Americas place in the world
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Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: Foriegners feed off of our generally good and trusting nature, and then kick sand in our faces when it's convenient. I say screw 'em. May I quote Roddy Doyle when I say, 'you couldn't wipe your arse' with the humanitarian aid donated by the U.S. to the world in general, it is usually about 3% of GDP in the US, in the EU it is just under 7%. I love americans and their dillusion that there are giving away their riches to undeserving and ungrateful world. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
Three percent of our GDP is much higher (in terms of dollar amount) than any other country's. And your precious EU is not a single country, but is rather a group of countries, so how is THAT an equal comparison? And what part of europe suddenly doesn't think we should have pulled their collective asses out from under Hitler's boot? If it wasn't for the U.S., the world would be eating sourkraut for dinner every night, and washing it down with a healthy helping of sake. Okay, so we've saved the world a couple of times, liberated Afghanistan (twice), out-lasted the communist threat in Europe, provided BILLIONS in un-repaid aid, and we're the fuckin bad guys? I don't know where you're from Ray, but I think you need to re-evaluate just how indebted the world is (as a whole) to the industrial, military, and philathropic strength. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Ray Kinsella wrote: humanitarian aid donated by the U.S. to the world in general, it is usually about 3% of GDP in the US, in the EU it is just under 7%. Hog wash!! Percentages mean absolutely nothing!! If I give you 7% of my net worth, you'd get about $30,000. If Bill Gates gives you 3% of his net worth it would be a cool $1,560,000,000. Which would you prefer? I wish I could find the link (I'll keep looking) but I saw recently a report that stated that the US gave more (money, food, goods & services) away per year than the rest of the world combined.
Mike Mullikin "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
Mike Mullikin wrote: I wish I could find the link (I'll keep looking) but I saw recently a report that stated that the US gave more (money, food, goods & services) away per year than the rest of the world combined. A ficitous report perhaps, now the following statistics come from 'Source: Adapted from Jeff Madrick, "Economic Scene," The New York Times, November 1, 2001, p. C2. Table based on World Bank data. I am sure will respect the source as an American newspaper.
TABLE A GDP Devoted to Development Aid, 1999 Country / Aid in Billions of Dollars / Aid as Proportion of GDP Netherlands / 3.1/ 0.0079 France / 5.6/ 0.0039 Japan / 15.3/ 0.0035 Germany / 5.5/ 0.0026 Great Britain / 3.4 / 0.0023 United States/ 9.1 /0.0010
As you can see, percentages or no percentages the four EU member states France, Germany, Britain and Netherlans, with a combined population of about 200 million (160 million less than the US) give 17.7 billion dollars as against the US's 9.1 billion . Add the rest of the EU member states ... how much aid do you end up with. You also have to remember that over 50% of US aid in military aid (to keep their own Arms industry ticking over) how much aid do you end up with ??????? http://www.hbcollege.com/business\_stats/kohler/resources/stats/ch07\_1.html http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/jul98/23\_13\_097.html Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Ray Kinsella wrote: humanitarian aid donated by the U.S. to the world in general, it is usually about 3% of GDP in the US, in the EU it is just under 7%. Hog wash!! Percentages mean absolutely nothing!! If I give you 7% of my net worth, you'd get about $30,000. If Bill Gates gives you 3% of his net worth it would be a cool $1,560,000,000. Which would you prefer? I wish I could find the link (I'll keep looking) but I saw recently a report that stated that the US gave more (money, food, goods & services) away per year than the rest of the world combined.
Mike Mullikin "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
Mike Mullikin wrote: I wish I could find the link (I'll keep looking) but I saw recently a report that stated that the US gave more (money, food, goods & services) away per year than the rest of the world combined. A ficitous report perhaps, now the following statistics come from 'Source: Adapted from Jeff Madrick, "Economic Scene," The New York Times, November 1, 2001, p. C2. Table based on World Bank data. I am sure will respect the source as an American newspaper.
TABLE A GDP Devoted to Development Aid, 1999 Country / Aid in Billions of Dollars / Aid as Proportion of GDP Netherlands / 3.1/ 0.0079 France / 5.6/ 0.0039 Japan / 15.3/ 0.0035 Germany / 5.5/ 0.0026 Great Britain / 3.4 / 0.0023 United States/ 9.1 /0.0010
As you can see, percentages or no percentages the four EU member states France, Germany, Britain and Netherlans, with a combined population of about 200 million (160 million less than the US) give 17.7 billion dollars as against the US's 9.1 billion . Add the rest of the EU member states ... how much aid do you end up with. You also have to remember that over 50% of US aid in military aid (to keep their own Arms industry ticking over) how much aid do you end up with ??????? http://www.hbcollege.com/business\_stats/kohler/resources/stats/ch07\_1.html http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/jul98/23\_13\_097.html Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Vagif Abilov wrote: Perhaps, next time you'll think twice before dumping "lot of aid" to Bin Laden, as US did in 80's? wait, it's our fault that the ungrateful bastard turned on his benefactors? -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. You're the icing - on the cake - on the table - at my wake. Modest Mouse
It's certainly fault to support ungrateful bastards. Vagif Abilov COM+/ATL/MFC Developer Oslo, Norway
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Mike Mullikin wrote: I wish I could find the link (I'll keep looking) but I saw recently a report that stated that the US gave more (money, food, goods & services) away per year than the rest of the world combined. A ficitous report perhaps, now the following statistics come from 'Source: Adapted from Jeff Madrick, "Economic Scene," The New York Times, November 1, 2001, p. C2. Table based on World Bank data. I am sure will respect the source as an American newspaper.
TABLE A GDP Devoted to Development Aid, 1999 Country / Aid in Billions of Dollars / Aid as Proportion of GDP Netherlands / 3.1/ 0.0079 France / 5.6/ 0.0039 Japan / 15.3/ 0.0035 Germany / 5.5/ 0.0026 Great Britain / 3.4 / 0.0023 United States/ 9.1 /0.0010
As you can see, percentages or no percentages the four EU member states France, Germany, Britain and Netherlans, with a combined population of about 200 million (160 million less than the US) give 17.7 billion dollars as against the US's 9.1 billion . Add the rest of the EU member states ... how much aid do you end up with. You also have to remember that over 50% of US aid in military aid (to keep their own Arms industry ticking over) how much aid do you end up with ??????? http://www.hbcollege.com/business\_stats/kohler/resources/stats/ch07\_1.html http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/jul98/23\_13\_097.html Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
the US, and Japan combined gave almost twice as much as GB, Germany France and the Netherlands, combined. -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. You're the icing - on the cake - on the table - at my wake. Modest Mouse
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There was talk after Sep 11 about Americans re-evaluating their way of aiding nations, and in fact, the way they provide aid in general. America is hugely generous but I was reading about many organisations and individuals going through a period of introspection where they were realising that giving cash doesn't necessarily mean giving aid. From an organisations point of view handing over large amounts of cash or food to another country may not actually be what they need - instead they may just need help getting people educated, or engineers to help drill wells etc. From an individuals point of view donating cash to charity in order to make your society a better place isn't the same as volunteering, or simply making the effort to help out a random stranger, or taking the time to meet and understand your neighbours. A lot of this was prompted by the US starting to question the effects of it's involvment in the Middle East, which seemed a great step forward. I've not heard anything more about this so it would definitely be interesting to see the question from both sides: How does America feel about the rest of the world and how are America's understanding about the rest of the world changing? cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote: How does America feel about the rest of the world and how are America's understanding about the rest of the world changing? America wishes the rest of the world would go away and leave us alone. :) Maybe the average citizen would like a change in US policy, but the govt ain't gonna do it. -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. You're the icing - on the cake - on the table - at my wake. Modest Mouse
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the US, and Japan combined gave almost twice as much as GB, Germany France and the Netherlands, combined. -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. You're the icing - on the cake - on the table - at my wake. Modest Mouse
Yes, Japan gave 15 billion we should aspire to be that generous, amost twice as much as the us but still less than the European contribution. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Three percent of our GDP is much higher (in terms of dollar amount) than any other country's. And your precious EU is not a single country, but is rather a group of countries, so how is THAT an equal comparison? And what part of europe suddenly doesn't think we should have pulled their collective asses out from under Hitler's boot? If it wasn't for the U.S., the world would be eating sourkraut for dinner every night, and washing it down with a healthy helping of sake. Okay, so we've saved the world a couple of times, liberated Afghanistan (twice), out-lasted the communist threat in Europe, provided BILLIONS in un-repaid aid, and we're the fuckin bad guys? I don't know where you're from Ray, but I think you need to re-evaluate just how indebted the world is (as a whole) to the industrial, military, and philathropic strength. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: Three percent of our GDP is much higher (in terms of dollar amount) than any other country's. And your precious EU is not a single country, but is rather a group of countries, so how is THAT an equal comparison? Can I dispel you illusions with statistics to be found at the following URL http://www.hbcollege.com/business\_stats/kohler/resources/stats/ch07\_1.html . Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: And what part of europe suddenly doesn't think we should have pulled their collective asses out from under Hitler's boot? If it wasn't for the U.S., the world would be eating sourkraut for dinner every night, and washing it down with a healthy helping of sake. It always comes back to the fucking second world war with you? It was lonnngggg time ago, get over it, the rest the bloody world has, its past tense, even Russia who is the final anaylsis probabily won the damn things all by herself, and suffered 30 million casualties got over it. So you want a cookie for winning the war, well at this stage you have had the whole box. Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: I don't know where you're from Ray, but I think you need to re-evaluate just how indebted the world is (as a whole) to the industrial, military, and philathropic strength. The world I deal in is more simple, you think the world is indepted to you, the world owes you something, well it doesn't, other nations have been doing far more, for far longer to fill empty bellies and never complained. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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First, here is The PROPHET, by Kahlil Gibran online. However fear not copyrighters and naysayers, I will buy the book as well. On to the topic then. With the steel war debate raging on below I began to think of the position America is in and the responsibilities of that position. Firstly, America is a success and I respect it for achieving what it has achieved. Culturally I do not credit America with much, but economically and structurally they are too be respected. America has helped my country a lot, and without having to ever send troops over even once. I also believe that is has helped a lot other countries in many ways. However none of us have much respect for what America has done and in fact we can be pretty pathetic in our attitude towards America. A case in point is the many African countries groveling and beging for money from America on one side while moaning and calling America names for interfering on the other side. That is a really sad state of affairs and all us developing nations need to shut up and give America what it is due. However, all that been said and done just how do Americans feel about their involvement with other countries? Do they through sending aid feel they have a right to step in with troops later on when/if things go bad? Do they feel that giving aid is all they should do and they should stop interfering/helping out other countries? Do Americans feel that if they stopped giving aid, stopped helping other countries that they should still retain some form of right to "interfere" in those other countries? I guess my real question is this: How do actual Americans feel about what they do for the rest of the world, and how do actual Americans feel about how the rest of the world treats them back? If I was an American, I think I would be pretty damned pissed off with virtually every other country. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
If only such things could be easily evaluated as a boolean statement: this is good, this is bad. Unfortunately, the actions of any nation (including my own country, America) are based first on survival, and secondly on morality and culture. These actions and decisions are difficult and based on the horrendously complex and ever changing scenarios of world politics and interaction. The only reason that any country, mine or yours, is not overrun and conquered by aggressors is due to its inherent ability to defend itself through a combination of strength at arms, alliances and positioning. The latter two are complicated considerations indeed. Simply put, if the cost of conquest exceeds the potential benefits, predatory nations look elsewhere. That's how any nation maintains its freedom. Allies and world opinion are critical aspects of this deterence. The only reason that we were attacked September 11th by crashing passenger planes into buildings is because our attackers lacked the military strength to land on our shores, fight us (and our allies) and conquer our country, to then run as they think it should be run. If they had that power, America would no longer exist other than in memory. This is simply the nature of humanity, and it hasn't changed throughout all of human history. What does this have to do with America's policy of aid (and interference)? Everything, almost exclusively. America tries to be a good and honorable nation. But then, so does every other country, each within its own cultural context. However, morality does not act as the primary impulse for the actions of nations. Survival does. Aid brings allies. Meddling and positioning (for good or ill) is a preemptive aspect of self defense. It is no more possible to say that America is a good or bad country than it is to broadly characterize any group of people. People are individuals. Some will embrace noble ideas, and live by them. Others will talk the talk, but live only for their own selfish interests. We have both in America, just as there are both in every square mile of the world. Emotionally, I have little patience for those who take our help with one hand and flip us the finger with the other. Practically, however, I understand that life, and world politics, just ain't that simple. I take no joy in my government meddling in the affairs of others, but I prefer that to fighing someone else's tanks in rush hour traffic. Sound extreme? There are those who live in countries where that is a reality. I can assure you, if I looked out the wind
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Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: Three percent of our GDP is much higher (in terms of dollar amount) than any other country's. And your precious EU is not a single country, but is rather a group of countries, so how is THAT an equal comparison? Can I dispel you illusions with statistics to be found at the following URL http://www.hbcollege.com/business\_stats/kohler/resources/stats/ch07\_1.html . Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: And what part of europe suddenly doesn't think we should have pulled their collective asses out from under Hitler's boot? If it wasn't for the U.S., the world would be eating sourkraut for dinner every night, and washing it down with a healthy helping of sake. It always comes back to the fucking second world war with you? It was lonnngggg time ago, get over it, the rest the bloody world has, its past tense, even Russia who is the final anaylsis probabily won the damn things all by herself, and suffered 30 million casualties got over it. So you want a cookie for winning the war, well at this stage you have had the whole box. Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: I don't know where you're from Ray, but I think you need to re-evaluate just how indebted the world is (as a whole) to the industrial, military, and philathropic strength. The world I deal in is more simple, you think the world is indepted to you, the world owes you something, well it doesn't, other nations have been doing far more, for far longer to fill empty bellies and never complained. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
Ray Kinsella wrote: It always comes back to the f***ing second world war with you? It was lonnngggg time ago, get over it, the rest the bloody world has, its past tense, even Russia who is the final anaylsis probabily won the damn things all by herself, and suffered 30 million casualties got over it. So you want a cookie for winning the war, well at this stage you have had the whole box. Really?! Tell the millions of surviving veterans world-wide that WWII is old news and needs to be forgotten. Tell the millions of people alive today who never met their fathers because they died in WWII to "get over it". That war ended 57 years ago. A very, VERY short time ago in the scope of world history. As for Russia having won it by herself? I don't think so! Russia's 30 million casualties. A huge portion can be attributed to Stalin himself. Is that the kind of super-power you would wish on the world? Ray Kinsella wrote: The world I deal in is more simple, you think the world is indepted to you, the world owes you something, well it doesn't, other nations have been doing far more, for far longer to fill empty bellies and never complained. Americans aren't looking for anything other than a little respect now and then. That and not being blamed for every problem in the world. You know, every once in a while, things aren't our fault.
Mike Mullikin "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
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Mike Mullikin wrote: I wish I could find the link (I'll keep looking) but I saw recently a report that stated that the US gave more (money, food, goods & services) away per year than the rest of the world combined. A ficitous report perhaps, now the following statistics come from 'Source: Adapted from Jeff Madrick, "Economic Scene," The New York Times, November 1, 2001, p. C2. Table based on World Bank data. I am sure will respect the source as an American newspaper.
TABLE A GDP Devoted to Development Aid, 1999 Country / Aid in Billions of Dollars / Aid as Proportion of GDP Netherlands / 3.1/ 0.0079 France / 5.6/ 0.0039 Japan / 15.3/ 0.0035 Germany / 5.5/ 0.0026 Great Britain / 3.4 / 0.0023 United States/ 9.1 /0.0010
As you can see, percentages or no percentages the four EU member states France, Germany, Britain and Netherlans, with a combined population of about 200 million (160 million less than the US) give 17.7 billion dollars as against the US's 9.1 billion . Add the rest of the EU member states ... how much aid do you end up with. You also have to remember that over 50% of US aid in military aid (to keep their own Arms industry ticking over) how much aid do you end up with ??????? http://www.hbcollege.com/business\_stats/kohler/resources/stats/ch07\_1.html http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/jul98/23\_13\_097.html Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
That table looks skewed. I looked at both of the sites you mentioned, but neither one gave background into the figures or a proper definition of "aid". What really stands out is Japan. If Japan is giving away 15 billion dollars, where is it going? I've never heard of any great humanitarian efforts put forth by Japan. I wonder if Japan is counting low interest loans to developing nations as "aid". These statitistics remind me of transnational unemployment figures. Japan is in a terrible slump, but the official unemployment rate is only around 6%.
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First, here is The PROPHET, by Kahlil Gibran online. However fear not copyrighters and naysayers, I will buy the book as well. On to the topic then. With the steel war debate raging on below I began to think of the position America is in and the responsibilities of that position. Firstly, America is a success and I respect it for achieving what it has achieved. Culturally I do not credit America with much, but economically and structurally they are too be respected. America has helped my country a lot, and without having to ever send troops over even once. I also believe that is has helped a lot other countries in many ways. However none of us have much respect for what America has done and in fact we can be pretty pathetic in our attitude towards America. A case in point is the many African countries groveling and beging for money from America on one side while moaning and calling America names for interfering on the other side. That is a really sad state of affairs and all us developing nations need to shut up and give America what it is due. However, all that been said and done just how do Americans feel about their involvement with other countries? Do they through sending aid feel they have a right to step in with troops later on when/if things go bad? Do they feel that giving aid is all they should do and they should stop interfering/helping out other countries? Do Americans feel that if they stopped giving aid, stopped helping other countries that they should still retain some form of right to "interfere" in those other countries? I guess my real question is this: How do actual Americans feel about what they do for the rest of the world, and how do actual Americans feel about how the rest of the world treats them back? If I was an American, I think I would be pretty damned pissed off with virtually every other country. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: . Culturally I do not credit America with much Now, I have to take exception to that. Apparently when the rest of the world thinks of American culture they think of McDonalds and Hollywood. As an American I think of things like "constitutional rights" liberty and rugged individualism. *That* is the culture of America. And frankly, I think the world has benfited from it tremendously. The very freedom of speech exercised in this lounge is an example of American culture. Paul Watson wrote: If I was an American, I think I would be pretty damned pissed off with virtually every other country. I think we mostly shrug it all off. I think we have a responsibility to do what we can to help out around the world, and ingratitude does not concern me a bit. I generally just assume that countries that act that way do not know how to raise polite children. Not my problem. As far as interfering with other countries, I don't think it is a matter of choice. If it were, the vast bulk of Americans would opt to just stay at home and let beligerant countries alone. Our founders warned us about 'foriegn adventures'. The problem is that we are typically the only ones able to do anything about problems as they arise around the world. Could you imagine waiting for the Europeans to arrive at a concensus to take action? "There's a slew of slip 'twixt cup and lip"
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That table looks skewed. I looked at both of the sites you mentioned, but neither one gave background into the figures or a proper definition of "aid". What really stands out is Japan. If Japan is giving away 15 billion dollars, where is it going? I've never heard of any great humanitarian efforts put forth by Japan. I wonder if Japan is counting low interest loans to developing nations as "aid". These statitistics remind me of transnational unemployment figures. Japan is in a terrible slump, but the official unemployment rate is only around 6%.
Stuart van Weele wrote: proper definition of "aid". Grants and no/low interest loans given to 2nd/3rd world countries. Stuart van Weele wrote: I've never heard of any great humanitarian efforts put forth by Japan. Post second world war japan has had a history of generousity, particularily in Afirca and the Far East, whereas European aid is usually more directed to Africa, Eastern Europe and South American. American Aid tends to go to Africa and South America. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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That table looks skewed. I looked at both of the sites you mentioned, but neither one gave background into the figures or a proper definition of "aid". What really stands out is Japan. If Japan is giving away 15 billion dollars, where is it going? I've never heard of any great humanitarian efforts put forth by Japan. I wonder if Japan is counting low interest loans to developing nations as "aid". These statitistics remind me of transnational unemployment figures. Japan is in a terrible slump, but the official unemployment rate is only around 6%.
Stuart van Weele wrote: I wonder if Japan is counting low interest loans to developing nations as "aid". heh. given Japan's current banking conditions, a loan with any interest at all is a money making situation for the bank. -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. You're the icing - on the cake - on the table - at my wake. Modest Mouse
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Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: Three percent of our GDP is much higher (in terms of dollar amount) than any other country's. And your precious EU is not a single country, but is rather a group of countries, so how is THAT an equal comparison? Can I dispel you illusions with statistics to be found at the following URL http://www.hbcollege.com/business\_stats/kohler/resources/stats/ch07\_1.html . Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: And what part of europe suddenly doesn't think we should have pulled their collective asses out from under Hitler's boot? If it wasn't for the U.S., the world would be eating sourkraut for dinner every night, and washing it down with a healthy helping of sake. It always comes back to the fucking second world war with you? It was lonnngggg time ago, get over it, the rest the bloody world has, its past tense, even Russia who is the final anaylsis probabily won the damn things all by herself, and suffered 30 million casualties got over it. So you want a cookie for winning the war, well at this stage you have had the whole box. Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: I don't know where you're from Ray, but I think you need to re-evaluate just how indebted the world is (as a whole) to the industrial, military, and philathropic strength. The world I deal in is more simple, you think the world is indepted to you, the world owes you something, well it doesn't, other nations have been doing far more, for far longer to fill empty bellies and never complained. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
Ray Kinsella wrote: It always comes back to the f***ing second world war with you? It was lonnngggg time ago, get over it, the rest the bloody world has, its past tense, even Russia who is the final anaylsis probabily won the damn things all by herself, and suffered 30 million casualties got over it. So you want a cookie for winning the war, well at this stage you have had the whole box Without the U.S. propping the Soviets up militarily the German's would have crushed them like a tin can. Of course, the fact that the Soviets were every bit and grain as bad as the Nazi's, and that after defeating the Nazi's, we had to contain them for 40 years, and did so without it leading to a major world war, is all water under the bridge, I suppose. The entire history of the 20th century is about the U.S. saving Europe from its own incredible political imbicility. "There's a slew of slip 'twixt cup and lip"
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First, here is The PROPHET, by Kahlil Gibran online. However fear not copyrighters and naysayers, I will buy the book as well. On to the topic then. With the steel war debate raging on below I began to think of the position America is in and the responsibilities of that position. Firstly, America is a success and I respect it for achieving what it has achieved. Culturally I do not credit America with much, but economically and structurally they are too be respected. America has helped my country a lot, and without having to ever send troops over even once. I also believe that is has helped a lot other countries in many ways. However none of us have much respect for what America has done and in fact we can be pretty pathetic in our attitude towards America. A case in point is the many African countries groveling and beging for money from America on one side while moaning and calling America names for interfering on the other side. That is a really sad state of affairs and all us developing nations need to shut up and give America what it is due. However, all that been said and done just how do Americans feel about their involvement with other countries? Do they through sending aid feel they have a right to step in with troops later on when/if things go bad? Do they feel that giving aid is all they should do and they should stop interfering/helping out other countries? Do Americans feel that if they stopped giving aid, stopped helping other countries that they should still retain some form of right to "interfere" in those other countries? I guess my real question is this: How do actual Americans feel about what they do for the rest of the world, and how do actual Americans feel about how the rest of the world treats them back? If I was an American, I think I would be pretty damned pissed off with virtually every other country. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
hey Paul, check out www.LewRockwell.com sometime. You might like the guy from Zimbabwe who writes for them - he appears about every 2 weeks or so.
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Roger Wright wrote: We dump an awful lot of aid here and there, and for the most part, it buys us little. Perhaps, next time you'll think twice before dumping "lot of aid" to Bin Laden, as US did in 80's? IMHO the sad thing about other people's attitude towards US is not that they don't appreciate American aids (I don't believe in free lunch either), but that they ignore amount of industrial and techological achievements America gave to the World. Vagif Abilov COM+/ATL/MFC Developer Oslo, Norway
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It's my understanding that Bin Laden hated the US in the 1980s, and didn't accept US aid. He certainly has inherited enough money that he would've never needed US money, anyway.
AFAIK it's more tricky. Here's somewhat simplified version. When USSR invaded Afghanistan, USA invested a fortune in Bin Laden's troops (I read about hundreds of millions USD). But in 1991 when Saddam invaded Kuwait, the relationship broke since Bin Ladden was not selected as part of aliance forces. It's about this time he turned against his former sponsors. But I'll never believe they didn't know what kind of monster he was. The moral of the story: don't give guns to maniacs, whoever side they take. Vagif Abilov COM+/ATL/MFC Developer Oslo, Norway
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Ray Kinsella wrote: It always comes back to the f***ing second world war with you? It was lonnngggg time ago, get over it, the rest the bloody world has, its past tense, even Russia who is the final anaylsis probabily won the damn things all by herself, and suffered 30 million casualties got over it. So you want a cookie for winning the war, well at this stage you have had the whole box. Really?! Tell the millions of surviving veterans world-wide that WWII is old news and needs to be forgotten. Tell the millions of people alive today who never met their fathers because they died in WWII to "get over it". That war ended 57 years ago. A very, VERY short time ago in the scope of world history. As for Russia having won it by herself? I don't think so! Russia's 30 million casualties. A huge portion can be attributed to Stalin himself. Is that the kind of super-power you would wish on the world? Ray Kinsella wrote: The world I deal in is more simple, you think the world is indepted to you, the world owes you something, well it doesn't, other nations have been doing far more, for far longer to fill empty bellies and never complained. Americans aren't looking for anything other than a little respect now and then. That and not being blamed for every problem in the world. You know, every once in a while, things aren't our fault.
Mike Mullikin "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
Mike Mullikin wrote: As for Russia having won it by herself? I don't think so! Russia's 30 million casualties. A huge portion can be attributed to Stalin himself. Is that the kind of super-power you would wish on the world? When USA joined the battles in Europe, it was obvious that Russia was winning on their side. It was after Stalingrad. Vagif Abilov COM+/ATL/MFC Developer Oslo, Norway
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I think we should stop providing aid to countries that don't appear to appreciate our efforts or that can't maintain some form of stable governing body that establishes an acceptable poilicy towards equality and general human rights. No single country in the world has the philanthropic attitude towards others like the American people. More money leaves this country through charities than anywhere else on earth, yet we do NOT ask for aid ourselves from beyond our own borders. Foriegners feed off of our generally good and trusting nature, and then kick sand in our faces when it's convenient. I say screw 'em. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Frankly, I think your claims of aid are somehow arrogant to the rest of the world. There are 170 countries in the world and you aid dozen hotspots. These are mostly related to your interests, such as: keeping nuclear weapons out of reach of hostile countries, keeping the price of oil down to protect your economy's growth, etc. This is not wrong. In fact, the law of invisible hand of Adam Smith plays a major role in this. America entered Afghanistan to protect its country from further terrorist attacks. But as a (hmm...) "collateral benefit" Afghan women are more free today that they were half a year ago. They might even get the right to vote. America entered Iraq because it feared that the 70ties and the OPEC would repeat in form of Saddam Hussein shaping the world oil price. But as a side effect, Kuwait was liberated. As soon as you start explaining only the "collateral benefits" and forgetting about your own role you are repulsive to the rest of the world. Your arrival to those countries was bilateral. The relationship to those countries is based on healthy foundation of bilateral benefits. So there is absolutely no need to feel superior in this relationship. Seriously, if you ever compared all the aid in the world you'd realize that its not one promile of your military budget. Please do so and report here, I might be wrong. The true America's role in the world are its philosophical and related science achivements. The free economy and laissez faire capitalism has enabled your country to attract all the top world scientists that saw a better chance for their future because America worships and rewards individual achievement more then any country in the world. The laws that allowed people to establish a company for as little as 500 USD, in the garage, the stock exchange that poured risky capital into two junkie'lookin technies, such as Wozniak and Jobs. That's the true power of America and you should really stick to that. Tomaz
