Offshore job drain to india
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Kant wrote: As of 31st March 2002, India had 42 companies at SEI CMM Level 5 assessment. The quality maturity of the Indian software industry can be measured from the fact that already 316 Indian software companies have acquired quality certifications and more companies are in pipeline to do so. I could find a certified spade engineer to build me a high-quality spade. That spade will meet or exceed all the industry standard quality measurements for spades. I hand it to my client; and it turns out what he really wanted was a bucket. I am not saying that Indian software companies are underqualified, or likely to produce low-quality code. What I am saying is that the gulf between the clients, the project managers, and the software engineers is wide enough already, without outsourcing the project to a different country. John www.silveronion.com[^]
John Honan wrote: I am not saying that Indian software companies are underqualified, or likely to produce low-quality code. What I am saying is that the gulf between the clients, the project managers, and the software engineers is wide enough already, without outsourcing the project to a different country. Exactly one of the points I was trying to make (only you said it better :-)) A lot of IT houses do the whole shebang for software - right from analysis to implementation and deployment and maintenance and support. When a project is up for grabs, no company will ship a skilled Indian Systems Analyst (or more) to the UK, put him up for the duration of the Analysis phase in a hotel, then ship him back so his colleagues can implement the software, and then ship the deployment team over from India to install it - it'll end up costing more (potentially), and you lose the ability to communicate, at least partially due to timezone and language issues (not everyone speaks English and/or Indian). Even if you do outsource the development work, you've still got to have some local staff to do the day-to-day business with the company the project is for. And when dealing with some XP-style methodologies where you bring the customer on-site, how do you do that if they are based in a different country? Most customer aren't going to fancy a trip abroad each week just so they can go over user stories with the development team. That's why I think that you can only properly outsource well understood application development, and only where the inevitable loss of communication isn't much of an issue. -- Ian Darling If I was any more loopy, I'd be infinite.
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John Honan wrote: What I am saying is that the gulf between the clients, the project managers, and the software engineers is wide enough already, without outsourcing the project to a different country. I agree with what you saying. But factor is good quality, abundance of IT knowledge employess and above all for less $. I give you an example, when I was in India we worked on project for a US firm. As you know the time difference (10 1/2 hrs) between India and USA, we worked on the project while it's night in US. By our time in the evening (which is morning in US) we deliver the fresh build to US and so that they test it and report any bugs back to US. So it's like work goes on around the clock. So the project which takes 6 months to complete in US and can be completed within 3 months. When Hardware components industry (in Taiwan, China...) can succeed, why not software outsourcing? I'm puzzled here. :confused:
"Whidbey"..."Orcas"...Roadmap
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".Kant wrote: When Hardware components industry (in Taiwan, China...) can succeed, why not software outsourcing? I'm puzzled here. Hardware components are tangible. You can test the quality, measure the rate of production and figure out how many workers you need on the line. Software is intangible. It is difficult to measure the progress of a software project, it is difficult to ascertain that user requirements have been met, more hands on the keyboard does not mean the code will be written quicker. You cannot apply production line methods to software. Software Engineering is not an exact science. John www.silveronion.com[^]
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The ideas of freedom, liberty and leadership of the free world lay on fearless and independent individuals, who are ready to decidate their life to innovation and progress of man kind on all levels of science. This attitude created the myth of the "west". While the rest of the world was riding horses, some even walking on their bare foot; Henry Ford has opened worlds' first car production serial line. When the rest of the world was using blackboards and armada of buerocracts and accountants to create economic models, two pioneers were writing VisiCalc for worlds' first personal computer. This is why common people on the west today enjoy goods, that any emperor would consider luxury just a hundred years ago. By leading the world the west also develops it. Poverty is being eliminated, environment is being saved - as a result of western style capitalism. Just imagine what would happen to our planet if India, China, and all other huge countries in the world would have to go through industrial revolution again. Instead, they can buy more economic and cleaner technologies from the west and spare the environment. But how do they pay for these technologies? Well, poor and undeveloped countries offer what they have - natural resources and technologies that they've already mastered. At competitive prices. This benefits us and it benefits them. There is nothing sacret about the west except our unique combination of liberty, democracy, captialism and hard work. This is the only wheel that keeps us going on. So far - instead of trying to irrationally stop this wheel we've lead the way with new technologies. When textile industry was outsourced to 3rd world, we were exporting electronics, that the producers needed to raise productivity. When electronics was outsourced to Asia, we were developing the IT. So I dont expect the rational and reasonable people to try to stop this wheel now, when a relatively small part of IT (software production that can be outsourced - which is relatively small part of even software production itself) is being outsourced to the 3rd world. There are new fields to be explored and exploited. Genetics, space exploration, pharmacy, and medicine. And the cycle will repeat...if it doesn't then nothing changes but roles switch. We're safe as long as we can all say - may the best man win and feel good about it. Tomaz
Well said. Now if I could just think up a product that the developing world will perceive as a 'must have' tool...:-D
"Welcome to Arizona!
Drive Nice - We're Armed..."
- Proposed Sign at CA/AZ Border -
Tell that to the cow-worshipping moron I talked to at NetGear on Wednesday. I had to repeat everything I said two or three times. He also apparently didn't understand "send me an email", because two days later, I still don't have one (after he guaranteed I'd get it). Lastly, it's his job to learn something that's identifiable as conversant english since 90% of the customers he's going to be dealing with will be from the US. It certainly isn't my job to learn his language. ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
That's a longtime complaint I've had with tech support. Many years ago I tried using the InnocuLAN products for my company. They come as a set - Antivirus, Firewall, and some other crap bundled with it - all in identical boxes, and lacking any instructions whatsoever. I called for installation support, and discovered that my 'assigned' support engineer couldn't speak or understand a word of English. Oh, he attempted it - badly - with incomprehensible diction and a heavy accent that no one in our company was capable of deciphering (I let the Pres and the VP try talking to him, just to save my butt). I tried to get around it for months, but it was impossible for me to speak to anyone but my assigned rep. Policy, you know... Eventually I was forced to give up, and had to write off the several thousand dollars the products cost as an expensive learning experience. Computer Associates isn't the only company I've dealt with having this problem, and it's becoming more, not less common. But they were the most expensive I've dealt with, and I will never again recommend or buy any of their many popular enterprise products because of this experience.
"Welcome to Arizona!
Drive Nice - We're Armed..."
- Proposed Sign at CA/AZ Border -
At least you can understand rednecks because they don't sound like they're choking down curry in mid-sentence. Of course, you do have to deal with the occasional burp and/or fart... ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
It helps to offer the redneck a beer. They speak more clearly, perhaps even reason more lucidly, when slightly intoxicated. Besides, just offering a beer assures him that you're friendly. You might want to pet his dog for good measure...
"Welcome to Arizona!
Drive Nice - We're Armed..."
- Proposed Sign at CA/AZ Border -
If you fuckers would learn proper english and speak without an accent when I call tech support, I wouldn't mind so much. ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
You know what, I very rarely say this to anyone, but dude... You suck! X|
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
Something about double standards.... The tigress is here :-D
Absolutely. People want capitalism. Democracy. Freedom. Free trade. But only when they are gaining something out of it. When it comes to bite them in the ass, they start whining like the little [Edited]rats[/Edited] they are. :mad:
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
It's not you. It's because you do it cheaper ;P
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht / Ich hab die Macht" StS
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygenpeterchen wrote: It's not you. It's because you do it cheaper It's me. ;P I rock the world! :-D
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
John Honan wrote: I am not saying that Indian software companies are underqualified, or likely to produce low-quality code. What I am saying is that the gulf between the clients, the project managers, and the software engineers is wide enough already, without outsourcing the project to a different country. Exactly one of the points I was trying to make (only you said it better :-)) A lot of IT houses do the whole shebang for software - right from analysis to implementation and deployment and maintenance and support. When a project is up for grabs, no company will ship a skilled Indian Systems Analyst (or more) to the UK, put him up for the duration of the Analysis phase in a hotel, then ship him back so his colleagues can implement the software, and then ship the deployment team over from India to install it - it'll end up costing more (potentially), and you lose the ability to communicate, at least partially due to timezone and language issues (not everyone speaks English and/or Indian). Even if you do outsource the development work, you've still got to have some local staff to do the day-to-day business with the company the project is for. And when dealing with some XP-style methodologies where you bring the customer on-site, how do you do that if they are based in a different country? Most customer aren't going to fancy a trip abroad each week just so they can go over user stories with the development team. That's why I think that you can only properly outsource well understood application development, and only where the inevitable loss of communication isn't much of an issue. -- Ian Darling If I was any more loopy, I'd be infinite.
Ian Darling wrote: When a project is up for grabs, no company will ship a skilled Indian Systems Analyst (or more) to the UK, put him up for the duration of the Analysis phase in a hotel, then ship him back so his colleagues can implement the software, and then ship the deployment team over from India to install it Er, no. This is exactly what happens. A whole team is sent to talk to the client, gather requirements, complete the analysis phase, etc. Upon completion of the project, and several times before that, the same or a different team, depending, is sent again and again. I know because several of my friends and a cousin who is also in Software dev have gone overseas many times exactly for this reason. My cousin stayed in London with his team for seven months. With his wife and kid. The language barrier is not there, IMO. A majority of the educated Indian population can speak and understand English very well (but yes, our accent is very different from yours. But then, for us, you are the guys with an accent. :) ). IMO, this is a very important reason why Indians get a lot of software projects, as compared to other countries. Because we can communicate well in English. At least we manage to get our message across. And understand what the other guy is saying as well. I know that you are not willing to learn our language. So we will learn yours. It's all about communication isn't it? So why get hung up on the choice of language?
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
Kant wrote: As of 31st March 2002, India had 42 companies at SEI CMM Level 5 assessment. The quality maturity of the Indian software industry can be measured from the fact that already 316 Indian software companies have acquired quality certifications and more companies are in pipeline to do so. I could find a certified spade engineer to build me a high-quality spade. That spade will meet or exceed all the industry standard quality measurements for spades. I hand it to my client; and it turns out what he really wanted was a bucket. I am not saying that Indian software companies are underqualified, or likely to produce low-quality code. What I am saying is that the gulf between the clients, the project managers, and the software engineers is wide enough already, without outsourcing the project to a different country. John www.silveronion.com[^]
If it's you who is acting as a bridge between the client and me, it's your job to effectively communicate to me the requirements. If you ask me to make a spade, a spade is what I'll make. If the client wanted a bucket, too bad, but not my fault. But you know that this doesn't happen. You know very well how to talk to your client and both of you understand each other very well. You chose me to do the job because among other things, you and me can understand each other too. So the scenario you describe is possible, but improbable.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
Kant wrote: When Hardware components industry (in Taiwan, China...) can succeed, why not software outsourcing? I'm puzzled here. Hardware components are tangible. You can test the quality, measure the rate of production and figure out how many workers you need on the line. Software is intangible. It is difficult to measure the progress of a software project, it is difficult to ascertain that user requirements have been met, more hands on the keyboard does not mean the code will be written quicker. You cannot apply production line methods to software. Software Engineering is not an exact science. John www.silveronion.com[^]
John Honan wrote: Hardware components are tangible. You can test the quality, measure the rate of production and figure out how many workers you need on the line. If you know your job, you can do the same for software too.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
I'm surprised you can form a complete thought much less type out something with english words in it. ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
You have a lot to learn. Till then, keep getting surprised every now and then.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
At least you can understand rednecks because they don't sound like they're choking down curry in mid-sentence. Of course, you do have to deal with the occasional burp and/or fart... ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: At least you can understand rednecks because they don't sound like they're choking down curry in mid-sentence. No you can't. Because it sounds like they're choking down their dad's cock. No wait, you don't choke on small things. Er, let it be.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
Tell that to the cow-worshipping moron I talked to at NetGear on Wednesday. I had to repeat everything I said two or three times. He also apparently didn't understand "send me an email", because two days later, I still don't have one (after he guaranteed I'd get it). Lastly, it's his job to learn something that's identifiable as conversant english since 90% of the customers he's going to be dealing with will be from the US. It certainly isn't my job to learn his language. ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: the cow-worshipping moron OK let's see how far your knowledge about Hinduism goes. Be as insulting as you can, because that's all you can do, and I'll let you use your style, while I'll use mine. Go ahead now, start acting like the clown that you are. Make everyone laugh with your clever jugglery with words.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
The ideas of freedom, liberty and leadership of the free world lay on fearless and independent individuals, who are ready to decidate their life to innovation and progress of man kind on all levels of science. This attitude created the myth of the "west". While the rest of the world was riding horses, some even walking on their bare foot; Henry Ford has opened worlds' first car production serial line. When the rest of the world was using blackboards and armada of buerocracts and accountants to create economic models, two pioneers were writing VisiCalc for worlds' first personal computer. This is why common people on the west today enjoy goods, that any emperor would consider luxury just a hundred years ago. By leading the world the west also develops it. Poverty is being eliminated, environment is being saved - as a result of western style capitalism. Just imagine what would happen to our planet if India, China, and all other huge countries in the world would have to go through industrial revolution again. Instead, they can buy more economic and cleaner technologies from the west and spare the environment. But how do they pay for these technologies? Well, poor and undeveloped countries offer what they have - natural resources and technologies that they've already mastered. At competitive prices. This benefits us and it benefits them. There is nothing sacret about the west except our unique combination of liberty, democracy, captialism and hard work. This is the only wheel that keeps us going on. So far - instead of trying to irrationally stop this wheel we've lead the way with new technologies. When textile industry was outsourced to 3rd world, we were exporting electronics, that the producers needed to raise productivity. When electronics was outsourced to Asia, we were developing the IT. So I dont expect the rational and reasonable people to try to stop this wheel now, when a relatively small part of IT (software production that can be outsourced - which is relatively small part of even software production itself) is being outsourced to the 3rd world. There are new fields to be explored and exploited. Genetics, space exploration, pharmacy, and medicine. And the cycle will repeat...if it doesn't then nothing changes but roles switch. We're safe as long as we can all say - may the best man win and feel good about it. Tomaz
tstih wrote: While the rest of the world was riding horses, some even walking on their bare foot; Henry Ford has opened worlds' first car production serial line. When the rest of the world was using blackboards and armada of buerocracts and accountants to create economic models, two pioneers were writing VisiCalc for worlds' first personal computer. This is the kind of attitude that I salute, and like about the west. Someday, I hope my own country will be like that too. :) tstih wrote: There is nothing sacret about the west except our unique combination of liberty, democracy, captialism and hard work. This is also spreading elsewhere. At least India, which is a very young nation. It's been just 56 years since we got our independence. 56 years ago we were a bunch of illiterate, half naked, starving people. I think we've made an amazing amount of progress from where we were at that time. Only a person who is from India or has seen the pre-independence India can fully grasp my meaning here. tstih wrote: We're safe as long as we can all say - may the best man win and feel good about it. Very well said!
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
Ian Darling wrote: When a project is up for grabs, no company will ship a skilled Indian Systems Analyst (or more) to the UK, put him up for the duration of the Analysis phase in a hotel, then ship him back so his colleagues can implement the software, and then ship the deployment team over from India to install it Er, no. This is exactly what happens. A whole team is sent to talk to the client, gather requirements, complete the analysis phase, etc. Upon completion of the project, and several times before that, the same or a different team, depending, is sent again and again. I know because several of my friends and a cousin who is also in Software dev have gone overseas many times exactly for this reason. My cousin stayed in London with his team for seven months. With his wife and kid. The language barrier is not there, IMO. A majority of the educated Indian population can speak and understand English very well (but yes, our accent is very different from yours. But then, for us, you are the guys with an accent. :) ). IMO, this is a very important reason why Indians get a lot of software projects, as compared to other countries. Because we can communicate well in English. At least we manage to get our message across. And understand what the other guy is saying as well. I know that you are not willing to learn our language. So we will learn yours. It's all about communication isn't it? So why get hung up on the choice of language?
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother TeresaRohit Sinha wrote: A whole team is sent to talk to the client, gather requirements, complete the analysis phase, etc. Upon completion of the project, and several times before that, the same or a different team, depending, is sent again and again. I know because several of my friends and a cousin who is also in Software dev have gone overseas many times exactly for this reason. My cousin stayed in London with his team for seven months. With his wife and kid. So how is it cheaper then? - Who had to pay to put up a team in Hotels etc. for seven months? It's as simple as this: Companies are outsourcing software dev to India because they think it's cheaper. It's not because they can't find the skills or workforce in their own country. What happens is that the IT workforce in their own country end up without jobs (hence the feeling of resentment) The only reason software development is so cheap in India is because the hourly rates are a lot less than in the rest of the world. And the main reason the rates are so low is because the cost of living is cheaper. You try moving an Indian dev team to Ireland and see how long they'd last on Indian rates. This is not about 'Indian companies are better', or 'Indian programmers are better qualified and more experienced'. No, it's down to one simple fact; Indian programmers are paid less. John www.silveronion.com[^]
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John Honan wrote: Hardware components are tangible. You can test the quality, measure the rate of production and figure out how many workers you need on the line. If you know your job, you can do the same for software too.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother TeresaRohit Sinha wrote: If you know your job, you can do the same for software too. I do know my job. I have 15 years experience in the IT business, and have studied software engineering and project management methodologies in some depth. This debate is not about comparing qualifications. If you can point me in the direction of how to apply tangible measurements to project progress, or how to apply quantitative analysis techniques to software engineering I'd be very interested. The issue of outsourcing boils down to one simple fact. Money. Do you really think if a software project was going to cost the same whether it was located in the clients country or outsourced to India that they would pick India? - I don't think so. So don't disillusion yourself with the notion that Indian developers are superior to these in the rest of the world. Paid less, yes. Superior, no. John www.silveronion.com[^]
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Rohit Sinha wrote: A whole team is sent to talk to the client, gather requirements, complete the analysis phase, etc. Upon completion of the project, and several times before that, the same or a different team, depending, is sent again and again. I know because several of my friends and a cousin who is also in Software dev have gone overseas many times exactly for this reason. My cousin stayed in London with his team for seven months. With his wife and kid. So how is it cheaper then? - Who had to pay to put up a team in Hotels etc. for seven months? It's as simple as this: Companies are outsourcing software dev to India because they think it's cheaper. It's not because they can't find the skills or workforce in their own country. What happens is that the IT workforce in their own country end up without jobs (hence the feeling of resentment) The only reason software development is so cheap in India is because the hourly rates are a lot less than in the rest of the world. And the main reason the rates are so low is because the cost of living is cheaper. You try moving an Indian dev team to Ireland and see how long they'd last on Indian rates. This is not about 'Indian companies are better', or 'Indian programmers are better qualified and more experienced'. No, it's down to one simple fact; Indian programmers are paid less. John www.silveronion.com[^]
John Honan wrote: You try moving an Indian dev team to Ireland and see how long they'd last on Indian rates. You know what, you've said exactly what I feel. It's not about who's better, or who's worse, but about who costs less while meeting the minimum standard requirements (I'm hoping there are some minimum requirements) and meet the deadline too. Cost, quality and time are weighted out and those who deliver better on all or most of these according to their respective importance for the company, get the deal.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
Rohit Sinha wrote: If you know your job, you can do the same for software too. I do know my job. I have 15 years experience in the IT business, and have studied software engineering and project management methodologies in some depth. This debate is not about comparing qualifications. If you can point me in the direction of how to apply tangible measurements to project progress, or how to apply quantitative analysis techniques to software engineering I'd be very interested. The issue of outsourcing boils down to one simple fact. Money. Do you really think if a software project was going to cost the same whether it was located in the clients country or outsourced to India that they would pick India? - I don't think so. So don't disillusion yourself with the notion that Indian developers are superior to these in the rest of the world. Paid less, yes. Superior, no. John www.silveronion.com[^]
John Honan wrote: I do know my job. I'm sure you do. I wasn't talking about you personally, but making a general point. Sorry for not being clear. The mistake is mine. :rose: John Honan wrote: Do you really think if a software project was going to cost the same whether it was located in the clients country or outsourced to India that they would pick India? - I don't think so. Depends. There are other factors too, even after you take money out of the equation. Like time and quality, ease of communication, etc. We don't know for sure who would stand where in that case. John Honan wrote: So don't disillusion yourself with the notion that Indian developers are superior to these in the rest of the world. Paid less, yes. Superior, no. I never implied any such thing. Never meant to, anyway. But then, the developers in other countries should also not disillusion themselves with the notion that they are superior to those in India. Paid more, yes. Superior, no.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
John Honan wrote: You try moving an Indian dev team to Ireland and see how long they'd last on Indian rates. You know what, you've said exactly what I feel. It's not about who's better, or who's worse, but about who costs less while meeting the minimum standard requirements (I'm hoping there are some minimum requirements) and meet the deadline too. Cost, quality and time are weighted out and those who deliver better on all or most of these according to their respective importance for the company, get the deal.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother TeresaRohit Sinha wrote: You know what, you've said exactly what I feel. It's not about who's better, or who's worse, but about who costs less while meeting the minimum standard requirements (I'm hoping there are some minimum requirements) and meet the deadline too Agreed. :rose: John www.silveronion.com[^]
