Windows Forms designer and VC++ 2005
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Christian Graus wrote:
Sometimes I think the C++ team doesn't have the resources that the J# team has ( a room out the back, a broken kettle and a tree to use as a toilet ).
:) Why does J# even have a team? Maybe it's a sort of punishment team for misbehaving MS staff! "Bad boy! You'll serve in the J# team till next April!" Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there!Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Why does J# even have a team? Maybe it's a sort of punishment team for misbehaving MS staff! "Bad boy! You'll serve in the J# team till next April!"
The one time I answered a J# question on the MSDN boards, a member of the J# team also answered, and assured me that J# is alive and well. The other teams don't feel the need to remind people of this. I think you may be right on the money with that one. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Ryan Binns wrote:
It seems like every day or two you're reminding us how crap VS2005 is for C++ development. Enough already...
I am just frustrated that the best of the Microsoft compilers is not properly backed by their IDE :^) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there!So you've told us many, many times :)
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
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Ryan Binns wrote:
It seems like every day or two you're reminding us how crap VS2005 is for C++ development.
Now, hand on - Nish is a C++/CLI guy. He's reminding us that VS2k5 is crap for that. And not really crap, just that MS obviously didn't care if it was easy, whereas they seem to have cared a lot about C# in that regard. Which is nothing new - VC++ has a long history of tools that look and feel like they were designed and built by people who never intended to use them. But dammit - that's why we're programmers! Not so we can spend all day casting a glassy stare at the pretty boxes, hitting the opium pipe and drooling out VB code, Not so we have a vast array of tools at our fingertips, pre-written code-snippets up and out the wazoo, Intellisense filling in all but a few keystrokes in yet another limp-wristed copy/paste coding job, Not so we can stumble home at the end of a short day, knowing that our job is secure only until a real programmer writes an app - in C++ - to replace us, no - We are programmers because we like a challenge, because we *know* we're smarter than that cursed machine in front of us and we're out to prove it, because at the end of the day, any machine can string together symbols, but it takes a craftsman, an artist, a steel-eyed-axe-wielding-rule-breaking-son-of-a-bitch to really get things done. And tools that worked would just make us soft...
---- Scripts i've known... CPhog 0.9.9 - make CP better. Forum Bookmark 0.2.5 - bookmark forum posts on Pensieve Print forum 0.1.1 - printer-friendly forums
Shog9 wrote:
He's reminding us that VS2k5 is crap for that
Yeah, but we all know that already. It's kinda like reminding us that the sky is blue*. But then again, perhaps my ':rolleyes:' wasn't quite so obvious. Sorry, but it's a bit difficult to make it bold or bigger ;) * ok, so maybe not quite so obvious, but close.
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
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Anyone else ever got intellisense to work correctly? I was using VS 2005 with C# during the weekend, and was truly astonished by how good it was. Now I am using C++/CLI for a Windows Forms app, and I am again astonished - except this time it's at how pathetic it is. I don't understand why this is so :-( It's a fully managed app - no native code at all! It's almost as if the Forms Designer code has if() checks to detect if it's C++ and then behave poorly! I don't think this is the VC++ team's fault though, more likely the VS IDE team's fault! Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there!I wonder if Microsoft is intentionally trying to move people away from C++, and to C#.
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I wonder if Microsoft is intentionally trying to move people away from C++, and to C#.
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
I wonder if Microsoft is intentionally trying to move people away from C++, and to C#.
A: Yes.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Connor's Christmas Spectacular! Judah Himango
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Ryan Binns wrote:
It seems like every day or two you're reminding us how crap VS2005 is for C++ development. Enough already...
I am just frustrated that the best of the Microsoft compilers is not properly backed by their IDE :^) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there!BTW, I wasn't making malice. It was meant to be a light-hearted jab, hence the smiley :)
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
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Ryan Binns wrote:
It seems like every day or two you're reminding us how crap VS2005 is for C++ development.
Now, hand on - Nish is a C++/CLI guy. He's reminding us that VS2k5 is crap for that. And not really crap, just that MS obviously didn't care if it was easy, whereas they seem to have cared a lot about C# in that regard. Which is nothing new - VC++ has a long history of tools that look and feel like they were designed and built by people who never intended to use them. But dammit - that's why we're programmers! Not so we can spend all day casting a glassy stare at the pretty boxes, hitting the opium pipe and drooling out VB code, Not so we have a vast array of tools at our fingertips, pre-written code-snippets up and out the wazoo, Intellisense filling in all but a few keystrokes in yet another limp-wristed copy/paste coding job, Not so we can stumble home at the end of a short day, knowing that our job is secure only until a real programmer writes an app - in C++ - to replace us, no - We are programmers because we like a challenge, because we *know* we're smarter than that cursed machine in front of us and we're out to prove it, because at the end of the day, any machine can string together symbols, but it takes a craftsman, an artist, a steel-eyed-axe-wielding-rule-breaking-son-of-a-bitch to really get things done. And tools that worked would just make us soft...
---- Scripts i've known... CPhog 0.9.9 - make CP better. Forum Bookmark 0.2.5 - bookmark forum posts on Pensieve Print forum 0.1.1 - printer-friendly forums
Shog9 wrote:
We are programmers because we like a challenge, because we *know* we're smarter than that cursed machine in front of us and we're out to prove it, because at the end of the day, any machine can string together symbols, but it takes a craftsman, an artist, a steel-eyed-axe-wielding-rule-breaking-son-of-a-bitch to really get things done. And tools that worked would just make us soft...
But-but-but I like being soft cause every time I get hard I get in trouble. Hey hey, is that lounge talk? My Programming Library C#, C# Run
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Anyone else ever got intellisense to work correctly? I was using VS 2005 with C# during the weekend, and was truly astonished by how good it was. Now I am using C++/CLI for a Windows Forms app, and I am again astonished - except this time it's at how pathetic it is. I don't understand why this is so :-( It's a fully managed app - no native code at all! It's almost as if the Forms Designer code has if() checks to detect if it's C++ and then behave poorly! I don't think this is the VC++ team's fault though, more likely the VS IDE team's fault! Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there!While in beta, it seemed to me the C++ stuff was always one release behind the C# stuff. I've been hoping the service pack will rectify some of these deficiencies. I also hope Microsoft with publish more real-world C++/CLI samples. Ultimately, though, it's a question of demand. If there is large demand for C++ support, there will be justification to spend the money on adding it. If not, there won't be. It's really that simple. Right now, I don't think their will be, so I suspect you are tilting at windmills. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Anyone else ever got intellisense to work correctly? I was using VS 2005 with C# during the weekend, and was truly astonished by how good it was. Now I am using C++/CLI for a Windows Forms app, and I am again astonished - except this time it's at how pathetic it is. I don't understand why this is so :-( It's a fully managed app - no native code at all! It's almost as if the Forms Designer code has if() checks to detect if it's C++ and then behave poorly! I don't think this is the VC++ team's fault though, more likely the VS IDE team's fault! Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there!I presume you mean the lack of suggestions without pressing Ctrl+SPACE? That's what Visual Assist is for.... Anyway, I've just built two Windows Forms apps (one each in C# and C++) and with Visual Assist, the Intellisense experience was pretty much the same in both languages - my only problem was remembering to type '->', not '.' in C++....
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I guess it's likely that they decided not to focus too hard on supporting the 7-9 people using C++ to write WinForms apps. It's a question of priority... There's actually an IDE team per language, AFAIK. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Oh I think there are at least 10 VC++/CLI/WinForms masochists, and despite what you've heard we're not all insane. I managed to develop an interesting 3D application via this rather painful path - .NET 2.0 no less: http://kilroytrout.blogspot.com Take a look at the pictures, and don't even ask how long it takes to load some of my application forms in the designer. --jeff anderson
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BTW, I wasn't making malice. It was meant to be a light-hearted jab, hence the smiley :)
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
Ryan Binns wrote:
BTW, I wasn't making malice. It was meant to be a light-hearted jab, hence the smiley
I know :-) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there! -
Ryan Binns wrote:
It seems like every day or two you're reminding us how crap VS2005 is for C++ development. Enough already...
I am just frustrated that the best of the Microsoft compilers is not properly backed by their IDE :^) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there!I get the impression that most C++ developers at Microsoft use build.exe (which wraps
nmake) to build their code. This probably explains why VS2005 seems to suck with large numbers of projects in a solution - because no-one ever tried it. We don't have any very large projects, but even for those which use more than one binary that we maintain, I rarely have all the projects in the same solution. Keeping the solutions separate, and opening the projects separately, helps me keep the difference between application (mostly not reusable) and library (designed for reuse) code in mind while coding. Basically it keeps application-specific hacks out of the libraries. As long as you have PDB files you can debug into a library even if it's not in the solution, anyway. If I need to debug the interaction between multiple processes, I'll have one copy of VS open per process. I guess I'm saying I don't understand the problem that requires a solution with 83 projects in it, which I think is the maximum I've seen someone post. Using VS2005 with the limited number of projects in one solution that I do, I've found it to be faster and more stable than 2003. The only thing that seems slow to load is the (Compact Framework) Windows Forms designer. Stability. What an interesting concept. -- Chris Maunder -
Ryan Binns wrote:
BTW, I wasn't making malice. It was meant to be a light-hearted jab, hence the smiley
I know :-) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there!Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
I know
Phew! ;)
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
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I get the impression that most C++ developers at Microsoft use build.exe (which wraps
nmake) to build their code. This probably explains why VS2005 seems to suck with large numbers of projects in a solution - because no-one ever tried it. We don't have any very large projects, but even for those which use more than one binary that we maintain, I rarely have all the projects in the same solution. Keeping the solutions separate, and opening the projects separately, helps me keep the difference between application (mostly not reusable) and library (designed for reuse) code in mind while coding. Basically it keeps application-specific hacks out of the libraries. As long as you have PDB files you can debug into a library even if it's not in the solution, anyway. If I need to debug the interaction between multiple processes, I'll have one copy of VS open per process. I guess I'm saying I don't understand the problem that requires a solution with 83 projects in it, which I think is the maximum I've seen someone post. Using VS2005 with the limited number of projects in one solution that I do, I've found it to be faster and more stable than 2003. The only thing that seems slow to load is the (Compact Framework) Windows Forms designer. Stability. What an interesting concept. -- Chris Maunderthat would be me, we are now up to 87 projects in one solution, and about 84 of them are pure C++ as for how we got into this state *um* i was working under UNIX when all this happened, so when i came to it, it had already happened. the following is what i was told - in the begining there were rules about how the projects and solutions would be setup. but some of the programmers (we are a small company) did not believe the rules applied to them. this led to the interesting fact that project A (which makes a dll) is dependent on project B (which makes another dll). it is also worth knowing that B depends on A. think about that for a moment, and then consider that there are perhaps 8 low level library dll's, and that the circular dependency problem is quite a bit worse than this. the guilty parties have since left, but we still have the mess they made. fixing this is not considered to be a priority, not when there are a regular stream of "we need this yesterday" jobs to be done. private theory as to how we got into this mess - drop UNIX programmers who are used to messing around with makefiles into Visual Studio, who have no proper grounding in VS, and let them develop a method by random guesswork. so long as it compiles it is a good method. at least with all the dll's in one solution you can tell the IDE to just go and run the exe, and it makes sure to recompile all of the dll's you have been working on. *shrug* database code in one dll, core library routines in a second dll, and the application that uses both in a 3rd dll, keeping track of what has to be recompiled when i have to bounce all over the place to add new database fields is a job for the IDE. zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
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Anyone else ever got intellisense to work correctly? I was using VS 2005 with C# during the weekend, and was truly astonished by how good it was. Now I am using C++/CLI for a Windows Forms app, and I am again astonished - except this time it's at how pathetic it is. I don't understand why this is so :-( It's a fully managed app - no native code at all! It's almost as if the Forms Designer code has if() checks to detect if it's C++ and then behave poorly! I don't think this is the VC++ team's fault though, more likely the VS IDE team's fault! Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there!the youth of today! *big manic grin* in my day (about a week ago) we used a large pure C++ project (87 projects currently, about 84 of them in C++) and tried to edit it in VS2005. i *really* tried to settle into this new environment, having got used to VS2003 + Visual Assist, but in the end i gave in and accepted that it was just not to be. the day i spent 90% of my editing time noticing that my CPU was at 100% and the IDE was updating Intellisense every 1/2 hour (which took 20 minutes each time), due to me recklessly editing a whole 2 files!!! :-O (tiny ones at that) pushed me over the edge. it would not have been so bad if the machine was surviving the CPU load, but it was not *sigh* so i just gave in, killed off the IDE's Intellisense (all hail the great god read only ncb files) and went back to using Visual Assist for all of my Intellisense needs. of course then i wanted to load a tiny C++ project in VS2005 inside VMWare to test something... :wtf: i believe that Intel has sponsored the C++ VS2005 team, and that they are getting 5% of new chip sales to developers. how else to explain the insane CPU requirements? the IDE, without even telling me it was doing anything, brought both my host and guest OS's to their knee's due to a flat out CPU. i proved it was this since the good old read only ncb files cured the CPU problems. see, i bet you feel better now :-D zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness