My sophomore/freshman years consisted of Assembly, Fortran, Cobal, and C (Oops! Just dated myself!) The professor told us, early-on, that all who graduate from these courses will be able to produce code; only 10% of those graduates will produce good code. With that bit of corporate insight, coupled with personal experience, the issue is soundly placed to rest. If one is object-oriented, is proficient in UML, and is of keen analytical mind, he/she should be able to be a winning programmer regardless of the training platform (informal/formal). By the way, Jim, (SS) stands for Submarine Service; a pair of dolphins (fish), silver or gold, represents "Qualified in Submarines". My first boat was SSN-579. What was yours?