unpopular opinion: Rust: not a fan
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I don't know why people like it. It's like they took a perfectly good language (C) and pythonized it. No, thankfully it doesn't use significant whitespace, but I get the impression that whoever designed Rust actually hates the C language family and wants bad things to happen to them. You can keep this nonsense. If I wanted training wheels, I'd use VB. Joy. Yet another language I get to learn enough of simply to port things away into a proper language. Edited to add: anybody who designs a grammar with this construction "fn main()" needs to have their compiler taken away and forced to use scripting languages until they can prove to the world that they can use context free grammars properly
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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When was the last time you spent 14 days continuous, with no computer, programming or programming type projects? 7 days?
Why would I do that? Edited to add: I think I was 7.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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I don't know why people like it. It's like they took a perfectly good language (C) and pythonized it. No, thankfully it doesn't use significant whitespace, but I get the impression that whoever designed Rust actually hates the C language family and wants bad things to happen to them. You can keep this nonsense. If I wanted training wheels, I'd use VB. Joy. Yet another language I get to learn enough of simply to port things away into a proper language. Edited to add: anybody who designs a grammar with this construction "fn main()" needs to have their compiler taken away and forced to use scripting languages until they can prove to the world that they can use context free grammars properly
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
When was the last time you spent 14 days continuous, with no computer, programming or programming type projects? 7 days?
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I don't know why people like it. It's like they took a perfectly good language (C) and pythonized it. No, thankfully it doesn't use significant whitespace, but I get the impression that whoever designed Rust actually hates the C language family and wants bad things to happen to them. You can keep this nonsense. If I wanted training wheels, I'd use VB. Joy. Yet another language I get to learn enough of simply to port things away into a proper language. Edited to add: anybody who designs a grammar with this construction "fn main()" needs to have their compiler taken away and forced to use scripting languages until they can prove to the world that they can use context free grammars properly
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
Saying that you were investigating it prompted me to also read its documentation more carefully. I got about halfway through and browsed the rest to come to much the same conclusion as you, though I wouldn't be quite as nasty about it. :-D
HtC wrote:
whoever designed Rust actually hates the C language family
Probably so. The author of this rant[^] works on Rust.
HtC wrote:
If I wanted training wheels, I'd use VB.
They're hardly the only ones who think people need training wheels--and will tell you that it's for your own good. Rust's designers must have had bad experiences with C: bugs involving memory leaks, invalid pointers, and critical regions. These things must be addressed, but they do it in a condescending way. Curiously, they don't have classes, only "traits" (similar to Java's interfaces, or multiply inherited pure virtual base classes in C++).
HtC wrote:
Yet another language I get to learn enough of simply to port things away into a proper language.
Porting won't be easy. Idiomatic Rust is rather different than C++, say, so a lot of code would have to be reorganized. I think it would be easier to just understand the spec and rewrite from scratch in the target language. I'm amused that Linux wants to start using it. Talk about a culture clash. C++ would make far more sense, but maybe the Linux crowd also feel that C has abused them.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.<p><a href="https://github.com/GregUtas/robust-services-core/blob/master/README.md">Robust Services Core</a>
<em>The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.</em></p> -
I don't know why people like it. It's like they took a perfectly good language (C) and pythonized it. No, thankfully it doesn't use significant whitespace, but I get the impression that whoever designed Rust actually hates the C language family and wants bad things to happen to them. You can keep this nonsense. If I wanted training wheels, I'd use VB. Joy. Yet another language I get to learn enough of simply to port things away into a proper language. Edited to add: anybody who designs a grammar with this construction "fn main()" needs to have their compiler taken away and forced to use scripting languages until they can prove to the world that they can use context free grammars properly
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
I started reading the rust documentation -- in the first section it says that by default variables are immutable. Hokay ... it appears the inventors of the language didn't know what "variable" means and didn't know how to type "dictionary.com" in their browser. I didn't feel the need to read further ...
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Saying that you were investigating it prompted me to also read its documentation more carefully. I got about halfway through and browsed the rest to come to much the same conclusion as you, though I wouldn't be quite as nasty about it. :-D
HtC wrote:
whoever designed Rust actually hates the C language family
Probably so. The author of this rant[^] works on Rust.
HtC wrote:
If I wanted training wheels, I'd use VB.
They're hardly the only ones who think people need training wheels--and will tell you that it's for your own good. Rust's designers must have had bad experiences with C: bugs involving memory leaks, invalid pointers, and critical regions. These things must be addressed, but they do it in a condescending way. Curiously, they don't have classes, only "traits" (similar to Java's interfaces, or multiply inherited pure virtual base classes in C++).
HtC wrote:
Yet another language I get to learn enough of simply to port things away into a proper language.
Porting won't be easy. Idiomatic Rust is rather different than C++, say, so a lot of code would have to be reorganized. I think it would be easier to just understand the spec and rewrite from scratch in the target language. I'm amused that Linux wants to start using it. Talk about a culture clash. C++ would make far more sense, but maybe the Linux crowd also feel that C has abused them.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.Greg Utas wrote:
Talk about a culture clash. C++ would make far more sense, but maybe the Linux crowd also feel that C has abused them
It won't happen: Linus hates C++. He thinks that C++ is like a box of chocolates: you never know what you are gonna get.
...
one = 1;
two = 2;
x = one + two;In C++ '+' can be redefined to do whatever you want. I see his point but any language that doesn't allow you to shoot yourself in the foot occasionally is probably too boring. In the words of Spider-Man: "with great power comes great responsibility" :)
Mircea
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Saying that you were investigating it prompted me to also read its documentation more carefully. I got about halfway through and browsed the rest to come to much the same conclusion as you, though I wouldn't be quite as nasty about it. :-D
HtC wrote:
whoever designed Rust actually hates the C language family
Probably so. The author of this rant[^] works on Rust.
HtC wrote:
If I wanted training wheels, I'd use VB.
They're hardly the only ones who think people need training wheels--and will tell you that it's for your own good. Rust's designers must have had bad experiences with C: bugs involving memory leaks, invalid pointers, and critical regions. These things must be addressed, but they do it in a condescending way. Curiously, they don't have classes, only "traits" (similar to Java's interfaces, or multiply inherited pure virtual base classes in C++).
HtC wrote:
Yet another language I get to learn enough of simply to port things away into a proper language.
Porting won't be easy. Idiomatic Rust is rather different than C++, say, so a lot of code would have to be reorganized. I think it would be easier to just understand the spec and rewrite from scratch in the target language. I'm amused that Linux wants to start using it. Talk about a culture clash. C++ would make far more sense, but maybe the Linux crowd also feel that C has abused them.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.Greg Utas wrote:
I'm amused that Linux wants to start using it. Talk about a culture clash. C++ would make far more sense, but maybe the Linux crowd also feel that C has abused them.
Linus hates the way some C++ features generate huge amounts of magic code behind the scenes that makes it difficult to reason about low level performance impacts.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius
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Greg Utas wrote:
Talk about a culture clash. C++ would make far more sense, but maybe the Linux crowd also feel that C has abused them
It won't happen: Linus hates C++. He thinks that C++ is like a box of chocolates: you never know what you are gonna get.
...
one = 1;
two = 2;
x = one + two;In C++ '+' can be redefined to do whatever you want. I see his point but any language that doesn't allow you to shoot yourself in the foot occasionally is probably too boring. In the words of Spider-Man: "with great power comes great responsibility" :)
Mircea
Yes, I've read that Linus hates C++. Which is why it won't happen, even though it makes sense. "Don't know what you're going to get" is mostly nonsense. Some naughty C++ code must have triggered him years ago.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
Greg Utas wrote:
I'm amused that Linux wants to start using it. Talk about a culture clash. C++ would make far more sense, but maybe the Linux crowd also feel that C has abused them.
Linus hates the way some C++ features generate huge amounts of magic code behind the scenes that makes it difficult to reason about low level performance impacts.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius
Anything that's critical to performance has to be measured and can typically be rectified. I think the main problem is that almost all the Unix types are hackers at heart, comfortable with spaghetti code.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
I started reading the rust documentation -- in the first section it says that by default variables are immutable. Hokay ... it appears the inventors of the language didn't know what "variable" means and didn't know how to type "dictionary.com" in their browser. I didn't feel the need to read further ...
All they did was make C/C++
constthe default so that you have use the equivalent ofmutableif it's not constant.Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
I started reading the rust documentation -- in the first section it says that by default variables are immutable. Hokay ... it appears the inventors of the language didn't know what "variable" means and didn't know how to type "dictionary.com" in their browser. I didn't feel the need to read further ...
The variables may be immutable, but that just means you can't modify the state of the variable. Strings in dotNet and Java are immutable but you can assign a new value to the variable. Immutability has huge advantages in multi-processing, whether it be on a single core or multiple cores. These advantages all resolve around proving the code is correct. Note - performance is not an advantage in this case. Since Rust is designed to be a system level language that supports multi-core systems, making all variables immutable greatly simplifies development.
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I don't know why people like it. It's like they took a perfectly good language (C) and pythonized it. No, thankfully it doesn't use significant whitespace, but I get the impression that whoever designed Rust actually hates the C language family and wants bad things to happen to them. You can keep this nonsense. If I wanted training wheels, I'd use VB. Joy. Yet another language I get to learn enough of simply to port things away into a proper language. Edited to add: anybody who designs a grammar with this construction "fn main()" needs to have their compiler taken away and forced to use scripting languages until they can prove to the world that they can use context free grammars properly
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
Coming from a history of C/C++ & even C#, I too felt the way you do about Rust when I first started looking at it. And, I also felt like the syntax is ugly & odd. However, if you look at it from the viewpoint of what the Rust developers were actually trying to fix, it is quite amazing. I think that reading this book is what really opened my eyes to it: Rust for Rustaceans: Idiomatic Programming for Experienced Developers[^] That books delves into what the problems were that have occurred to C/C++ and how the language and compilers have been manipulated to make them end-all be-all even at the risk of code becoming breakable & unsecure. But, it's a lot to go into and if you're happy with C then there is no reason you would really look into it. I'm always just curious about what they are really trying to do at the foundations.
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Saying that you were investigating it prompted me to also read its documentation more carefully. I got about halfway through and browsed the rest to come to much the same conclusion as you, though I wouldn't be quite as nasty about it. :-D
HtC wrote:
whoever designed Rust actually hates the C language family
Probably so. The author of this rant[^] works on Rust.
HtC wrote:
If I wanted training wheels, I'd use VB.
They're hardly the only ones who think people need training wheels--and will tell you that it's for your own good. Rust's designers must have had bad experiences with C: bugs involving memory leaks, invalid pointers, and critical regions. These things must be addressed, but they do it in a condescending way. Curiously, they don't have classes, only "traits" (similar to Java's interfaces, or multiply inherited pure virtual base classes in C++).
HtC wrote:
Yet another language I get to learn enough of simply to port things away into a proper language.
Porting won't be easy. Idiomatic Rust is rather different than C++, say, so a lot of code would have to be reorganized. I think it would be easier to just understand the spec and rewrite from scratch in the target language. I'm amused that Linux wants to start using it. Talk about a culture clash. C++ would make far more sense, but maybe the Linux crowd also feel that C has abused them.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
That article (rant) that you mentioned is really interesting & makes a great point about C being not just a language but a protocol (since you have to learn C if you want to make any system calls). That's really a great article. Thanks for sharing.
In fairness, it was Kent who originally posted that link. It was a fun read that made some good points.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
Coming from a history of C/C++ & even C#, I too felt the way you do about Rust when I first started looking at it. And, I also felt like the syntax is ugly & odd. However, if you look at it from the viewpoint of what the Rust developers were actually trying to fix, it is quite amazing. I think that reading this book is what really opened my eyes to it: Rust for Rustaceans: Idiomatic Programming for Experienced Developers[^] That books delves into what the problems were that have occurred to C/C++ and how the language and compilers have been manipulated to make them end-all be-all even at the risk of code becoming breakable & unsecure. But, it's a lot to go into and if you're happy with C then there is no reason you would really look into it. I'm always just curious about what they are really trying to do at the foundations.
Thank you for that. Maybe it will open my eyes, and even change my mind. I've been looking for good material on Rust.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
-
I don't know why people like it. It's like they took a perfectly good language (C) and pythonized it. No, thankfully it doesn't use significant whitespace, but I get the impression that whoever designed Rust actually hates the C language family and wants bad things to happen to them. You can keep this nonsense. If I wanted training wheels, I'd use VB. Joy. Yet another language I get to learn enough of simply to port things away into a proper language. Edited to add: anybody who designs a grammar with this construction "fn main()" needs to have their compiler taken away and forced to use scripting languages until they can prove to the world that they can use context free grammars properly
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
-
I don't know why people like it. It's like they took a perfectly good language (C) and pythonized it. No, thankfully it doesn't use significant whitespace, but I get the impression that whoever designed Rust actually hates the C language family and wants bad things to happen to them. You can keep this nonsense. If I wanted training wheels, I'd use VB. Joy. Yet another language I get to learn enough of simply to port things away into a proper language. Edited to add: anybody who designs a grammar with this construction "fn main()" needs to have their compiler taken away and forced to use scripting languages until they can prove to the world that they can use context free grammars properly
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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I was in total agreement until you wrote:
honey the codewitch wrote:
a perfectly good language (C)
Neither perfect nor good, IMO.
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
Well I was being generous. I prefer C++ myself.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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I started reading the rust documentation -- in the first section it says that by default variables are immutable. Hokay ... it appears the inventors of the language didn't know what "variable" means and didn't know how to type "dictionary.com" in their browser. I didn't feel the need to read further ...
BryanFazekas wrote:
in the first section it says that by default variables are immutable. Hokay ... it appears the inventors of the language didn't know what "variable" means
One rule I remember from my student days: "Constants ain't, variables won't". I have experienced the truth of this rule quite a few times.
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Greg Utas wrote:
Talk about a culture clash. C++ would make far more sense, but maybe the Linux crowd also feel that C has abused them
It won't happen: Linus hates C++. He thinks that C++ is like a box of chocolates: you never know what you are gonna get.
...
one = 1;
two = 2;
x = one + two;In C++ '+' can be redefined to do whatever you want. I see his point but any language that doesn't allow you to shoot yourself in the foot occasionally is probably too boring. In the words of Spider-Man: "with great power comes great responsibility" :)
Mircea
Mircea Neacsu wrote:
In C++ '+' can be redefined to do whatever you want.
I never programmed Forth myself, but a former coworker who was a Forth worshipper (quoting the Scriptures: "Go Forth, and Multiply") showed med how to really obfuscate code: Forth lets you redefine any token. So he redefined '17' to have the value of '5'. That brings the concept of 'off by one' to new levels :-)
