Re: Here's a religious question...

Jorgen Sigvardsson

Sebastián Benítez wrote: how do they know that? They don't. It's faith... :) -- You see me driving down the street I look so f-ing good, yeah! We're smokin' weed and doing dirt in my Tommy Hilfiger hoodie, ha yeah, ha yeah, uh! We're gonna keep talking bullshit about you Cuz nobody be frontin' me and my crew! Cuz I'm a hip hopper, yes I am! Sarcasm...

Joel Holdsworth

To a christian God is good because scripture says he is. To a christian we can trust scripture because much of it can be verified - prophesies in the old testament get fulfilled in the new testament, key events are recorded faithfully, the events recorded in the New Testamant are within living memory of people who had no motive to lie about what they saw. Both these building blocks have room for disbelief, although this room is not such a gaping chasm as you might imagine for the reasons I just talked about. Joel Holdsworth

Sebastian Benitez

All human being lie. Why shouldn't they? "semper aliquid haeret", Bacon. -- Sebastián.

Joel Holdsworth

Human beings only lie if they have motive. We lie when we're in trouble and we need to bail ourselves out - noone lies to get themselves into trouble. Lieing about the existance of a messiah would not be a very fun game for the early church, when there were so many people who were prepared to kill them to stamp out their belief!

Joel Holdsworth

Human beings only lie if they have motive. We lie when we're in trouble and we need to bail ourselves out - noone lies to get themselves into trouble. Lieing about the existance of a messiah would not be a very fun *game* for the early church, when there were so many people who were prepared to kill them to stamp out their belief! Joel Holdsworth

Sebastian Benitez

I think it was a well sustained lie, so well sustained that it became the most powerful religion in the world. "semper aliquid haeret", Bacon. -- Sebastián.

J Dunlap

Sebastián Benítez wrote: All human being lie. Most human beings lie. But it's *very* unlikely that numerous different human beings would all have the same lies as each other - especially when they were so separated by time, station, etc, and they did not all have access to each other's writings. Furthermore, many of the original manuscripts of the prophets have been proven to be authentic by carbon dating, the script/dialect being used at the time they were written, and even the type of clay that they were written on. Also, encoded into the original Hebrew and/or Greek of those writings are the most amazing examples of mathematical sequences that there is no way that they could have occurred by chance, and yet they are so complex that it would also be impossible for people to have encoded them deliberately.

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Joe Woodbury

jdunlap wrote: Furthermore, many of the original manuscripts of the prophets have been proven to be authentic by carbon dating, the script/dialect being used at the time they were written, and even the type of clay that they were written on. We have NO original manuscripts of the prophets. Nada. None. Zero. The earliest version of the Old Testament we currently have dates from the 3rd century BCE, the earliest snippet of anything from the New Testament is from the 4th entry CE. jdunlap wrote: Also, encoded into the original Hebrew and/or Greek of those writings are the most amazing examples of mathematical sequences.... One can find mathematical sequences in anything. Even if deliberate, they only prove that the scribes deliberately chose words to create mathematical sequences, nothing more. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke

grape8

1. Why did God condemn Adam/Eve and mankind... to death and eternal suffering because someone ate the wrong apple in the Garden of Eden? God told them before they ate it that "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die". They ate of it and they died (first spiritually and later physically) just like God said. We are under the curse of Adam because we are his decendants. The apostle Paul spent the first 5 chapters of the book of Romans addressing this very issue. What was the big deal about the "apple"? I don't know. But God knew it wasn't a good thing for us and even warned us about it -- obviously we chose not to believe Him or listen to His counsel. 2. Why didn't God just forgive people? Perhaps scrafice a few sheeps as opposed to crucify Jesus? Crucifying a person is a pretty sad thing to do - even if you have the reasons to, you don't do this sort of thing. The real issue here is the Holiness of God. His Holiness demands sinless perfection and absolute justice. If God excused sin He would cease to be Holy. (R.C. Sproul does a much better job on this topic than I.) But this issue is the very crux of Christianity... it's comming face-to-face with the realization that we in our sinful condition, when faced with the judgment of a Holy God, are hopelessly condemned. But the incredible wonder of it all is that God, in His love and mercy towards us, sent His Son Jesus to die in our place (because God has said that the punishment of sin is death) so that the righteous requirements of God's holiness would be satisfied and allow God to extend forgivness to us! Jesus' death allows us to be forgiven. Again, Romans Chapter 5 is relevant. 3. Why did God condemn Moses, deny him of entrance to the Promised Land, for getting pissed off once (stiking the rock, Numbers 20:12)? Part of the answer lies in the fact that the rock, in this context, was symbolic of God and a foreshadowing of Jesus. The other part lies in the fact that God told Moses to speak to the rock, not to strike it. Thus Moses' effectively ended up both disobeying and hitting God in front of all Israel. No small slip considering that Moses was the primary leader of Israel during this time. (I guess you could losely relate it to the CEO spouting off to the Chairman in front of everyone at a company function. The CEO probably wouldn't be around much longer.) 4. Why did God pick Isreal over the rest o

Jason Henderson

Joel Holdsworth wrote: Why couldn't God have sacrificed some sheep instead? Hebrews 10 1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, 'Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.' " 8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Joel Holdsworth wrote: 4. Why did God pick Isreal over the rest of us? What makes slaughtering of our Egyptian any more legimate than slaughtering of Israelites? Is God a racist? Passover lambs that would be sacrificed were the choice of the flock. They had to be perfect specimins. Since the sacrifice of Jesus is an allusion (is that the right word) to these sacrificial lambs, I would think we could say that the Jews were God's chosen out of the flock of men. They had to be reared up in a special way (as children of God) in order to be the ancestors of Jesus. Also, Abraham was a righteous man in whom God made a promise to all people, that through his "seed" all nations would be blessed. He had to keep his promise.

"We have done so much in the last 2 years, and it doesn't happen by standing around with your finger in your ear, hoping everyone thinks that that's nice." - Donald Rumsfeld<

Jason Henderson

Sebastián Benítez wrote: All human being lie. Why shouldn't they? Why would people lie if it will get them killed? Why would Jesus insist that he was the Son of God and keep on antagonizing the Jewish authorities if he knew it would get him hung upon a cross?

"We have done so much in the last 2 years, and it doesn't happen by standing around with your finger in your ear, hoping everyone thinks that that's nice." - Donald Rumsfeld

Jason Henderson
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Jason Henderson

Joe Woodbury wrote: the earliest snippet of anything from the New Testament is from the 4th entry CE. Actually I'm pretty sure there is a small section of the apostle of John that has been dated back to around 90-100 A.D. This may have been copied before John died.

"We have done so much in the last 2 years, and it doesn't happen by standing around with your finger in your ear, hoping everyone thinks that that's nice." - Donald Rumsfeld

Jason Henderson
blog

Joe Woodbury

Jason Henderson wrote: Actually I'm pretty sure there is a small section of the apostle of John that has been dated back to around 90-100 A.D. I stand corrected. A manuscript dated from 110-120 CE exists containing a few verses of John. There are fragments of other manuscripts dated from the late 2nd and 3rd centuries, though these manuscripts don't always agree. Nevertheless, my original point still stands. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke

peterchen

if yu go up the IQ chain, you can see a tendency to more of a morale codex -and assuming god to be powerful means a) he can afford to be good. Of course doesn't need to be good. However, we live in a world where destruction is easier than construction - If god had enough influence to make this world as is with good intentions, he could have created hell if he's bad-willed. God is less opf a person, more of an icon, a symbol of hope, order and purpose. "Evil gods" appear usually later only to explain the failure of the god guy, and of men.

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Lost User

Beautiful, now after all those fairytales, please tell me why as a church going, bible reading, god believing 9 year old god allowed some sick perverted cunt to sexually molest me many times? Was this just and merciful god just wanting to see how it would affect me? He's ficticious. created soley for the purpose of controlling the uneducated masses many hundreds of years ago. If it turns out that there is an afterlife I will personally walk my way up to heaven snal gods leg off and shove it fair up his arse. If he exists hes a petty pathetic cunt unworthy of life. And by the way I never asked jesus to do nothing for me so I owe him nothing. Michael Martin Australia "I suspect I will be impressed though, I am easy." - Paul Watson 21/09/2003

Lost User

Jason Henderson wrote: Why would Jesus insist that he was the Son of God and keep on antagonizing the Jewish authorities if he knew it would get him hung upon a cross? Cause he was mentally deficient and didn't understand the whole consequences and repercussions thing? Michael Martin Australia "I suspect I will be impressed though, I am easy." - Paul Watson 21/09/2003

Joel Holdsworth

I have to say I'm truely sorry for that experiance you're describing in your childhood - I can only imagine how terrible it must have been. But what I will say is this: The world is people who are just as unfortunate as you were and worse. We see people killed, mamed, raped etc. etc. on our TV's every day. So the question is how can I believe in a loving God when I see and experiance so much suffering? My answer to you is this - the world is a fallen place; a place which is not as God meant it to be. The reason the world is not as God meant it to be is because of hamanity's rejection of God's rule in our lives. See, in the world as God meant it to be there wouldn't have been any pain or suffering of any kind, and unfortunatly it is our own obsession with evil that causes all the pain we see in the world. Thing is we've all sinned or thought about it - none of us are what God meant us to be - perfect! But Jesus was sent as a sacrifice to pay for all that; so that the evil we do need no longer be a brick wall between us and God. To you're second part - I'm not sure you're quite correct. If you believe that Christianity among other religions are to manipule poor unsuspection people; that doesn't quite make sense. I'm a reasonably intelligent guy, and there certainly thousands upon thousands of christians with much more brain-power than I have! We're certainly not stupid or uneducated! Was christianity a way to control these unsuspecting followers who bought into the story? I'd say not - certainly the early leaders were prepared to sacrifice everything - their imagr, their reputation, their lives even... but for what for who? If Jesus wasn't who he said he was - the risen Son of God - then the early christians really didn't have a good reason to keep going! Joel Holdsworth

Lost User

Joel Holdsworth wrote: My answer to you is this - the world is a fallen place; a place which is not as God meant it to be. The reason the world is not as God meant it to be is because of hamanity's rejection of God's rule in our lives. See, in the world as God meant it to be there wouldn't have been any pain or suffering of any kind, and unfortunatly it is our own obsession with evil that causes all the pain we see in the world. Thing is we've all sinned or thought about it - none of us are what God meant us to be - perfect! But Jesus was sent as a sacrifice to pay for all that; so that the evil we do need no longer be a brick wall between us and God. SO god must have been a software engineer in a previous gig, still creating a shitload of bugs. If he is as perfect as it is claimed his creations too should have been perfect. Joel Holdsworth wrote: To you're second part - I'm not sure you're quite correct. If you believe that Christianity among other religions are to manipule poor unsuspection people; that doesn't quite make sense. I'm a reasonably intelligent guy, and there certainly thousands upon thousands of christians with much more brain-power than I have! We're certainly not stupid or uneducated! Was christianity a way to control these unsuspecting followers who bought into the story? I'd say not - certainly the early leaders were prepared to sacrifice everything - their imagr, their reputation, their lives even... but for what for who? If Jesus wasn't who he said he was - the risen Son of God - then the early christians really didn't have a good reason to keep going! I believe that the god story was created during the dark ages (or possibly a few years earlier) in England as a way to get all the serfs to fight for the King against his enemies. The uneducated and downtrodden bottom of the foodchain type made up the bulk of England. They only understood that the Lord/Duke/whoever directly above them told them what to do and they better do it or else. They had no concept of England beyond the next town or two. King Whoever-it-was-at-the-time needed a bit of an army to fight off some invading force. His knights and actual army wasn't enough to do it and the Lords/Duke/whoever saw no benefit in them getting into the whole mess. The religious setup of fighting for the almighty omnipresent being was a good way to control the masses. I like the way the church has such a military structure along with the pomp and ceremony. As England set abou

Joel Holdsworth

Michael Martin wrote: SO god must have been a software engineer in a previous gig, still creating a shitload of bugs. If he is as perfect as it is claimed his creations too should have been perfect. Well sort of... But you are not including the idea of free will. God gave us the gift of free will: we are not puppets; and the choices are ours to make - but unfortunatly we choose to reject God. About the second bit: Even if you are along the right lines - there's quite a bit of evidence to suggest that what you described was not the way it was! Dead sea scrolls for example. Joel Holdsworth

J Dunlap

Michael Martin wrote: I believe that the god story was created during the dark ages (or possibly a few years earlier) in England as a way to get all the serfs to fight for the King against his enemies. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Have you ever delved into Roman history, for example? It is quite clear that Christianity existed long before then.

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