little trust I had in them kind of died lately.
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Le centriste wrote:
But going to war over this is a mistake.
What is the official "Le centriste" litmus test for acts of war? Obviously you'd consider a retaliatory US airstrike against Iranian missile sites an act of war because you already said so. We know that you don't consider Iran attacking civilian ships (tankers) and shooting down unmanned US military aircraft to rise to the level of "act of war". What if Iran: Shoots at a civilian airliner? Shoots down a civilian airliner? Shoots at a manned US military aircraft? Shoots down a manned US military aircraft? Bombs a US military base? Fires missiles at Israel? Arrest, convict, execute a bunch of Americans in Iran? Do any of those pass the "Le centriste" test that would warrant a military response?
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Shoots at a civilian airliner?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Shoots down a civilian airliner?
That would be bad and would obviously call for retaliation.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Shoots at a manned US military aircraft? Shoots down a manned US military aircraft? Bombs a US military base? Fires missiles at Israel?
Obviously acts of war.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Arrest, convict, execute a bunch of Americans in Iran?
It depends, if they committed crimes agains Iran law, it is their problem. If they capture Americans from embassy, missions, etc. that obviously would call for retaliation. But, none of it has happened yet.
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I've already said I do not. Can you answer my questions?
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
I answered on another post. What about you answer mine?
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Yet US military deaths and killing (people killed by our military) is down compared to the Bush and Obama eras. Not a coincidence.
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
Assuming that's true, at best that just shows that he hasn't started any new wars yet. It isn't much of an indicator that he is behaving carefully on the world stage.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
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I answered on another post. What about you answer mine?
Le centriste wrote:
What about you answer mine?
I'd prefer the US not go to war with Iran (or anyone else)... ever. But sometimes in life, we don't get what we want. I do not think that the Iranian attacks on tankers warrant US military retaliation. Shooting down a US drone is borderline... 1) I doubt the Iranians knew it was unmanned. 2) Regardless of what we're saying to the press, the US knows exactly where the drone was when struck. Could be one of those cases where there is disagreement about whether it's international airspace or not. I suspect the truth will come out in time. All things considered... I do not think that the Iranian attack on the drone warrants US military retaliation.
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
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Assuming that's true, at best that just shows that he hasn't started any new wars yet. It isn't much of an indicator that he is behaving carefully on the world stage.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
I think it means that some of the world's troublemakers are a little panicky about what Trump might do. It keeps them in check. I'm OK with that.
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
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Le centriste wrote:
What about you answer mine?
I'd prefer the US not go to war with Iran (or anyone else)... ever. But sometimes in life, we don't get what we want. I do not think that the Iranian attacks on tankers warrant US military retaliation. Shooting down a US drone is borderline... 1) I doubt the Iranians knew it was unmanned. 2) Regardless of what we're saying to the press, the US knows exactly where the drone was when struck. Could be one of those cases where there is disagreement about whether it's international airspace or not. I suspect the truth will come out in time. All things considered... I do not think that the Iranian attack on the drone warrants US military retaliation.
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I'd prefer the US not go to war with Iran (or anyone else)... ever. But sometimes in life, we don't get what we want. I do not think that the Iranian attacks on tankers warrant US military retaliation. Shooting down a US drone is borderline... 1) I doubt the Iranians knew it was unmanned. 2) Regardless of what we're saying to the press, the US knows exactly where the drone was when struck. Could be one of those cases where there is disagreement about whether it's international airspace or not. I suspect the truth will come out in time. All things considered... I do not think that the Iranian attack on the drone warrants US military retaliation.
:thumbsup: I saw on Twitter that an official recognize the drone was in Iranian airspace. But that may false too. We will see the development of the story. All things said, we should always keep an eye on Iran. They are dangerous. The Iran Deal was keeping them at bay, but now that the deal is broken...
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I think it means that some of the world's troublemakers are a little panicky about what Trump might do. It keeps them in check. I'm OK with that.
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
Being unpredictable just makes him dangerous - to everyone. And after 2 1/2 years of this nonsense, there is no indication that's it's keeping anyone "in check".
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
I'd prefer the US not go to war with Iran (or anyone else)... ever. But sometimes in life, we don't get what we want. I do not think that the Iranian attacks on tankers warrant US military retaliation. Shooting down a US drone is borderline... 1) I doubt the Iranians knew it was unmanned. 2) Regardless of what we're saying to the press, the US knows exactly where the drone was when struck. Could be one of those cases where there is disagreement about whether it's international airspace or not. I suspect the truth will come out in time. All things considered... I do not think that the Iranian attack on the drone warrants US military retaliation.
:thumbsup: I saw on Twitter that an official recognize the drone was in Iranian airspace. But that may false too. We will see the development of the story. All things said, we should always keep an eye on Iran. They are dangerous. The Iran Deal was keeping them at bay, but now that the deal is broken...
Le centriste wrote:
The Iran Deal was keeping them at bay, but now that the deal is broken...
Don't be naive... that deal was coddling them and trying to buy security. They never stopped supporting terror and never even slowed down developing nuclear weapons.
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
your governments cried like scared little lambs
I did not vote for this government. The little trust I had in them kind of died lately.
Why? What happened?
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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Being unpredictable just makes him dangerous - to everyone. And after 2 1/2 years of this nonsense, there is no indication that's it's keeping anyone "in check".
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
Majerus wrote:
there is no indication that's it's keeping anyone "in check".
Sure there is - you just refuse to believe it.
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
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Majerus wrote:
there is no indication that's it's keeping anyone "in check".
Sure there is - you just refuse to believe it.
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
So who's being kept in check?
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
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So who's being kept in check?
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
All the whack jobs who would have done stupid shit but didn't.
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.