Well, if you actually look at the site stats, you'll see that many Romanians are clearing more than $1200/month on the site. I'm just curious...exactly how much do you make a month and what job do you do? ian

Cristian, I'm curious what city in Romania you are from. Most Romanians have told me that $100 can pay a substantial portion (if not all) of the rent for a month (so it's equivalent to $700 here, and about $1600 in San Francisco). As an example: http://www.romtradeconsult.com/Living-expenses.htm Ian

Amclint, Well I don't doubt that you've cleaned up alot of bad code from coders in those countries. I can tell you my story. I worked as an indpendent consultant in the U.S. for several years (before people knew what "outsourcing" was) and took over for many coders in a number of companies. I found that 99% of the time the system was so brittle it had to be majorly refactored to get what the client wanted. About 75% of the time the database design was poor...about 50% of the time basic things like identity fields for primary keys, and foreign keys were not used at all. About 85% of the use of OO was either not done properly or not used at all. I received adequate documentation on maybe 15% of the projects. I've also interviewed alot of U.S. coders in those positions to work under me. I've found that about 10% were very good, another 15% were acceptable, and the rest did not perform at a level where I would employ them. Personally, I don't think this is a U.S. versus non U.S. problem. There are smart people and there are incompetent people in every country. And in today's world, even in places like India, there are now opportunities for training for the brightest. I think it's a software engineering problem. It's just hard to create software properly because it takes intellgience and disclipine. No matter what country you are from. >>for software that is even remotely complex I will never outsource as I find it a waste of time and resources. That's certainly your choice and your right. I will point this out. If you're working for someone else...you can certainly take that attitude without a problem. If you work for yourself (independent consultant) you are leaving money on the table. The new breed of U.S. coder is clearly emerging who leverages outsourcing, by keeping the work for themselves that they do better, managing cheaper outsourced work, integrating it, giving it to the client and profiting more than they would be "going it alone". Ian

Ah...national security is a different story. We deal with businesses so we don't have too many national security issues. But if there is a terrorism (or potential terrorism) tie-in, the PATRIOT act allows the government very wide discretion (some would say too wide). Regardless of one's opinion there, however, that discretion is limited ONLY to the government. No business or citizen is allowed any such discretion. We still have the FCC and other agencies that monitor privacy...and those are in full effect to "normal" people. Ian RAC

Amclint, >>As for the US/UK programmers I agree with you that there should be some separation there. In talking with the buyers I worked with on RAC I found two types, the ones that liked working with US types (for time zone, culture preference, etc) and the ones that really didn't care if it was US or Offshore. The ones preferring US always paid hire and were generally more open to paying more if the job went over, but they are very difficult to find out of the bulk of jobs. You're right. We need to do a better job of just filtering those out for coders in the US/UK so they don't get frustrated weeding through the other ones. I am actually working on a spec on how to do this right now. :) >>What would be useful is a metric that told you what % of projects a buyer went overseas for as opposed to US. I don't know if that would be discriminatory or not but it would be useful for US coders Right now you can see from the site http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/misc/About/ThePulseOfRentACoder.asp[^] that 13% of the 13,000 projects last month were onshored to the U.S.. The UK took another 3%.. The U.S. rotates in the top 3 countries every month (with India and Romania)...so sometimes it is a bit higher...but it is fairly representative. Ian RAC

Oh I don't want to give the wrong impression. We definitely are always doing things to reduce it. It's in our best interests too. But check out Amclient's post below...in his experience in freelancing. Ian Rac

Colin, Actually, Colin, privacy violations are regulated in the U.S. by the FCC and are also illegal in Florida. And, yes all site users give us permission to post their arbitration records publicly. It really shouldn't be a problem to anyone who has the facts on their side. On the other hand, it is a real problem for those who know that the facts aren't. Ian

Colin. >>Oh, and a wee word of warning. If Christian gets to this thread and notices your from RAC then prepared to be flamed regarding your arbitration process. He wasn't all that enamoured with it. (And with that sentence I should probably apply for the diplomatic service) :) I'm not sure what Christian's last name is...or I would look up his account and see exactly what the issue is. I will say this...if he DOES post here and everything he posts is accurate, and a mistake was made on his arbitration...I will not only correct it but also apologize publicly to him for it here. On the other hand if he posts anything that is inaccurate (or the proper result was rendered, and he's one of those types whose emotions makes him feel he should have won, even though the facts didn't) then I'm going to be posting his arbitration publicly and will be requesting that he apologize. RAC Ian

Ed, You're right about seperating them (although I hestitate to use "wheat" and "chaff"...because what you are calling chaff is actaully wheat...and well paying wheat...to someone else). From talking on here I've realized that what needs to be done is a better way to allow U.S./UK coders to focus only on the onshore projects, and not have to weed through the offshore ones. That would eliminate the frustration and increase the sucess rate. >>Somehow RAC needs to find ways to up the success rate. 40% is many times too high. I disagree that you can fairly compare RAC services to ebay's physical goods, but everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. Thanks Ed for the useful feedback. Ian RAC

You're welcome Colin. It's been helpful for me as well. The main issue is that I can see that the main difference between U.S./UK coders who do well on the site, and those that don't, is the willingness to weed through the offshore outsourcing jobs, and perhaps a thicker skin. We can do a better job in that regard by segregating the onshore and the offshore projects. That would reduce the frustration level of coders bidding on the wrong types of projects. Ian RAC

Ed, >>My guess is that some percentage of RAC jobs are not real because the bidder is looking for free estimates. By doing that, they have some idea of what local developer might charge them, which is all they perhaps intended to do in the first place. Others think they have a $50 job, and then find out it’s a $500 job. Lack of $ results in a no acceptance. >>Knowing there is a 40% cancellation rate is also not encouraging. That should be red flag for both RAC and anyone looking at that buyer. It would seem to me that such firms should have a much harder time putting the next job on RAC. Ed, have you actually used the site? It sounds like you haven't. We're way ahead of you on this one. :) We don't want buyers looking for free estimates either. Remember, we don't get paid if the coder's don't get paid. That's why each buyers has a non action ratio...the # of projects they posted where they didn't pick someone. If you see a medium high cancellation ratio and don't feel comfortable...move on to the next person. >>My guess is that some percentage of RAC jobs are not real because the bidder is looking for free estimates. By doing that, they have some idea of what local developer might charge them, which is all they perhaps intended to do in the first place. They can do this...but again it only hurts them, and their non action ratio. >>Knowing there is a 40% cancellation rate is also not encouraging. If you've done any freelance consulting, you'd know that this a pretty standard concept in business...the concept of the "sales pipeline". You expect a large percentage of people to drop out of the pipeline at every stage. If you're discouraged by this, then perhaps freelancing (not just on Rent a Coder, but even "in the real world" isn't up your alley...and working as an employee for company would be a better career choice for you. Ian

Colin, >>Is that a euphamism for "I didn't think it would cost that much!"? Rather than having lost a budget, I'm wondering if they ever had it in the first place and were hoping that they could find someone on RAC that would be willing for very little money. I'm impressed how you could know such a thing without ever having talked directly with the buyers as we do. Yes some do have unrealistic expectations. But if it's unrealistic, no one picks them and they have a choice. Either raise the price, or don't get the project done. >>From the posts I've seen about RAC in various forums the buyers involved in those cases are wanting something for next to nothing. Again, this goes back to the fact that there are 2 types of projects on RAC...onshore and offshore. If you are a U.S. coder bidding on offshore projects, you are going to think that's the case. You can save yourself frustration by not doing this (for exmaple by setting your filters). >>Do you poll for that reason a job is withdrawn? I'm wondering if the buyer will genuinely pick that if they withdraw without picking a bid. If it were me, I'd probably feel too embarrassed to pick that. It's an anonomous poll (unless they choose to put their name on it)...so embarrasment is probably not an issue. RAC Ian Ian RAC

Yes Leslie, I'm from RAC. With that buyer...if you are indeed the best bet for him/her...the good thing is that they will eventually be forced to come to you. That's the beauty of an open market. No one will bid who is qualified...and they will either have to raise the price, or they will pick someone who is not qualified, go into arbitration, and when they get their money back, choose someone who is (we see this alot...arbitration is a very educational experience for some buyers). >>The problem is that the max bid is set at $150. Now this is a lot, at least in terms of RentACoder money, One thing...just so you know $150 is actually the average size of a job at RAC. Remember that this is an average and includes both types of jobs: 1) offshore outsourcing (which is less expensive) 2) onshore oustsouring (which is more expensive) So it is going to be lower than the average job you could expect for an onshore job. I talked about this in another response, and don't want to post it again and take up space unnecessarily. U.S. coders are always in the top 3 countries every month...which may seem suprising...until you think about the fact that some jobs cannot be outsourced (most 3rd world countries have no laws protecting trade secrets) and because the buyers are from the U.S. and they have a cultural bias in choosing business partners toward people in their own culture (a study by American University on RAC explored this). I think the real underlying issue/problem here is the fact that there are two types of work being done on the site, and the problem is that as a U.S. coder you are forced to weed through all the offshore jobs. It's frustrating to you. Am I right about this? If so, maybe we could do something better to allow you to see only jobs that suit you. Ian RAC

Hockey, Check out what I wrote to Ed. It's a mistake to look at an offshore outsourcing situation, see a low $ amount and assume that low quality/effort work is being done. You're appplying U.S. standards for measuring the amount of money to a situation that it doesn't apply to. $100 is a month's salary in Romania...and people will bust their tails and do everything for a month's salary. Remember to take into account different costs of living. Ian RAC

Ed, >>My interest in RAC is from a coders viewpoint. I see...thanks for c.arifying. >>Having spent a few days poking around in RAC, it seems like a few things are basically true:1. Many jobs are not real. Buyers post for different reasons other than actually buying coder service. What EXACTLY makes you say that most of the jobs are not real? If you think about it, there's not much incentive for a buyer to post something that isn't real. Coders are not allowed to do work in advance of escrowing (being selected)...so the buyers aren't getting work done in advance for free. The cancellation rate of bid requests (where buyers don't select a coder) is about 40%. But it shouldn't be expected that 100% of projects should go through. And we do polls on the cancellations. The #1 reason is "lost budget". #2 is "didn't find a coder with expertise in xyz". There just isn't much incentive to post a job that isn't "real". >>2. Most jobs are targeted towards very low bids, that do not encourage quality. Ed, I'm assuming you are from the U.S.? You need to understand that there are two types of business being done on the site. One is outsourcing overseas. These are going to have low bids (from your point of view...not from the point of view of somone overseas). You aren't going to win these bids, so it doesn't make sense to bid on them. The other is outsourcing onshore (in the U.S.). If you see the study done by American University on Rent a Coder, you'll see that most of the buyers are U.S. and they actually do have a cultural bias and tendency to pick U.S. coders. That's part of the reason why the U.S. always is in the top 3 each month as well. Anyway, what you can do is set your filter to ignore the <$100 projects and this way you won't see the projects those types of projects and focus on the ones that you do have a better chance of winning. One thing to point it...it is a big mistake, to look at an overseas outsourcing situation, see a low $ amount and assume that the result must be low quality or low effort work. If $100 is a month's salary in Romania you can be sure that coder is going to put a ton of their best work in for it. What you're seeing is the difference in the cost of living between the U.S. and another country, and assuming that this means there is low quality work being asked for..and being done. That isnt the case. >>3. Many jobs are very small and really do amount to homework for actually buyers. Go to "my bid requests" and count the # of homeowork pro

Ed, You didn't say what types of experiences you were looking for...as a buyer or as a coder, and from what country. Here is my feedback (from the point of view of Rent a Coder itself): 1) As a buyer: 13,000+ projects were started and completed last month: http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/misc/About/ThePulseOfRentACoder.asp There's also a 93% return rate for buyers. None of this would be happening if it didn't work well for buyers. 2) For a coder: 2a) From a non U.S. country: A $100 job is a month's salary in many places of the world. Two of the top 3 countries for coders on the site (India and Romania) fall into this category. (see the above link). I have numerous emails from people in this category who not only have quit their jobs becuase of the steady work they receive from RAC, but also started their own companies. An easy way to find them is to browse the top coder list, and you can see this from their profiles. 2b) From the U.S (which is where some the people on this thread seem to be coming from): The competition from people in 2a) can be difficult. However, the U.S. is always in the top 3 countries on the site. As an example, the #1 coder on the site right now is from the U.S.: http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/misc/AllCoderCompleteList.asp[^] Click on his profile and look at him (Tometa Software). This isn't a "college student" as someone else on this board stated he would be. And this isn't a person just looking to do a one time job on Rent a Coder and take him offsite...as someone else said is "typical" (look at his repeat business and again..remember the 93% repeat business rate). Instead, this is a developer who is also a business man...which is the "new breed" of American coder we are seeing on the site. He uses outsourcing to his advantage. He takes in projects from clients, does some of the work himself, and outsources the excess that he doesn't have the time to complete, or that he can do cheaper elsewhere. Then he pockets the difference. This way he can do more projects than he ever could do on his own, and make more money. Can a U.S. coder still find success on RAC being just a "head's down coder"? As others posted, it can be difficu