AstraZeneca: screwing the pooch

[W Balboos GHB]

5teveH wrote:

There is no reason why the UK Government would be anything other than factual

I guess you missed the last decade or so of politics? I really don't care how many Brits have been stabbed with AZ - the point is (read my original post) that they gave outdated data - which to any rational investigator is a red-flag.

5teveH wrote:

and, in fact, it is already being used in 70 countries.

And that is possibly why the EU is bitching about not getting there share? Don't blame the press for the shit-storm: they didn't submit AZ's vaccine data for them. AZ's a company and there's money at stake no matter how you slice this - and you might immediately bring to mind VW's screwing with emissions data (with rigged vehicle computers) to increase sales. Industry misrepresenting data is not exactly something new. One thing that still keeps coming up: disappeared data, such as reported ineffectiveness for older recipients. No counter data has come up - just bad press quashed. So 28 million UK recipients only proves it doesn't kill off the recipients. But why should anyone trust a company that submitted questionable data when several suitable alternatives are already available and in over 125 Million arms in the US, alone? Fifty million fully vaccinated. Their troubles have been going on for a while and of their own doing[^]

Ravings en masse^

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

[W Balboos GHB]

Yes - it is a conspiracy. More than that - the most successful self-fulfilling prophecy of all times. Apparently you've bought in to the conspiracy - you settle down in that section of North America. Or is that simply explained away by your simply a masochist ?

Ravings en masse^

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

[Jorgen Andersson]

BRUCE MacKINNON CARTOON: March 17, 2021 | Editorial-Cartoons | Opinion | The Journal Pioneer[^]

Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello

[5teveH]

You obviously have a problem with AstraZeneca - and it doesn't seem like there's anything anyone can say that will make you even consider that their vaccine is just as effective and safe as the other vaccines on offer. So I give up on that one. :sigh: As for:

Quote:

I guess you missed the last decade or so of politics?

As someone who has never voted Conservative in my whole life, I am not inclined to defend the current UK Conservative Government. They have completely f*cked up the handling of the pandemic - managing to inflict maximum damage on the economy at the same time as having almost the worst record for deaths in the world. They have failed at nearly every step: totally inadequate border controls; farcical track and trace system; total PPE disaster; and ignoring the blindingly obvious second wave. So, I don't need to go back a decade. A year will do. :( But when the UK is vaccinating more people per hour, (with AstraZeneca), than are in the US trial, I'm going to take real world results as my source of data. Simples! :-D

[GuyThiebaut]

Having worked in both genetics and medical data analysis I must say I am not surprised. I'm also not really surprised that people have so much trust in these companies either, as their marketing budgets are usually huge.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

― Christopher Hitchens

[W Balboos GHB]

5teveH wrote:

You obviously have a problem with AstraZeneca

I really couldn't give two shits about Astra-Zeneca. Or even one. I guess that comments a way for you to dodge admitting that they :elephant:ed the submission by sending old data.

5teveH wrote:

But when the UK is vaccinating more people per hour, (with AstraZeneca),

Somehow you've decided the best way you can distract from just accepting facts (as in the data they submitted is on them and no one else) you decide to distract with some sort of contest. But - why not do the freakin' math? UK started vaccinating before US. The US's headcount for those vaccinated is approaching twice the entire population of the UK. They're not doing more per any unit of time - and what difference does it make? Except to distract form the topic and make you feel good about yourself (which is odd). As per your support of Labor - that party seems to have only just (perhaps?) started recovering from some serious institutional sickness - institutional antisemitism starting at the top. Hardly much different then the far right. Whatever you may think is wrong with the Conservatives, at least they haven't decayed anywhere near as deeply from within.

Ravings en masse^

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

[Jorgen Andersson]

W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:

they [mastadon] ed the submission by sending old data

Well, apparently, that's not the problem. At least not according to Fauci. Fauci discusses concerns about Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine data | GMA[^] The problem seems to be a press release by AZ that contains different (older?) data. Not that I would have decrypted that from the press release by NIAID[^] And for completeness: https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centre/press-releases.html[^] A fuckup nevertheless, but perhaps not at the same magnitude as some media makes of it.

Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello

[5teveH]

W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:

I really couldn't give two sh*ts about Astra-Zeneca

So why start the discussion? :confused:

W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:

Somehow you've decided the best way you can distract from just accepting facts (as in the data they submitted is on them and no one else) you decide to distract with some sort of contest. But - why not do the freakin' math? UK started vaccinating before US. The US's headcount for those vaccinated is approaching twice the entire population of the UK. They're not doing more per any unit of time - and what difference does it make? Except to distract form the topic and make you feel good about yourself (which is odd).

Go back and read my post again. I was comparing the number of UK AstraZeneca vaccinations per hour with the US AstraZeneca trial. Not with US vaccinations. Yes, I agree, it would be "odd" if I saw this as some sort of contest. But I don't. My aim was to point out that looking at the results of 15 million vaccinations is more reliable than looking at a trial of 30,000. I don't see how that is "distracting from accepting the facts". Surely, it's better to look at the bigger sample when determining facts.

W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:

As per your support of Labor

Again, go back and read my post. Where did I say I support Labour? :sigh: Just so you know where I'm coming from. I have suffered at the hands of the press and have an inherent distrust of them. I hate that they try to sensationalise everything - and I feel almost duty bound to fact-check any promotion of stories from the press and, if possible, provide more reliable sources of information. I really can't see how this story did any good - for anyone. It just undermines confidence in the vaccine. ..... :java:

[W Balboos GHB]

5teveH wrote:

Just so you know where I'm coming from. I have suffered at the hands of the press and have an inherent distrust of them. I hate that they try to sensationalise everything - and I feel almost duty bound to fact-check any promotion of stories from the press and, if possible, provide more reliable sources of information. I really can't see how this story did any good - for anyone. It just undermines confidence in the vaccine.

I take my data from not only the media (famous for lying by omission - like FoxNews or the BBC) - but from somewhat professional sources (such as MedScape) that talk about these items usually well before the press releases, often have real data, and give both sides to, for example, my view of the way AZ handled this attempt at, well honestly, expanding their potential market (or using US sources, if they gave it EUA, to repair their reputation). Jorgen's post (just above these) shows a more extensive knowledge of the facts. AZ played some games with this US rollout. Put it this way - while CDC, FDA, and other US Federal watchdogs try to repair the horrible damage done to them by politicizing them in the prior four years, they're not going to cut a single corner. In particular, when a mistake can mean serious life-long (or life-ending) consequences. The key term from the MedScape article (not the emphasis) was "transparency" and 'unprecedented blind-siding' with the press release. You need to register for MedScape to get to the articles - and then you can get a flow of reasonably technical articles before the press debauche's them. I also get Chemical and Engineering News (American Chemical Society) and it will have an altogether different slant on the progress as it is more process oriented - such as concepts of how one would hope to target an organism that mutates rapidly . . . . six months ago.

Ravings en masse^

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

[charlieg]

a rare instance of some people doing their jobs. I would love to know all of the times scientists, engineers, accountants cooked the data due to "pressure." Pressure from management, pressure from colleagues, pressure from politicians....

Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759