Gary R. Wheeler wrote: It certainly is possible to pass a reference to NULL: I know, I tried it in VS.NET the other night. :) I was just too tired to mention it, and it didn't really have any relevance with respect to my argument. Gary R. Wheeler wrote: In this case, inside the StuffFunction you can't tell that NULL has been passed in. Well, you could always do if(&stuff_item == NULL), assuming Stuff doesn't override operator&. Gary R. Wheeler wrote: Pointers are easier to get sloppy with if you're not careful. The only extra support a reference gives you is that you have to initialize it. Which is certainly nice since the compiler can yell Error! I think I'll experiment some tomorrow to see if I can eliminate the use of pointers (to see if it's possible). I have some ideas I want to try out... :) -- There's a new game we like to play you see. A game with added reality. You treat me like a dog, get me down on my knees. We call it master and servant.