Anti-VB
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Why are so many people outspokenly anti-vb? I think its fine to prefer one language over others, perhaps due to what you are most comfortable with, syntax preference, etc... but why are so many people also anti-vb? Especially if its C# vs VB... Considering there isn't that much different between them :confused: I mean, fine and all if you are more comfortable with the cish syntax, but whats wrong with vb :confused: (note i'm referring to the language and not the people who use it ;P)
Xoy wrote:
Especially if its C# vs VB... Considering there isn't that much different between them I mean, fine and all if you are more comfortable with the cish syntax, but whats wrong with vb
As some have pointed out this is more than a syntax issue. As you have noticed a lot of people have actually programmed in VB before, or had to fix VB, or been asked to stretch it to its limits. When you get down to the nitty gritty, all programming languages are closely related. They all have their syntax, they all have their supporting libraries (that mostly grew out of programmers using the language, some adopted officially later, others as unofficial or alternate standards, and others just to help you get a job done). So how does characterize Snobol, Prolog, Basic, C, C++, Ada, C#, D, Fortran, Pascal, etc.? 1) As pointed out compiler error/warning level support, how well can the compiler help you detect errors a) Is the language set up such that with too many assumptions that you will always compile even when the code is wrong b) Is the language set up such that the compiler just tells you "error line 110" and leaves you pondering what you typed 2) Debugging, profiling, and various other performance monitoring and data trace capability. a) when you have to debug a subtle error, how well will the environment help you do so? b) are the tools to support the language there? 3) User base support, and infrastructure support a) this is actually related to the above, but I bring it up to cover all the little things you never think of. There are hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, they exist, they run, and run clean. But you can't actually drive them out of california because there is no place to fuel them up again! b) everything lives and dies by infrastructure support, from IDEs, libraries, Case tools and design aids with rapid prototyping and getting that prototype to code. Even C++ built itself off the infrastructure of C, Basic created it's own infrastructure in Visual Basic, but that is as far as it went. C# borrowed from both C and VB infrastructure, but also built up its own to surpass VB. Compiler support in C# and test aid support as near as I can tell are superior to VB. My suggestion to anyone is run out and learn a second computer language. I don't care if you are programming in C# or C++, or even still C or VB, even if you are scouring the internet for Ada support, learn a second language. It gives you alternate logic concepts, allows you
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bakerfishsticks wrote:
VB is just a tool same as C++
Yeah, it's a tool, but it's kinda like trying to use a screwdriver to hammer a nail.
bakerfishsticks wrote:
From a business stand point VB is great, you can get an app out very quickly without worring about about the little things.
That's laziness more than it is efficiency.
bakerfishsticks wrote:
Think about it if all businesses used c++ apps would never be on time.
Hmmm, I can't recall an app that I was involved with that was ever delivered late, and every one of them looked better than any VB app you might want to point out.
bakerfishsticks wrote:
But otherwiese just accept VB is a tool some people can use well and some just hack it up which is why we are here.
Nope. As real programmers, we have the god-given right to bash VB (and its small-minded advocates) anytime we see fit... ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
bakerfishsticks wrote: From a business stand point VB is great, you can get an app out very quickly without worring about about the little things. That's laziness more than it is efficiency.
Everything can be called another thing... I've seen lack of implementation called a feature before ;P
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
and every one of them looked better than any VB app you might want to point out.
Theres a lot of bad vb code out there. And bad c/c++ code. and bad everything else :( Theres also good code for each... its just a matter of finding it. A lot of code i've seen in c/c++ is too simple & lacks too much of an interface to be well used... A program consists of more than just code. All good code but an unusable interface won't get you far... The best programs are the ones with a great UI, good code, and good features :cool: Now I could say that the programmer was lazy :rolleyes: ;P (I'm not saying programs you've worked on lack ui, I'm saying a lot of programs in c/c++ don't have as much of a refined interface because its more complicated to do so) Granted a lot of vb programs could use a better interface too :| Whatever works for the job I guess :sigh:
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Look VB is just a tool same as C++ and has its advantages and disadvantages. From a business stand point VB is great, you can get an app out very quickly without worring about about the little things. I think the people that complain about VB are the JAVA/C#/C++ coders because they think using these language makes them an engineer!! HA, C# which i code in and Java are 4gl languages and C++ is nothing more then a 3gl language and most of us only code for business software which really does not require c++ at all. Think about it if all businesses used c++ apps would never be on time. Thank god for java and .net and yes vb. If you want to feel like an engineer use assembly for microprocesser programming, create your own OS. But otherwiese just accept VB is a tool some people can use well and some just hack it up which is why we are here.
bakerfishsticks wrote:
Think about it if all businesses used c++ apps would never be on time.
Are VB apps statistically more likely to "be on time"? I would seriously doubt it. The primary reason for an app being available on time or not is politics, not the language the developers are using. ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
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Yet I am often critisized for trying to do the job for which I've been deposited on this planet. :( ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Well, I for one, can you that this place would be supremely boring without people like you. Tom Archer (blog) Program Manager MSDN Online (Windows Vista and Visual C++) MICROSOFT
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Even if he is, do you think he give's a rat's ass?
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Ed.Poore wrote:
I haven't dared ask
When you do, would you let us know? ;) ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
I would except I get bored :zzz: by this guy when he say's hello so if I ask him this question then I'll have to sneak a tape-recorder in to tape it which technically I shouldn't be doing as it's against school rules and I'm meant to enforce them as head-boy. :( Then again, maybe I'll take some coffee which I cannot stand so that I remain awake long enough in the name of CP research. :) Ed
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espeir wrote:
VB is for losers!!!
It's just a wanna-be programming language. Real programmers program C++. PC
computerguru92382 wrote:
Real programmers program C++.
No, real programmers hand code all those ones and zeros. ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
bakerfishsticks wrote: From a business stand point VB is great, you can get an app out very quickly without worring about about the little things. That's laziness more than it is efficiency.
Everything can be called another thing... I've seen lack of implementation called a feature before ;P
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
and every one of them looked better than any VB app you might want to point out.
Theres a lot of bad vb code out there. And bad c/c++ code. and bad everything else :( Theres also good code for each... its just a matter of finding it. A lot of code i've seen in c/c++ is too simple & lacks too much of an interface to be well used... A program consists of more than just code. All good code but an unusable interface won't get you far... The best programs are the ones with a great UI, good code, and good features :cool: Now I could say that the programmer was lazy :rolleyes: ;P (I'm not saying programs you've worked on lack ui, I'm saying a lot of programs in c/c++ don't have as much of a refined interface because its more complicated to do so) Granted a lot of vb programs could use a better interface too :| Whatever works for the job I guess :sigh:
I agree. Thats why i have a garage full of tools becuase if one did everything well... need i say more.
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I personally dislike VB because of two reasons: 1: As someone mentioned earlier, the option explicit and option strict features 2: Syntax Consider the following two examples, VB .Net
Dim a, b a = 10 b = "ABC" Console.WriteLine(a) Console.WriteLine(b)C#int a = 10; string b = "ABC"; Console.WriteLine(a.ToString()); Console.WriteLine(b);While they both do the exact same thing, for me, C# makes the code more understandable because you have to explicitly tell it what type each variable is, and tell it to convert between types, while with vb, it automatically converts between types. For me, that would make it easier to be sloppy and write unmaintanable code. I am not saying VB programmers are bad, i am just saying that from my perspective, C# seems to have alot of benefits that VB doesnt have.Xoy wrote:
Especially if its C# vs VB... Considering there isn't that much different between them
I think it is all a matter of personal preference.
turn option stict and explicit on always. We require it in our department. Then code Dim a as integer = 10 Dim b as string = "ABC" Console.WriteLine(a.ToString()) Console.WriteLine(b) If you turn On option strict and explicit vb.net is more strict then C#! "People who never make mistakes, never do anything." My Blog
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Hmmm, I can't recall an app that I was involved with that was ever delivered late, and every one of them looked better than any VB app you might want to point out.
that works when your timelines are twice as long.
I'll just be over here, sitting and pondering the consultant-written library (VB.NET) that i'm *still* waiting for delivery on, three weeks since it was promised (now a week away from release, with precious little time left for testing). But hey, there are some good examples of VB programmers out there. I just never get to work with them...
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computerguru92382 wrote:
Real programmers program C++.
No, real programmers hand code all those ones and zeros. ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
real programmers hand code all those ones and zeros
Goodness, me, I shouldn't forget about assembly language... Paul
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I personally dislike VB because of two reasons: 1: As someone mentioned earlier, the option explicit and option strict features 2: Syntax Consider the following two examples, VB .Net
Dim a, b a = 10 b = "ABC" Console.WriteLine(a) Console.WriteLine(b)C#int a = 10; string b = "ABC"; Console.WriteLine(a.ToString()); Console.WriteLine(b);While they both do the exact same thing, for me, C# makes the code more understandable because you have to explicitly tell it what type each variable is, and tell it to convert between types, while with vb, it automatically converts between types. For me, that would make it easier to be sloppy and write unmaintanable code. I am not saying VB programmers are bad, i am just saying that from my perspective, C# seems to have alot of benefits that VB doesnt have.Xoy wrote:
Especially if its C# vs VB... Considering there isn't that much different between them
I think it is all a matter of personal preference.
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
1: As someone mentioned earlier, the option explicit and option strict features
Tools->Options-> Projects and Solutions->VB Defaults: Option Explit: On Option Strict: On Turn those on and its automatic ;) I personally can't stand implicit code... I make everything quite explicit :-D Though I don't see why calling having an option a disadvantage :suss: And technically those two code segments aren't the same thing ;P You should be able to acheive similar results by declaring the variables as objects in C# ;) Though yes, its all part of your point :rolleyes: Still though... whats wrong with more options ;P
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
I think it is all a matter of personal preference.
I'd say so :) Its almost 1-1 line conversions between the two (haven't seen any that needed more actually lol) ;P
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I would except I get bored :zzz: by this guy when he say's hello so if I ask him this question then I'll have to sneak a tape-recorder in to tape it which technically I shouldn't be doing as it's against school rules and I'm meant to enforce them as head-boy. :( Then again, maybe I'll take some coffee which I cannot stand so that I remain awake long enough in the name of CP research. :) Ed
Ed.Poore wrote:
sneak a tape-recorder in to tape it which technically I shouldn't be doing as it's against school rules
Where I work it is technically against the rules to download music to your PC. The guy whose job it is to enforce those rules helpfully suggested that over the weekend I fire up the VPN from home then upload the music instead. So, if the rules say no tape recorders then go for something else. Pocket PCs tend to have a microphone built in. Some MP3 players have a microphone and record function. ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
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I'll just be over here, sitting and pondering the consultant-written library (VB.NET) that i'm *still* waiting for delivery on, three weeks since it was promised (now a week away from release, with precious little time left for testing). But hey, there are some good examples of VB programmers out there. I just never get to work with them...
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
real programmers hand code all those ones and zeros
Goodness, me, I shouldn't forget about assembly language... Paul
computerguru92382 wrote:
assembly language
Pah! Assembly language is for innumerate monkeys. :-D ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
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bakerfishsticks wrote:
Sorry but i would never outsource a project i needed asap.
It isn't my project. And to be honest, i don't much care if it gets done or not - the ones that'll suffer are the ones that hired the consultants. But i said i'd write a UI for it, and it bugs me that i took the time to do that straight away, when it's looking like it won't be used for another month or so.
bakerfishsticks wrote:
I thought this vb bashing was on versions 6 and under.
VB6 definitely suffers from a much worse development UI. But it's the programmers who gravitate towards them that bug me most, not the languages themselves.
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Xoy wrote:
I think its fine to prefer one language over others, perhaps due to what you are most comfortable with, syntax preference, etc...
I have no objection with someone wanting to use VB. I also have no problem with people who don't bathe, smoke heavily, and eat a lot of fish... ...I just don't want to work with either one of them. ;)
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Shog9 wrote:
I also have no problem with people who don't bathe
What!? Swim around in your own dirt!! :wtf: ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
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Ed.Poore wrote:
Neither of the two main IT / Computing teachers had even heard of .NET before I said I was going to use if for my project!
At least (I hope) you didn't have to (try to) explain to your teachers how oop works ;P
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bakerfishsticks wrote:
Sorry but i would never outsource a project i needed asap.
It isn't my project. And to be honest, i don't much care if it gets done or not - the ones that'll suffer are the ones that hired the consultants. But i said i'd write a UI for it, and it bugs me that i took the time to do that straight away, when it's looking like it won't be used for another month or so.
bakerfishsticks wrote:
I thought this vb bashing was on versions 6 and under.
VB6 definitely suffers from a much worse development UI. But it's the programmers who gravitate towards them that bug me most, not the languages themselves.
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Shog9 wrote:
VB6 definitely suffers from a much worse development UI. But it's the programmers who gravitate towards them that bug me most, not the languages themselves.
Actually i agree with you!! I am not a VB programmer just trying to make the point that it's a tool and a valid tool to use. I use it most with office VBA stuff, but all of my application work is in JAVA/C#. Yes most progammers that use VB should not be programming. The argument is why we bash on VB as a language, personally i have nothing against VB.
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Shog9 wrote:
I also have no problem with people who don't bathe
What!? Swim around in your own dirt!! :wtf: ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
Hey, maybe they suffer from really bad eczema or something. Who am i to judge?
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