Steel wars
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Imo Bush's protectionist "steel law" is one of the most dangerous decisions taken by the United States in this decade. Its much more dangerous then the pathetic Kyoto and Start relics. Limitation on free trade by United States delivers a heavy blow to the idea itself. I just wonder how do you Americans look at the fact that your country is introducing protectionist trade laws? Do you belive that economy can be controlled by the goverments? Won't this make other industries of your country vulnerable and non competitive because they'll have to depend on expensive steel of low quality? The most pathetic thing about it is that my country (Slovenia) just two weeks ago accepted the law proposed by the United States about the production of generic drugs and set the moratorium on production of new generics to six years to protect intellectual property. The law really hurts our major (...and one Eastern European markets quite successful) pharmaceuticals but it was accepted because of the free trade benefits for my country in other areas. And now this... !@#? (excuse me) Not that I am anti american or anti Bush, my political belief is Libertalian and I like the idea of tax reduction and weak state. But our American friends should now really stop the patriotic frenzy for a moment to be able to rethink this particular act of unilateralism. This is not war on terrorism, this is going to hurt economies of countries that have stronger and more competitive steel production. And at the end trough your investments it will return like a boomerang to the United States. You should really keep focus on actions that promote your objectives and not use it as an excuse to eliminate economic competitors by etatistic means. Hope at least some of you will call your politicians to protest this law. Regards, Tomaz
this is about US politics, not making the EU feel good. The republican party is trying hard to please US voters (elections are coming up), so it's sacrficing the feelings of a bunch of EU and Asian countries. You don't get votes by putting people out of work. tstih wrote: But our American friends should now really stop the patriotic frenzy for a moment to be able to rethink this particular act of unilateralism Patriotic frenzy? sheesh. get over it. this has nothing to do with patriotism. this is politics. And, it's a tarri, we're not bombing London or anything. tstih wrote: this is going to hurt economies of countries that have stronger and more competitive steel production. so, the US economy needs to suffer so that other economies can be happy? nice world, that. tstih wrote: Hope at least some of you will call your politicians to protest this law. err.. i doubt it. i'm not really sure you'll find many americans who want Joe from Pennsylvania to lose his job, just so Joe from Canton can keep his. -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. You're the icing - on the cake - on the table - at my wake. Modest Mouse
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Paul Watson wrote: Like a babe into the woods I tippy toe and respectfully ask the aged wise trees: How can they dump below cost and carry on going? From what I understand (which could be completely wrong as I'm no authority on the steel industry) is that the countries in which these companies operate give them subsidies to offset the losses they sustain by selling cheap here in the U.S. thus keeping their industry propped up in an unfair way at our expense. Like most farmers around the world today, thanks to government subsidies, they no longer have to concern themselves with makeing a profit to stay in business. Paul Watson wrote: I can understand if the forieng countries are far more efficient in all areas of steel production than the US producers, but I don't quite see that being true. I think that is the most important element in the issue. Our steel industry *has* gotten behind technologically and therefore cannot produce steel as efficiently and hence, as cheaply. But from what I understand, our guys are saying that they cannot invest in improvements unless they are given a temporary respite from foreign steel which is being sold for less than it could be produced by any amount of improvement in technology. Personally, although I think the countries that do that should stop, I think our industry is full of crap. I think they need to knuckle down, invest in improvements, and compete. "There's a slew of slip 'twixt cup and lip"
Stan Shannon wrote: Personally, although I think the countries that do that should stop, I think our industry is full of crap. I think they need to knuckle down, invest in improvements, and compete. Bit of a chicken and egg scenario. They are behind and need a break to get up to being competitive, but the world won't give them a break because they are not competitive. Then of course the rest of the world moans when they are given a break. So, maybe, just maybe Bush is giving them the break they need to catch up. If that is the case, then I am ok with it. If they sit around on their asses hoping the tariff is their meal ticket however then they deserve to go under. Hopefully once they have caught up, the tariff will be scrapped? Stan Shannon wrote: the countries in which these companies operate give them subsidies to offset the losses they sustain by selling cheap here in the U.S I really see that as a big problem in economics. Somewhere, someone or some industry is footing the bill for those subsidies. Eventually it will come around and bite the country in the ass if they don't stop subsidising. Subsidising initially is fine, but to just carry on doing it is daft. I just thought of something: I will bet some of the money America gives to developing nations is used to subsidise these steel companies which then undercut the American producers. How ironic, and disrespectful of the developing nations. *Paul wipes the worlds slate clean and starts everything anew* I wonder how long it would take for us to get in the same pickle we are in now? :| Thanks for the info Stan, you are indeed a wise.. errr.. tree. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
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Ray Kinsella wrote: we of the E.U. are quite used to kicking American's asses over trade issues EXACTLY!, if there was ever a reason to accept this United States of Europe bulls..., then this is IT. Jan "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!"
Forward to a federal Europe Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Ray, thanks. But I don't feel a bit better. We do have some problems of our own in the old world, don't we? The agroculture production quotas, buerocracy (for example required number of goverment officials per square meter), limitation on how low taxes can go (to prevent tax competition)... Apropos. In the Banana wars Europe was the bad guy, imo. But these are internal matters. EU is quite open to the outside. Anyway, Europe and US still are the most open markets. I just hate it when someone does something this stupid on each side of the Atlantic. Increasing import tax to 30% and introducing quotas. That's just crazy. What do that hope to achieve with that? Get US steel industry on its feet again? Never worked for anyone in this way. I'll be in Slovenia (I live in Switzerland) in August. How does the word 'beer' sound to you? Tomaz
Tomaz, You are doing exactily the thinh I hate worst in the whole world. Your country is suffering, I know poverty, I know unemployment, I know burocracy, I know emigratation and I know things can change. You have a clear choice, a choice you have already partially made by living in Switzerland, you can point at Slovenia and say 'Thank God, I don't live there anymore', as generations of my countrymen did before me, or you can work in your own small way to change it. Out of all the states applying of EU membership Slovenia's economic prospects are the most appealing. Small, stable, open economy, reformist government, friendily, well educated people, cheap labour cost ... etc. So when compared to places such as ... well Turkey being one, you are doing very well. When Slovenia joins the EU, she will receive the money, expertise and friends she needs to accomadate her transformation, need I point to examples of Portugal and Ireland etc. Of how this has, can and will be done. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Ray Kinsella wrote: Don't fear needlessily, we of the E.U. are quite used to kicking American's asses over trade issues. Remember the Banana/beef etc war's ? who always came out on top, Solvenia will soon asscend to full E.U. membership (as soon as I change some Irish votes) and join us in some good old fashioned American ass whooping. So fear not, and let us let Brussels do what she is good at ... Wow! I didn't even notice that ass kicking. Must have been a big deal to the lesser nations of the world though, I suppose. "There's a slew of slip 'twixt cup and lip"
It bothered you enough to threaten a trade war with us. One you would lose as Japan was backing us up, but I should imagine that such things don't reported on U.S. news. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Tim Smith wrote: You act like this is something new. Well, all the papers and other media over here are going nuts over this as well. I think with Afghanistan out of the lime light, Iraq not quite in it, the Israeli-Palestine war getting even more "repetitive" and nothing much else to focus on they saw "Bush", "New Law", "Restricting Free Trade" and jumped on it. If Bush had said "Free candy for all" they would have put it on the front page :rolleyes: Just curious, but what other kind of trade tariffs does the US currently have? Is it just steel now? Or are there others which have been around for ages? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
Not sure what we have. But I know that this one isn't the first and only. I know that we have a lot of tariffs exporting to Japan. I am sure the EU member nations have their own. Chris L. hit the nail right on the head. The is a political event to help with relations between the administration and big steel which also helps the relationship with the unions (which Bush needs for other things...) Tim Smith I know what you're thinking punk, you're thinking did he spell check this document? Well, to tell you the truth I kinda forgot myself in all this excitement. But being this here's CodeProject, the most powerful forums in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question, Do I feel lucky? Well do ya punk?
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this is about US politics, not making the EU feel good. The republican party is trying hard to please US voters (elections are coming up), so it's sacrficing the feelings of a bunch of EU and Asian countries. You don't get votes by putting people out of work. tstih wrote: But our American friends should now really stop the patriotic frenzy for a moment to be able to rethink this particular act of unilateralism Patriotic frenzy? sheesh. get over it. this has nothing to do with patriotism. this is politics. And, it's a tarri, we're not bombing London or anything. tstih wrote: this is going to hurt economies of countries that have stronger and more competitive steel production. so, the US economy needs to suffer so that other economies can be happy? nice world, that. tstih wrote: Hope at least some of you will call your politicians to protest this law. err.. i doubt it. i'm not really sure you'll find many americans who want Joe from Pennsylvania to lose his job, just so Joe from Canton can keep his. -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. You're the icing - on the cake - on the table - at my wake. Modest Mouse
Chris Losinger wrote: Patriotic frenzy? sheesh. get over it. this has nothing to do with patriotism. this is politics. Isn't drumming up patriotism a great polotical move? Mayor Guiliani (sp?) was in the right place and the right time and used patriotism very well. And I think it is everything to do with patriotism, but for politics sake. They are saying "vote for us because as you can see with our patriotic steel tariff we are helping our FELLOW AMERICANS." Thats patriotism being used for politics. Chris Losinger wrote: You don't get votes by putting people out of work. You mean "You don't get votes by putting fellow Americans out of work." Just remember poor Joe from Canton... ;) Chris Losinger wrote: And, it's a tarri, we're not bombing London or anything. No, but the tariff will put Joe from Canton out of work, plus all his buddies. All 10 000 of them who need to support families. Without the jobs, they starve to death because unlike the clever and well grounded American government their government cannot support them (as I said, clever and well grounded American government, hats off too America to be were they are, you guys have done well, and I am not being sarcastic.) Chris Losinger wrote: so, the US economy needs to suffer so that other economies can be happy? nice world, that. Well, in a perfect world the other governments would be able to support their populace, but they cannot. America can. Therefore if America is the benign, world peace loving, supportive, good and fatherly figure of the world that it thinks it is then yes, it should suffer to help others. You guys can take not being top of the steel producing pile, you have such excess and such a solid base that your steel workers can go do something else and live good lives. However, as you said, it is politics and your fellow American is far more important than Joe from Canton. Chris Losinger wrote: err.. i doubt it. i'm not really sure you'll find many americans who want Joe from Pennsylvania to lose his job, just so Joe from Canton can keep his. I think Americans are a lot more inclined to sacrifice some of their excess to help other countries than other countries are inclined to help America. Being at the top has it's benefits and also it's responsibilities. If you don't want to support the rest of the world, well, then, leave us all alone in ev
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Forward to a federal Europe Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
Ray Kinsella wrote: Forward to a federal Europe What does a federal europe actually mean? What kind of authoritative structure is in place in a federation? People often bandy around terms like this and I often do not know what they mean by them (sometimes I think some of the bandiers don't know either :) .) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
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Chris Losinger wrote: Patriotic frenzy? sheesh. get over it. this has nothing to do with patriotism. this is politics. Isn't drumming up patriotism a great polotical move? Mayor Guiliani (sp?) was in the right place and the right time and used patriotism very well. And I think it is everything to do with patriotism, but for politics sake. They are saying "vote for us because as you can see with our patriotic steel tariff we are helping our FELLOW AMERICANS." Thats patriotism being used for politics. Chris Losinger wrote: You don't get votes by putting people out of work. You mean "You don't get votes by putting fellow Americans out of work." Just remember poor Joe from Canton... ;) Chris Losinger wrote: And, it's a tarri, we're not bombing London or anything. No, but the tariff will put Joe from Canton out of work, plus all his buddies. All 10 000 of them who need to support families. Without the jobs, they starve to death because unlike the clever and well grounded American government their government cannot support them (as I said, clever and well grounded American government, hats off too America to be were they are, you guys have done well, and I am not being sarcastic.) Chris Losinger wrote: so, the US economy needs to suffer so that other economies can be happy? nice world, that. Well, in a perfect world the other governments would be able to support their populace, but they cannot. America can. Therefore if America is the benign, world peace loving, supportive, good and fatherly figure of the world that it thinks it is then yes, it should suffer to help others. You guys can take not being top of the steel producing pile, you have such excess and such a solid base that your steel workers can go do something else and live good lives. However, as you said, it is politics and your fellow American is far more important than Joe from Canton. Chris Losinger wrote: err.. i doubt it. i'm not really sure you'll find many americans who want Joe from Pennsylvania to lose his job, just so Joe from Canton can keep his. I think Americans are a lot more inclined to sacrifice some of their excess to help other countries than other countries are inclined to help America. Being at the top has it's benefits and also it's responsibilities. If you don't want to support the rest of the world, well, then, leave us all alone in ev
Paul Watson wrote: And I think it is everything to do with patriotism, but for politics sake. They are saying "vote for us because as you can see with our patriotic steel tariff we are helping our FELLOW AMERICANS." Thats patriotism being used for politics. yeah, true. i guess i was thinking of the more nationalistic side of patriotism, which is more about "You suck , we don't". Paul Watson wrote: You guys can take not being top of the steel producing pile, you have such excess and such a solid base that your steel workers can go do something else and live good lives. the towns that are home to these steel mills are going to be in tough shape if the mills close. it's not just the 400 steel workers - it's their 2.5 kids and their spouse. then there are the banks, car dealers and movie theaters and the coffee shop, and the McDonalds that serve them lunch, plus the grocery store and the WalMart where they spend their pay. it's easy to say "find another job" but there aren't many jobs around right now for people with those skills (or any skills, really) - especially in the sections of the country where steel production is located. i don't think there's an easy answer to this. it's a lose-lose situation for everyone. without a tarrif the mills go out of business and take down the surrounding towns with them, which costs Bush's party many votes. with the tarrif, we piss off a bunch of other countries. there's more: the auto industry is opposed to the tarrif. the tarrif keeps the steel mills in business, but raises the price of steel for the people who buy steel; so they have to charge more for what they produce, which usually means fewer sales. but the price of steel doesn't go up in Japan, only in the US. and that means imported cars get cheaper (relatively). and that's just the auto industry - there's also construction and a whole host of other manufacturing sectors that use steel. and this also costs Bush's party a bunch of votes. Paul Watson wrote: Though I wouldn't want to be an actual American, btw. why not? -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. You're the icing - on the cake - on the table - at my wake. Modest Mouse
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Ray Kinsella wrote: Forward to a federal Europe What does a federal europe actually mean? What kind of authoritative structure is in place in a federation? People often bandy around terms like this and I often do not know what they mean by them (sometimes I think some of the bandiers don't know either :) .) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: What does a federal europe actually mean? What kind of authoritative structure is in place in a federation? I spent a few minutes trying to write a simple answer, it didn't come easily but here it is. Increasing, especially since the second world war, Europeans have felt an increasing greater sense of shared history, politcs, economics, culture and goals. Having individual goverments as doing similar things and all saying similar things seems increasing like waste. Member states of this 'Federal Union' we call the E.U. are increasing devolving power on certain issues to cental government, who are then responsible for them. Effectivily Europe is becoming a United States of Europe, and there are many of us who are very happy with this, and many who are not. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Chris Losinger wrote: Patriotic frenzy? sheesh. get over it. this has nothing to do with patriotism. this is politics. Isn't drumming up patriotism a great polotical move? Mayor Guiliani (sp?) was in the right place and the right time and used patriotism very well. And I think it is everything to do with patriotism, but for politics sake. They are saying "vote for us because as you can see with our patriotic steel tariff we are helping our FELLOW AMERICANS." Thats patriotism being used for politics. Chris Losinger wrote: You don't get votes by putting people out of work. You mean "You don't get votes by putting fellow Americans out of work." Just remember poor Joe from Canton... ;) Chris Losinger wrote: And, it's a tarri, we're not bombing London or anything. No, but the tariff will put Joe from Canton out of work, plus all his buddies. All 10 000 of them who need to support families. Without the jobs, they starve to death because unlike the clever and well grounded American government their government cannot support them (as I said, clever and well grounded American government, hats off too America to be were they are, you guys have done well, and I am not being sarcastic.) Chris Losinger wrote: so, the US economy needs to suffer so that other economies can be happy? nice world, that. Well, in a perfect world the other governments would be able to support their populace, but they cannot. America can. Therefore if America is the benign, world peace loving, supportive, good and fatherly figure of the world that it thinks it is then yes, it should suffer to help others. You guys can take not being top of the steel producing pile, you have such excess and such a solid base that your steel workers can go do something else and live good lives. However, as you said, it is politics and your fellow American is far more important than Joe from Canton. Chris Losinger wrote: err.. i doubt it. i'm not really sure you'll find many americans who want Joe from Pennsylvania to lose his job, just so Joe from Canton can keep his. I think Americans are a lot more inclined to sacrifice some of their excess to help other countries than other countries are inclined to help America. Being at the top has it's benefits and also it's responsibilities. If you don't want to support the rest of the world, well, then, leave us all alone in ev
If you want to talk about the evils of tariffs, then go ahead. But to single out this tariffs as being better or worse than any other is pointless. Tim Smith I know what you're thinking punk, you're thinking did he spell check this document? Well, to tell you the truth I kinda forgot myself in all this excitement. But being this here's CodeProject, the most powerful forums in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question, Do I feel lucky? Well do ya punk?
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Stan Shannon wrote: Personally, although I think the countries that do that should stop, I think our industry is full of crap. I think they need to knuckle down, invest in improvements, and compete. Bit of a chicken and egg scenario. They are behind and need a break to get up to being competitive, but the world won't give them a break because they are not competitive. Then of course the rest of the world moans when they are given a break. So, maybe, just maybe Bush is giving them the break they need to catch up. If that is the case, then I am ok with it. If they sit around on their asses hoping the tariff is their meal ticket however then they deserve to go under. Hopefully once they have caught up, the tariff will be scrapped? Stan Shannon wrote: the countries in which these companies operate give them subsidies to offset the losses they sustain by selling cheap here in the U.S I really see that as a big problem in economics. Somewhere, someone or some industry is footing the bill for those subsidies. Eventually it will come around and bite the country in the ass if they don't stop subsidising. Subsidising initially is fine, but to just carry on doing it is daft. I just thought of something: I will bet some of the money America gives to developing nations is used to subsidise these steel companies which then undercut the American producers. How ironic, and disrespectful of the developing nations. *Paul wipes the worlds slate clean and starts everything anew* I wonder how long it would take for us to get in the same pickle we are in now? :| Thanks for the info Stan, you are indeed a wise.. errr.. tree. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: How ironic, and disrespectful of the developing nations. So true! Our steel industry was all but wiped out 20 years ago by Japan - the government subsidies they received made it affordable to update their smelters and foundries while ours could not. The time to bite the bullet and invest was then, not a couple of decades later! Tariffs are never a good idea, but governments know only how to tax and restrict - they have no talent for promoting growth. I was taught in Econ 101 that if country A can produce widgets more efficiently than country B, then country B is wasting resources by throwing them into making widgets. Those resources should be invested in doing something they are better at then country A. That still makes sense to me...
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Paul Watson wrote: What does a federal europe actually mean? What kind of authoritative structure is in place in a federation? I spent a few minutes trying to write a simple answer, it didn't come easily but here it is. Increasing, especially since the second world war, Europeans have felt an increasing greater sense of shared history, politcs, economics, culture and goals. Having individual goverments as doing similar things and all saying similar things seems increasing like waste. Member states of this 'Federal Union' we call the E.U. are increasing devolving power on certain issues to cental government, who are then responsible for them. Effectivily Europe is becoming a United States of Europe, and there are many of us who are very happy with this, and many who are not. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
Ray Kinsella wrote: I spent a few minutes trying to write a simple answer, it didn't come easily but here it is Thanks Ray. One thing though. A federation of states like the USA is, or was, a lot more achievable than trying to tie Europe together. The States was an "unpopulated" land effectively (respects and apologies to any indigenious Indians (American Indians Nish, not Asian Indians)) and the states that formed were formed by a relatively similar bunch. e.g. They all pretty much spoke English. They all had only been there a short time. Yes there were French, Brits and other nations involved but initially at the formation of the States they were a similar bunch, weren't they? Anyway. Europe on the other hand has a thousand year old history. Each "state" has a different language, different culture and a different belief system. If you go from California to Texas yes there will be differences but not that much. If you go from the UK to France you find a totally different culture and language. However, one thing the Europeans have in common is the wisdom to realise the benefits of "uniting". Something us Africans need to recognise fast. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
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Paul Watson wrote: And I think it is everything to do with patriotism, but for politics sake. They are saying "vote for us because as you can see with our patriotic steel tariff we are helping our FELLOW AMERICANS." Thats patriotism being used for politics. yeah, true. i guess i was thinking of the more nationalistic side of patriotism, which is more about "You suck , we don't". Paul Watson wrote: You guys can take not being top of the steel producing pile, you have such excess and such a solid base that your steel workers can go do something else and live good lives. the towns that are home to these steel mills are going to be in tough shape if the mills close. it's not just the 400 steel workers - it's their 2.5 kids and their spouse. then there are the banks, car dealers and movie theaters and the coffee shop, and the McDonalds that serve them lunch, plus the grocery store and the WalMart where they spend their pay. it's easy to say "find another job" but there aren't many jobs around right now for people with those skills (or any skills, really) - especially in the sections of the country where steel production is located. i don't think there's an easy answer to this. it's a lose-lose situation for everyone. without a tarrif the mills go out of business and take down the surrounding towns with them, which costs Bush's party many votes. with the tarrif, we piss off a bunch of other countries. there's more: the auto industry is opposed to the tarrif. the tarrif keeps the steel mills in business, but raises the price of steel for the people who buy steel; so they have to charge more for what they produce, which usually means fewer sales. but the price of steel doesn't go up in Japan, only in the US. and that means imported cars get cheaper (relatively). and that's just the auto industry - there's also construction and a whole host of other manufacturing sectors that use steel. and this also costs Bush's party a bunch of votes. Paul Watson wrote: Though I wouldn't want to be an actual American, btw. why not? -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. You're the icing - on the cake - on the table - at my wake. Modest Mouse
Chris Losinger wrote: why not? Look, no disrespect to educated, cultured Americans but from my experience the average American is rather uncultured and very boorish. You are gung ho, ra ra, overpowering... things I don't enjoy. I don't enjoy the whole over the top patriotism (I love my country and would die for it but I don't feel the need to shove it down everyones throats) and many other things that typify an American repulse me. Generalisations may be bad things but just like cliches they are generalisations because on average they are true. The French are arrogant, the Italians annoying, the Germans humourless, the Brits pomposs and the Americans uncultured. If you live in a country you do take on it's culture and traits, it is hard to do otherwise as you are saturated by it each and every day. What about South Africans? Well, we are very young nation and don't really have a typical South African model. We are so varied. We have every type and that gives me the liberty to be what I want, do what I want and "associate" with whom I want. Sounds stuck up but it is freedom really. I know America has it all really, but I love being a South African and being an underdog. I have the "typical yank" firmly fixed in my head and I don't want to be one. As I said, no disrespect and I know most of it is generalisations, but I still do not want to be an American, born, bred or otherwise. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
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If you want to talk about the evils of tariffs, then go ahead. But to single out this tariffs as being better or worse than any other is pointless. Tim Smith I know what you're thinking punk, you're thinking did he spell check this document? Well, to tell you the truth I kinda forgot myself in all this excitement. But being this here's CodeProject, the most powerful forums in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question, Do I feel lucky? Well do ya punk?
Tim Smith wrote: If you want to talk about the evils of tariffs, then go ahead. But to single out this tariffs as being better or worse than any other is pointless. :) got to start somewhere and I was just verbalising in general. I don't know enough about the topic to target the steel tariff. Do you have hidden angst regarding tariffs, hmm Tim? ;) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
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Stan Shannon wrote: Personally, although I think the countries that do that should stop, I think our industry is full of crap. I think they need to knuckle down, invest in improvements, and compete. Bit of a chicken and egg scenario. They are behind and need a break to get up to being competitive, but the world won't give them a break because they are not competitive. Then of course the rest of the world moans when they are given a break. So, maybe, just maybe Bush is giving them the break they need to catch up. If that is the case, then I am ok with it. If they sit around on their asses hoping the tariff is their meal ticket however then they deserve to go under. Hopefully once they have caught up, the tariff will be scrapped? Stan Shannon wrote: the countries in which these companies operate give them subsidies to offset the losses they sustain by selling cheap here in the U.S I really see that as a big problem in economics. Somewhere, someone or some industry is footing the bill for those subsidies. Eventually it will come around and bite the country in the ass if they don't stop subsidising. Subsidising initially is fine, but to just carry on doing it is daft. I just thought of something: I will bet some of the money America gives to developing nations is used to subsidise these steel companies which then undercut the American producers. How ironic, and disrespectful of the developing nations. *Paul wipes the worlds slate clean and starts everything anew* I wonder how long it would take for us to get in the same pickle we are in now? :| Thanks for the info Stan, you are indeed a wise.. errr.. tree. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: So, maybe, just maybe Bush is giving them the break they need to catch up. If that is the case, then I am ok with it. If they sit around on their asses hoping the tariff is their meal ticket however then they deserve to go under. Hopefully once they have caught up, the tariff will be scrapped? The tariff is temporary. It ends in three years, I think(???). But I doubt it will make much of a difference in our steel industry. At the end of three years, they will just ask for more. Paul Watson wrote: I really see that as a big problem in economics. Somewhere, someone or some industry is footing the bill for those subsidies. Eventually it will come around and bite the country in the ass if they don't stop subsidising. Subsidising initially is fine, but to just carry on doing it is daft. Exactly. Its a case of every country trying to keep their citizens happy at the cost of true free market global capitalism. That is going to hurt all of us in the end. Paul Watson wrote: I just thought of something: I will bet some of the money America gives to developing nations is used to subsidise these steel companies which then undercut the American producers. How ironic, and disrespectful of the developing nations. Yes. I can't help but wonder about that myself. Paul Watson wrote: Thanks for the info Stan, you are indeed a wise.. errr.. tree. Well, you know, there is always the possibility that I am completely full of shit.:-O "There's a slew of slip 'twixt cup and lip"
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Ray Kinsella wrote: I spent a few minutes trying to write a simple answer, it didn't come easily but here it is Thanks Ray. One thing though. A federation of states like the USA is, or was, a lot more achievable than trying to tie Europe together. The States was an "unpopulated" land effectively (respects and apologies to any indigenious Indians (American Indians Nish, not Asian Indians)) and the states that formed were formed by a relatively similar bunch. e.g. They all pretty much spoke English. They all had only been there a short time. Yes there were French, Brits and other nations involved but initially at the formation of the States they were a similar bunch, weren't they? Anyway. Europe on the other hand has a thousand year old history. Each "state" has a different language, different culture and a different belief system. If you go from California to Texas yes there will be differences but not that much. If you go from the UK to France you find a totally different culture and language. However, one thing the Europeans have in common is the wisdom to realise the benefits of "uniting". Something us Africans need to recognise fast. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: One thing though. A federation of states like the USA is, or was, a lot more achievable than trying to tie Europe together. The States was an "unpopulated" land effectively (respects and apologies to any indigenious Indians (American Indians Nish, not Asian Indians)) and the states that formed were formed by a relatively similar bunch. e.g. They all pretty much spoke English. They all had only been there a short time. I think they prefer the term Native American. Also, what do you call someone with American citizenship, but Asian Indian ethnicity if not American Indian? Indian American? :) Oops! Forgot the sig. Regards, Dan
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Paul Watson wrote: So, maybe, just maybe Bush is giving them the break they need to catch up. If that is the case, then I am ok with it. If they sit around on their asses hoping the tariff is their meal ticket however then they deserve to go under. Hopefully once they have caught up, the tariff will be scrapped? The tariff is temporary. It ends in three years, I think(???). But I doubt it will make much of a difference in our steel industry. At the end of three years, they will just ask for more. Paul Watson wrote: I really see that as a big problem in economics. Somewhere, someone or some industry is footing the bill for those subsidies. Eventually it will come around and bite the country in the ass if they don't stop subsidising. Subsidising initially is fine, but to just carry on doing it is daft. Exactly. Its a case of every country trying to keep their citizens happy at the cost of true free market global capitalism. That is going to hurt all of us in the end. Paul Watson wrote: I just thought of something: I will bet some of the money America gives to developing nations is used to subsidise these steel companies which then undercut the American producers. How ironic, and disrespectful of the developing nations. Yes. I can't help but wonder about that myself. Paul Watson wrote: Thanks for the info Stan, you are indeed a wise.. errr.. tree. Well, you know, there is always the possibility that I am completely full of shit.:-O "There's a slew of slip 'twixt cup and lip"
Stan Shannon wrote: Well, you know, there is always the possibility that I am completely full of shit. Well then you could be a well fertilised and wise tree. ;P Stan Shannon wrote: At the end of three years, they will just ask for more. So Americans and South Africans are not so different X| I am off to go buy some KFC for dinner, watch West Wing and read a book printed by an American publisher. On the way I am sure to change out of my western style suit and into some western style surf shorts and a t-shirt. Funny how other Africans don't see the problem with that... regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
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Paul Watson wrote: How ironic, and disrespectful of the developing nations. So true! Our steel industry was all but wiped out 20 years ago by Japan - the government subsidies they received made it affordable to update their smelters and foundries while ours could not. The time to bite the bullet and invest was then, not a couple of decades later! Tariffs are never a good idea, but governments know only how to tax and restrict - they have no talent for promoting growth. I was taught in Econ 101 that if country A can produce widgets more efficiently than country B, then country B is wasting resources by throwing them into making widgets. Those resources should be invested in doing something they are better at then country A. That still makes sense to me...
Roger Wright wrote: I was taught in Econ 101 that if country A can produce widgets more efficiently than country B, then country B is wasting resources by throwing them into making widgets. Those resources should be invested in doing something they are better at then country A. That still makes sense to me... I totally agree, and I did not even do economics 101 in school. Countries surrounding SA are pretty good at producing clothe and textiles, we are not up to their standards (I don't know why, but they are.) We are good at the actual production of wearable clothing out of it. They supply us with clothe and we supply them with Nike shirts and Billabong shorts. I don't see the problem. But tons of our guys are bitching that we should be using inferior and costlier SA clothe. Sure, lovely and patriotic and all but why cripple our clothes makers for the sake of the cloth makers? They say "but we will loose our jobs" and I say "go make clothes you dumb [rude word!]s." It is a free world, or we strive for it at least, but daft stuff like using only your countries comodities just for the sake of patriotism is not actually a good thing. Be competitive, not subsidised I say. Get on with the bloody job, stop moaning, go global. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
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Chris Losinger wrote: why not? Look, no disrespect to educated, cultured Americans but from my experience the average American is rather uncultured and very boorish. You are gung ho, ra ra, overpowering... things I don't enjoy. I don't enjoy the whole over the top patriotism (I love my country and would die for it but I don't feel the need to shove it down everyones throats) and many other things that typify an American repulse me. Generalisations may be bad things but just like cliches they are generalisations because on average they are true. The French are arrogant, the Italians annoying, the Germans humourless, the Brits pomposs and the Americans uncultured. If you live in a country you do take on it's culture and traits, it is hard to do otherwise as you are saturated by it each and every day. What about South Africans? Well, we are very young nation and don't really have a typical South African model. We are so varied. We have every type and that gives me the liberty to be what I want, do what I want and "associate" with whom I want. Sounds stuck up but it is freedom really. I know America has it all really, but I love being a South African and being an underdog. I have the "typical yank" firmly fixed in my head and I don't want to be one. As I said, no disrespect and I know most of it is generalisations, but I still do not want to be an American, born, bred or otherwise. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
Just curious: Where do you get the "typical yank" image from? TV, a few people you know, the "outlaw programmer"?
Eddie Velasquez: A Squeezed Devil (Don't you just love that anagram craze?)
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