The problem with torture lovers is that they really, REALLY love to torture. They won't object to this at all.

BoneSoft wrote:

Do you really believe that this anti-abortion conspiracy is SOOO successful that it alone keeps the number of people performing late term abortions to a maximum of 3?!??! But at the same time is so ineffectual in curtailing the millions of abortions that happen every year?

As usual your statement is always full of hyperbolic excess. But putting that aside, Yes. Terrorism can work.

BoneSoft wrote:

Are you referring t

Of course not, you still just pretending to be ignorant.

BoneSoft wrote:

other day one such victim just happened to be a notorious abortion doctor.

No, he was killed because of who he was. This was not an isolated incident.

BoneSoft wrote:

show me one single suicide bombing in the history of mankind that wasn't a terrorist attack.

Prove to me that they were. You're claiming that the context that the attack comes in is irrelevant. You've made it clear that we must know his private motives before we can determine if his is a terrorist. You don't know why suicide bombers act. It could be for personal revenge, it could be for money for the family.

BoneSoft wrote:

it's obvious that they're just flocking to it like moths to a flame

No shit, Sherlock. Murder, death threats, assault, harassment and more can actually be very successful. Terrorism can work.

BoneSoft wrote:

Where's the proof that he was part of this coordinated effort?

That's a new one. Why must it be a coordinated effort? If a suicide bomber acts without orders from Bin Laden he's not a terrorist?

BoneSoft wrote:

OK fine. But if affecting 2 out of 300,000,000 people constitutes "terrorism"

You're pretending ignorance, again(I hope). Why do you think there are only 2? Because of the harassment, the death threats, the assaults and the murders. That's exactly how terrorism works. Murder a doctor in his church(!) sends quite a powerful message. And of course all of this doesn't just work on the doctors, it works on the women who want and need health care (not just abortions). If the clinic is picketed and the patients are harassed that makes it all the more likely that women won't get the care they need.

BoneSoft wrote:

Or a better answer might be: Bull hockey. Don't pretend you "know" why people do one thing or another. The motives of criminals are numerous.

Wow - you really insist on going there - you so want to justify murdering doctors. X| So now you are insisting that all those suicide bomber are not terrorists. We can't possibly know their motives, thus they are not terrorists. According to you, there is no way we can possibly call the men who flew planes into buildings terrorists, because we can't possibly know there motives. You are now on record insisting that the detainees at GITMO are not, after all this, terrorists. Quite a 180.

I'm not dodging the issue. I have been quite clear all along. There are no grey areas when it comes to Bush's "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques". They are all torture. We convicted Nazis of using the exact same techniques "Verschärfte Vernehmung"[^]. The precedent and the law are very clear. And bear in mind that Geneva and the Torture Convention don't just outlaw torture but other coercive techniques as well.

BoneSoft wrote:

Can you at least admit that we don't agree?

Of course we disagree. Did you think I was disputing that??

Stan Shannon wrote:

I guess you don't care how many people are killed by terrorists

Of course I care. Putting aside the fact that torture is illegal and immoral, the very practical result of not torturing is the saving of American lives. We now know that our torture regime has resulted in the death of Americans. No lives have been saved and many have been lost.

And anyone else who might choose to provide the service. :rolleyes: Don't play ignorant. He did not act in a vacuum. The last decade has seen numerous death threat, assaults, antrax threats, etc - see my OP. As well as countless acts of coordinated harassment.

BoneSoft wrote:

You forget, abortion is just politics for your side of the argument. It's always been more than that for the other side.

Bull hockey. Don't pretend you "know" why people support one position or another. The motives, on both sides, are as numerous.

BoneSoft wrote:

Was his "political goal" to terrify the other 2?

Of course it was. And anyone else who might choose to provide late term abortions.

BoneSoft wrote:

Just because you don't recognize the legitimacy of an opposing argument doesn't make it invalid.

It is not my recognition of the illigitimacy of the pro-torture position that makes it invalid, it is the law that makes it invalid.

Good for you. I don't.

Of course it was an act of terrorism. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/06/how_should_congress_respond_to.html[^]

As The American Prospect's Ann Friedman writes, this has to be understood in context. It is the final, decisive act in "an ongoing campaign of intimidation and harassment against someone who was providing completely legal health-care services." That campaign stretched over decades of protests, lawsuits, violence, and, finally, murder. The different elements were not always orchestrated. But the intent remained constant: To counter the absence of a statute that would make Tiller's work illegal with enough intimidation to render it impossible. This was, in other words, a political act. Tiller was murdered so that those in his line of work would be intimidated.

kmg365 wrote:

I don't think was to inspire terror.

That is exactly his goal. He used murder in an attempt to achieve a political goal. That is a definition of terrorism.

It's not either/or. Everyone's rights need to be protected. Is that a problem for you?

There isn't. A bunch of toture apologist crying about how it's not torture is not a debate.

Glad you agree.

Glad to see that you agree that Roeder is a terrorist.

Mike Gaskey wrote:

the debate is, "what is legal" and that is subjective

Sorry, bud. Torture is illegal and clearly defined. The precedents go back over a century. Whether waterboarding or stress positions. It's torture and it is illegal.

Better than torture, that's for sure.

The legal and effective methods that have been our mainstay until recently.

Why in the world do you think that I want this terrorism against a woman's access to legal medical care to continue?