New Images Support 'Big Bang' Theory
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Bassam, Great question. If the universe was the size of a marble, where was it located? This is where I think science falls down. The traditional Judeao Christian understanding of creation is that both time and space are part of the creation... which makes the question of what happened "before" the Big Bang... and "where" did the Big Bang take place... somewhat moot points. 100 years ago secularists were deriding believers about the idea of a instantaneous creation. It turns out that instantaneous creation was exactly the way it happened. Science studies matter situated in time and space... God, from the traditional viewpoint, stands outside of matter, time, and space... and is therefore transcendent. So the "secular" objection that science can't find God directly in space, matter, and time posses no issue for me... it would be a bigger issue if they did claim to find God. Of course Christians believe that God the Son (Jesus) did walk the earth. I believe that too... but not through science... through faith. But I do love this whole marble story... very, very cool. Chadlling
Whereas Christianity teaches that God created the world in 6 days (without Arnold's help :) ), our religion believes in the "let there be light" approach. God created the world instantaneously. That brings up a lot of "impossible to answer through science or faith" questions like how or when did it happen. But since we're all here arguing about it, something did happen. Most atheists have a hard time accepting God and religion unfortunately pushes itself rather than God. Religion only explains God in its way and that's why a large majority of people are atheists. God is not defined to be an old man with a beard. God is just the reason for our existance. God could be a being, the universe (Big Bang) or even we could be living things in God. Any way you wish to explain it is equally plausible. We'll never know for sure. But to say there is no God when you accept the Big Bang blindly is self-denial. "If only one person knows the truth, it is still the truth." - Mahatma Gandhi Web - Blog - RSS - Math
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Drew Stainton wrote:
Kind of cracks me up.
yup. unfortunately for cosmology and biology, there are centuries of religious/faith-based stories to overcome. luckily, the bible didn't try to teach mathematics or chemistry - we'd never get anywhere. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
Chris Losinger wrote:
luckily, the bible didn't try to teach mathematics
It did. The bible claimed the ratio of the circumferance to the diameter was roughly three. Good estimate by the standards then, but bad for the "son of God". All they did was roll a wheel and see how many diameters it covered. "If only one person knows the truth, it is still the truth." - Mahatma Gandhi Web - Blog - RSS - Math
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I'm pretty sure that you know what I meant and no, of course I can't but I find it somewhat more interesting and believable than an invisible being ruling our lives and at least they're making an attempt to understand existence without need to resort to an omnipotent being that conveniently negates the need to examine much of anything you don't really understand and whilst you may snort at their attempts to interpret the signals at least they are trying. I have absolute faith in myself. www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.comdigital man wrote:
at least they're making an attempt to understand existence without need to resort to an omnipotent being that conveniently negates the need to examine much of anything you don't really understand and whilst you may snort at their attempts to interpret the signals at least they are trying.
You may find it interesting that most men of science believe in God and believe it was put here for us to discover and explore. Even Albert Einstein said : "The more I examine the universe, the more I believe it was put here for us to discover." (Or something like that).
digital man wrote:
I have absolute faith in myself.
Then you are your own god and you have your own religion: the religion of self.
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I think it might be possible, but I'm not optimistic. We're certainly capable of understanding nature beyond our direct observations, but it gets awfully weird. There is also no way to verify any of it.
If we do ever create an artificial black hole, we might be able to reproduce a mini-Big Bang or a Little Bang. That could be enough to explain creation. Or we could inadvertantly sink this universe into it and start the cycle for a whole new universe where some CPians are asking how it is or isn't possible. :) "If only one person knows the truth, it is still the truth." - Mahatma Gandhi Web - Blog - RSS - Math
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Which came first - the turtle or the egg?
The egg of course, but it was not a turtle that laid the egg. The layer of the egg was one evolutionary step away from a turtle. ColinMackay.net Scottish Developers are looking for speakers for user group sessions over the next few months. Do you want to know more?
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espeir wrote:
Uh...It still is published...It's the most published book in history.
I think you know what I meant. Besides, is it really? I thought that there are books that have outsold specific versions of the bible?
espeir wrote:
Besides, there are plenty of other historical accounts that back up the story of Jesus. Ask any reputable history professor. He might not agree that Jesus performed miracles or rose from the dead, but the history is completely consistent with all other historical contexts.
Not the point: the others are not talking about a historical figure: they're talking about a man they allege was the son of an entity and who dies and then, well, lived again. Different entirely. www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.comdigital man wrote:
I thought that there are books that have outsold specific versions of the bible?
Nope. http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/content_pages/record.asp?recordid=48276[^]
digital man wrote:
Not the point: the others are not talking about a historical figure: they're talking about a man they allege was the son of an entity and who dies and then, well, lived again. Different entirely.
We're talking about both. Jesus as a historical figure is not really something a reasonable person would debate. Whether or not he was the Son of God may be a matter of faith, but the New Testament is a history book gathered from eye witness accounts. You're free to discount the validity of those accounts, but historians typically view first-hand accounts as...well...gospel.
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And I don't see how you can say it's proof of creation. And why can't it have happened by chance? www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.comdigital man wrote:
And why can't it have happened by chance?
Evolutionists are always asking creationists for proof that God created the universe, but i think that is a double standard, considering that there is not any evidence that the universe happened by chance.
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And I don't see how you can say it's proof of creation. And why can't it have happened by chance? www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.comLet me ask you this. If time did not exist before the universe did (as is how the theory goes), then how could time progress forward to create an instant at which time the big bang occurred?
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Chris Losinger wrote:
luckily, the bible didn't try to teach mathematics
It did. The bible claimed the ratio of the circumferance to the diameter was roughly three. Good estimate by the standards then, but bad for the "son of God". All they did was roll a wheel and see how many diameters it covered. "If only one person knows the truth, it is still the truth." - Mahatma Gandhi Web - Blog - RSS - Math
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
The bible claimed the ratio of the circumferance to the diameter was roughly three
huh? where?
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If we do ever create an artificial black hole, we might be able to reproduce a mini-Big Bang or a Little Bang. That could be enough to explain creation. Or we could inadvertantly sink this universe into it and start the cycle for a whole new universe where some CPians are asking how it is or isn't possible. :) "If only one person knows the truth, it is still the truth." - Mahatma Gandhi Web - Blog - RSS - Math
The pre-big bang universe was not necessarily a black hole. Nor did it necessarily have any properties similar at all to a black hole.
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Troposphere wrote:
Spirituality is actually one of the highest functions of the human mind.
Says you. www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.comTo expound a little on digital man's response, what evidence do you have that "sprituality" (or more aptly, mysticism) is "actually one of the highest functions of the human mind?" What are the other functions of the human mind and how do they rate? Is this based on your neurological research, or is this just a fluffy meaningless statement of your opinion? Matt Gerrans
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Whereas Christianity teaches that God created the world in 6 days (without Arnold's help :) ), our religion believes in the "let there be light" approach. God created the world instantaneously. That brings up a lot of "impossible to answer through science or faith" questions like how or when did it happen. But since we're all here arguing about it, something did happen. Most atheists have a hard time accepting God and religion unfortunately pushes itself rather than God. Religion only explains God in its way and that's why a large majority of people are atheists. God is not defined to be an old man with a beard. God is just the reason for our existance. God could be a being, the universe (Big Bang) or even we could be living things in God. Any way you wish to explain it is equally plausible. We'll never know for sure. But to say there is no God when you accept the Big Bang blindly is self-denial. "If only one person knows the truth, it is still the truth." - Mahatma Gandhi Web - Blog - RSS - Math
Pursuing the big bang theory is a futile attempt. I think the universe was never meant to be understood. Maybe the universe represents all that cannot be explained - the ultimate truth. No matter how many books or articles I read on this subject, it all sounds like a fantasy tale which always ends with "well we could be completely wrong here"
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Using your logic, I can't go into a library and find various books that support an idea, because they are in the same place. The Bible is a compilation of numerous books; the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Acts all support that Jesus rose from the dead. Five seperate accounts, bound together into a single volume.
Which Bible do you mean? Have you read it? All of it? Did you kill your goat today and sprinkle blood on both sides of the altar? Did you correctly remove the entrails before burning its head on the altar? No? Better go read up so you can get things right. Matt Gerrans
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I didn't vote you down, but weren't those galaxies?
Yes.
Found on Bash.org [erno] hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is.
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The pre-big bang universe was not necessarily a black hole. Nor did it necessarily have any properties similar at all to a black hole.
espeir wrote:
The pre-big bang universe was not necessarily a black hole.
Actually no one knows for sure if there really was a big bang - leave alone what was present in a pre-big bang universe. To know for sure if there was indeed a big bang would be the same as answering all the unknowns in our universe.
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Chris Losinger wrote:
only faith gets you from a story about a zombie to "Proof of God's existence"
And only with faith can you believe that the universe came into existence by chance.
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
And only with faith can you believe that the universe came into existence by chance.
true. that's part of why i don't believe chance had anything to do with it. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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To expound a little on digital man's response, what evidence do you have that "sprituality" (or more aptly, mysticism) is "actually one of the highest functions of the human mind?" What are the other functions of the human mind and how do they rate? Is this based on your neurological research, or is this just a fluffy meaningless statement of your opinion? Matt Gerrans
mysticism != sprituality. The former implies union with God while the latter implies awareness of Him. For starters sprituality is uniquely human. No animal has that ability (or the innate desire) to understand divinity. While most of our other thought processes are shared with one or more of our brothers in the animal kingdom, the fact that we alone have this quircky nature shows that it is a uniquely higher function.
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Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
And only with faith can you believe that the universe came into existence by chance.
true. that's part of why i don't believe chance had anything to do with it. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
Then is your explanation simply a refusal of all other proposed explanations?
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What kind of proof are you looking for? An early follower of Jesus put it this way: the evidence of God is all around us; we don't need a miraculous, supernatural "God was here!" kind of event to prove him, do we? Is that what you're looking for? If it is, you might be disappointed, because you are not the first to ask for such proof of God:
Later a few scholars and teachers got on him. "Teacher, we want to see your credentials. Give us some hard evidence that God is in this. How about a miracle?" Jesus said, "You're looking for proof, but you're looking for the wrong kind. All you want is something to titillate your curiosity, satisfy your lust for miracles. Because of this, the only proof you're going to get is what looks like the absence of proof.
What I am convinced of is that people who are looking for this kind of proof are out to disprove the existence of God. They aren't really looking for miracles, they're just out to disprove God's existence by the absence of miracles. If that is you, then there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise; in fact, Jesus performed miracles himself witnessed by not only his followers, but also by people who were out to disprove his existence such as secular historians and the Judaic scribes, both groups of people saw the miracles, yet refused to believe anyways because they already had their made up their minds, there was no convincing them. I am convinced that if you do not have an open mind to God--if you are only out there to disprove his existence--then even miracles will not convince you, as it did not convince people with closed minds and hard hearts in the past. You've got to have an open mind to the existence of God before you will find proof either way.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Moral Muscle The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Here's a question for the creationists. Let's say we hypothetically accept the "intelligent design" argument that if something is intricate, it must have been designed by an intelligent being (automobiles didn't evolve and all that). So, humans (animals, et al) are complicated and therefore must have been designed by an even more complicated being (God, Allah, etc.). Hmm... I guess we cannot simply abandon our model now, so naturally, that entity must have been designed and created by an even more complex being, who must have been created by an even more complex being, who... Do you see the flaw? Or do you just shout "rutabega!" now? We need to explain the existence of the universe with the construction of God, but don't need to explain the existence of God? If so, why even bother trying to explain the existence of the universe, or anything else, if you are eventually are going to get to the end of the line and punt? Matt Gerrans
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What happens when you keep adjusting your path to keep going straight. For example, two people start out in opposite directions and reach the same point, they then restart moving closer down the road and end up at the same initial position. However, what happens if they repeat this an infinite number of times each time moving closer and closer? :) "If only one person knows the truth, it is still the truth." - Mahatma Gandhi Web - Blog - RSS - Math
Bassam, My original analogy was a bit incomplete. Going around the universe is *kinda* like walking over the surface of the earth, with one crucial difference: You can actually travel around the earth, but traveling around the universe to end up where you started requires that you travel faster than light - which is not practically possible. I don't remember or even know why, though - I read it in Hawking's A Brief History of Time. I'm only very interested in the stuff, not a scientist. Perhaps you could ask John Theal. :) Cheers, Vikram.
I don't know and you don't either. Militant Agnostic