Bitcoins: A Perspective
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The first is limited in supply, the other is more like fiat and costs nothing to produce.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
The first is limited in supply
Who is limiting the supply of Bitcoins?
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
the other is more like fiat and costs nothing to produce
Arcade Tokens definitely cost 'something' to produce. It may not be much, but it's probably more than the cost of producing a Bitcoin. So an Arcade Token does have an intrinsic value - whereas a Bitcoin's value is artificial, resulting completely from how it is managed/marketed.
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The first is limited in supply, the other is more like fiat and costs nothing to produce.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
like fiat and costs nothing to produce.
Unfortunately, if you check into bitcoin mining, the cost of production is a lot of electricity (and concomitant pollution). My perspective: the cost of production is high and produces nothing.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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..or you research it yourself, instead of waiting for the universe to give you the explanation it "owes" you :D
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
I did research it. The common explanations always deteriorate into hand-waving.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Before there were BitCoins there were Arcade Tokens !
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Before their were bitcoins there were tire dump fires. The latter were replaced due to not being ecologically destructive enough vs the amount of energy wasted via Proof of Pollution based mining.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
The first is limited in supply
Who is limiting the supply of Bitcoins?
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
the other is more like fiat and costs nothing to produce
Arcade Tokens definitely cost 'something' to produce. It may not be much, but it's probably more than the cost of producing a Bitcoin. So an Arcade Token does have an intrinsic value - whereas a Bitcoin's value is artificial, resulting completely from how it is managed/marketed.
5teveH wrote:
Who is limiting the supply of Bitcoins?
Math. Just so you know where to complain :D
5teveH wrote:
Arcade Tokens definitely cost 'something' to produce. It may not be much, but it's probably more than the cost of producing a Bitcoin
You're measurably wrong. BC's cost a lot of energy to mine; most of us can't afford that.
5teveH wrote:
So an Arcade Token does have an intrinsic value
Very little, since plastic is cheap. BC has an intrinsic value since it has a use for us (that's the basis of intrinsic value, how much uses do we have and what demand does that generate?) BC's "intrinsic" value is rising, because supply is limited and demand rising.
5teveH wrote:
whereas a Bitcoin's value is artificial, resulting completely from how it is managed/marketed.
You may want to pick up a few books explaining basic economics. Also, there's no company that "owns" BC, so there's no budget for marketing. But go ahead, explain me how the way the ECB manages "money" is superiour to decentralized non-managing based on math. :)
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
like fiat and costs nothing to produce.
Unfortunately, if you check into bitcoin mining, the cost of production is a lot of electricity (and concomitant pollution). My perspective: the cost of production is high and produces nothing.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Unfortunately, if you check into bitcoin mining, the cost of production is a lot of electricity (and concomitant pollution).
So, we can only spend (solar, wind) energy on stuff that helps us as humanity? ..and how are you so certain that it is not worth the pollution to have a "safe storage of value" (which fiat isn't, and is part of the definition of money!)
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
My perspective: the cost of production is high and produces nothing.
Lots of followers of Keynes here, but they all drop their faith in the man when it comes to BC :D Even fake money works as money, proven by history - the difference being that BC isn't fiat and doesn't require "belief", nor "trust". Just to be clear; I don't own BC, don't say anyone should or should not, just reasoning from theory. I'm a silverbug. I don't care whether BC becomes a success or not. Just pointing out that it already is.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Unfortunately, if you check into bitcoin mining, the cost of production is a lot of electricity (and concomitant pollution).
So, we can only spend (solar, wind) energy on stuff that helps us as humanity? ..and how are you so certain that it is not worth the pollution to have a "safe storage of value" (which fiat isn't, and is part of the definition of money!)
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
My perspective: the cost of production is high and produces nothing.
Lots of followers of Keynes here, but they all drop their faith in the man when it comes to BC :D Even fake money works as money, proven by history - the difference being that BC isn't fiat and doesn't require "belief", nor "trust". Just to be clear; I don't own BC, don't say anyone should or should not, just reasoning from theory. I'm a silverbug. I don't care whether BC becomes a success or not. Just pointing out that it already is.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
So, we can only spend (solar, wind) energy on stuff that helps us as humanity?
What makes you think the majority of bitcoin mining is via solar/wind? Look it up![^] Wait - I'll save you a click:
Quote:
Bitcoin produces 36.95 megatons of carbon dioxide (CO2) annually (comparable to New Zealand) and it is estimated that in 30 years Bitcoin could alone increase global temperatures 2 degrees Celsius. About 65 percent of cryptocurrency mining occurs in China, where electricity is cheaper.Mar 26, 2021
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
BC isn't fiat and doesn't require "belief", nor "trust".
Perhaps you don't understand what "belief" means - because that's all it has - belief that it will increase in value.*
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Even fake money works as money, proven by history
I suggest you get a few extra ink or toner cartridges and make some history, yourself! Let me know how it works out . . .
* Temporarily ignoring it's use for extortion and general criminal activities, making them less burdensome for the criminals."The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
So, we can only spend (solar, wind) energy on stuff that helps us as humanity?
What makes you think the majority of bitcoin mining is via solar/wind? Look it up![^] Wait - I'll save you a click:
Quote:
Bitcoin produces 36.95 megatons of carbon dioxide (CO2) annually (comparable to New Zealand) and it is estimated that in 30 years Bitcoin could alone increase global temperatures 2 degrees Celsius. About 65 percent of cryptocurrency mining occurs in China, where electricity is cheaper.Mar 26, 2021
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
BC isn't fiat and doesn't require "belief", nor "trust".
Perhaps you don't understand what "belief" means - because that's all it has - belief that it will increase in value.*
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Even fake money works as money, proven by history
I suggest you get a few extra ink or toner cartridges and make some history, yourself! Let me know how it works out . . .
* Temporarily ignoring it's use for extortion and general criminal activities, making them less burdensome for the criminals."The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
What makes you think the majority of bitcoin mining is via solar/wind?
I did not claim that, did I? But yes, I got solar panels last month, and saves me a few bucks. And not unthinkable that someone else is using that to "mine".
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Perhaps you don't understand what "belief" means
As a former Catholic, anything I cannot measure or verify, or any experiment that is not repeatable, is an uncertainty. Anything beyond, is belief. Anything measured is also not valid as proof, but only as good as the measurement, meaning there'll be a margin of error.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
belief that it will increase in value.*
Now you confusing hype with value; yes, there's a hype, and yes, people buying it because it goes up. As a silverbug I can tell you that you don't buy on the way up, but on the way down. Regardless of that speculation (gambling), it has value as a limited verifyable trade-token, like the wooden sticks with carvings we once used. Makes the wood it's carved in more valuable, but like BC, no "intrinsic" value, no real commodity, just a trading token.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
I suggest you get a few extra ink or toner cartridges and make some history, yourself! Let me know how it works out . . .
Won't be much demand for fiat you give out, since you backing it. That doesn't hold for nations, see "Rentenmark".
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
making them less burdensome for the criminals.
The most used currency in criminal circuits is the US$. Because they easy to trade. Easier than BC, gold and diamonds. So, the man buying a pizza for 10.000 BC's was a criminal? Explain to this silverbug; (and I am dating a criminal), why would she favor BC over cash US$?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
What makes you think the majority of bitcoin mining is via solar/wind?
I did not claim that, did I? But yes, I got solar panels last month, and saves me a few bucks. And not unthinkable that someone else is using that to "mine".
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Perhaps you don't understand what "belief" means
As a former Catholic, anything I cannot measure or verify, or any experiment that is not repeatable, is an uncertainty. Anything beyond, is belief. Anything measured is also not valid as proof, but only as good as the measurement, meaning there'll be a margin of error.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
belief that it will increase in value.*
Now you confusing hype with value; yes, there's a hype, and yes, people buying it because it goes up. As a silverbug I can tell you that you don't buy on the way up, but on the way down. Regardless of that speculation (gambling), it has value as a limited verifyable trade-token, like the wooden sticks with carvings we once used. Makes the wood it's carved in more valuable, but like BC, no "intrinsic" value, no real commodity, just a trading token.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
I suggest you get a few extra ink or toner cartridges and make some history, yourself! Let me know how it works out . . .
Won't be much demand for fiat you give out, since you backing it. That doesn't hold for nations, see "Rentenmark".
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
making them less burdensome for the criminals.
The most used currency in criminal circuits is the US$. Because they easy to trade. Easier than BC, gold and diamonds. So, the man buying a pizza for 10.000 BC's was a criminal? Explain to this silverbug; (and I am dating a criminal), why would she favor BC over cash US$?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Thread expanding too much - I'll just hit a couple or so:
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
I did not claim that, did I? But yes, I got solar panels last month, and saves me a few bucks. And not unthinkable that someone else is using that to "mine".
Bringing that into the conversation implied it was a relevant component of fuel the bitmining. it's not. Some cases, here, and there, but mostly set up where power is cheapest.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
As a silverbug I can tell you that you don't buy on the way up, but on the way down. Regardless of that speculation (gambling), it has value as a limited verifyable trade-token, like the wooden sticks with carvings we once used. Makes the wood it's carved in more valuable, but like BC, no "intrinsic" value, no real commodity, just a trading token.
My first market trading was commodity options, not stocks and bonds. Mostly silver and gold. A bit of oil. I first heard the term silverbug in that context. But the majority of your implications are a mess: silver isn't just a token - it's a useful commodity. Particularly in the days of 'real photography' but as a self-proclaimed "silverbug" you should have some understanding of what it is you are dealing with[^]. Perhaps you do, but you surely don't sound like it. Silver has real value because it is used for things.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
The most used currency in criminal circuits is the US$. Because they easy to trade. Easier than BC, gold and diamonds.
A silly distraction of a statement. When your data's held hostages, what do the sleaze want to be paid with? And the online drug trade loves it to. And people who don't want to pay taxes to support pay for the infrastructure they exploit. So why would a criminal prefer BC to cash. The obvious point that you are well aware of: it cannot be traced. Hoards of wealth, if in real currency, is documented (unless you stuff your mattress). It's a way to figure out who's involved with illegal traffic - how does an unemployed surfer afford a Maserati ? The entire money laundering industry is to get rid of half the problem: where did that money come from. It may be taxed but they keep mos
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Thread expanding too much - I'll just hit a couple or so:
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
I did not claim that, did I? But yes, I got solar panels last month, and saves me a few bucks. And not unthinkable that someone else is using that to "mine".
Bringing that into the conversation implied it was a relevant component of fuel the bitmining. it's not. Some cases, here, and there, but mostly set up where power is cheapest.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
As a silverbug I can tell you that you don't buy on the way up, but on the way down. Regardless of that speculation (gambling), it has value as a limited verifyable trade-token, like the wooden sticks with carvings we once used. Makes the wood it's carved in more valuable, but like BC, no "intrinsic" value, no real commodity, just a trading token.
My first market trading was commodity options, not stocks and bonds. Mostly silver and gold. A bit of oil. I first heard the term silverbug in that context. But the majority of your implications are a mess: silver isn't just a token - it's a useful commodity. Particularly in the days of 'real photography' but as a self-proclaimed "silverbug" you should have some understanding of what it is you are dealing with[^]. Perhaps you do, but you surely don't sound like it. Silver has real value because it is used for things.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
The most used currency in criminal circuits is the US$. Because they easy to trade. Easier than BC, gold and diamonds.
A silly distraction of a statement. When your data's held hostages, what do the sleaze want to be paid with? And the online drug trade loves it to. And people who don't want to pay taxes to support pay for the infrastructure they exploit. So why would a criminal prefer BC to cash. The obvious point that you are well aware of: it cannot be traced. Hoards of wealth, if in real currency, is documented (unless you stuff your mattress). It's a way to figure out who's involved with illegal traffic - how does an unemployed surfer afford a Maserati ? The entire money laundering industry is to get rid of half the problem: where did that money come from. It may be taxed but they keep mos
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Thread expanding too much
And I'm at my limit anyway; this state is half awake and half dreaming, and gets me in trouble. I *need* to complete the post though.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Bringing that into the conversation implied it was a relevant component of fuel the bitmining. it's not. Some cases, here, and there, but mostly set up where power is cheapest.
Fuel cost is relevant, as you admitted. Mining costs resources.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
My first market trading was commodity options, not stocks and bonds. Mostly silver and gold. A bit of oil. I first heard the term silverbug in that context. But the majority of your implications are a mess: silver isn't just a token - it's a useful commodity.
Yes! It is a thing like wood would be, and *that* is what makes it money! It is just lighter and easier to divide than wood would be. Gold, moreso than silver. That is what makes it money; utilization. And the more uses we have for it, the higher the demand.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Perhaps you do, but you surely don't sound like it. Silver has real value because it is used for things.
Just some 50 years of experience, stats, and even before it had that "real use"; if translated, "silver" and "money" in some languages the same. You're comparing wood with the tally stick :)
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
When your data's held hostages, what do the sleaze want to be paid with?
Because most crime is data held hostage ofc. No, most crime is paid for in US$. Because most of the world accepts those without question.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
It's a way to figure out who's involved with illegal traffic - how does an unemployed surfer afford a Maserati ?
He's a mechanic, bought a wreck and restored it. Who are you as a government to question and track that? THAT is why I pay in silver. No records, no questions. And with my government giving the example, I shall follow their lead.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
where did that money come from
Yes; the bank asked me that question when I wanted to withdraw part of my savings. The answer was whoring and drugs. And living in a country where that's al