The software programmers profession
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Have you seen how much money people squeeze out of their professions? ... Compare that to ours and I will say we get an F grade in that category... For the amount of time we spend on learning new(er) technologies all the time and then using our creative thinking EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of the day I think an average programmer's salary should be at least $150K - $175K ... If you think that is more then compare it with other professions ... are lawyers worth the $150K+ they usually make ... most lawyers printout the facts and read that in court confidently ... which the defendent himself would be able to do except that he isn't in the right state of mind at that moment. The lawyer has taken advantage of the defendent. Similarly Marketing and Sales professionals are also creative thinking people who make a ton of money compared to our measealey salaries (again this is compared to our efforts) Think for a couple minutes and you will find more of such professions... The worst comes when (software) Project Managers and alike do all the paperwork (well...they call it "Project Planning") and other secretary level tasks and get paid double of what the real programmers working "under" him gets paid. Technology/Engineering is a profession that thrives on invention and creativity ... anyone who works hard in such demanding profession should be paid extremely well ... maybe lesser than the "real" Doctors but close.
$150K+ they usually make ... Where did you get that figure?
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Drew Stainton wrote:
Become an expert in a field
The best farmers are all outstanding in their fields. ;P Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] When I want privacy, I'll close the bathroom door. [Stan Shannon] GOOD DAY FOR: Moonlighting, as porn star Savanna Samson has launched her own wine label. Her Sogno Uno, an Italian red, received an "outstanding" 90 to 91 score from influential wine critic Robert Parker. "I wanted to do something my parents could be proud of," she said. (Reuters in CNNMoney.com)
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Have you seen how much money people squeeze out of their professions? ... Compare that to ours and I will say we get an F grade in that category... For the amount of time we spend on learning new(er) technologies all the time and then using our creative thinking EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of the day I think an average programmer's salary should be at least $150K - $175K ... If you think that is more then compare it with other professions ... are lawyers worth the $150K+ they usually make ... most lawyers printout the facts and read that in court confidently ... which the defendent himself would be able to do except that he isn't in the right state of mind at that moment. The lawyer has taken advantage of the defendent. Similarly Marketing and Sales professionals are also creative thinking people who make a ton of money compared to our measealey salaries (again this is compared to our efforts) Think for a couple minutes and you will find more of such professions... The worst comes when (software) Project Managers and alike do all the paperwork (well...they call it "Project Planning") and other secretary level tasks and get paid double of what the real programmers working "under" him gets paid. Technology/Engineering is a profession that thrives on invention and creativity ... anyone who works hard in such demanding profession should be paid extremely well ... maybe lesser than the "real" Doctors but close.
You might want to consider contracting. $150k is only $75 an hour, not exactly a sky high rate. Christopher Duncan Practical Strategy Consulting Author of The Career Programmer Unite the Tribes
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they should get whatever the person who hired them decided they should get. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
Chris Losinger wrote:
they should get whatever the person who hired them decided they should get.
Totally wrong ... who are they to decide your worth? Only you can put a price on your worth ... think about it. Of course all this should be ironed out before accepting the job offer.
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Not enough information. How much were selling costs? How much was the operations overhead minus pay (rent, utilities, etc...)? What equity positions did the developers have (if any) in the company? Who invested the money into the project and assumed the risk of that investment? What was the job market like for people in this field? It's not as simple as $1 million / 8.
espeir wrote:
Not enough information. How much were selling costs? How much was the operations overhead minus pay (rent, utilities, etc...)? What equity positions did the developers have (if any) in the company? Who invested the money into the project and assumed the risk of that investment? What was the job market like for people in this field? It's not as simple as $1 million / 8.
While I agree that it isn't that simple I don't see why you would need to know this: Who invested the money into the project and assumed the risk of that investment? All I am asking is a percentage ... if PM gets x% and the average developer gets y% then you tell me how much x and y should be?
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Lawyers don't make $150k on average. link[^] $150k might be average for attorneys with many years of experience, but the above is the average pay for a level III (out of IV) patent attorney, (~$122,000). That's a lawyer with 5-8 years experience on top of their JD degree and professional certification. But I think we can all agree that lawyers are overpayed.
ok 122K isn't that less either :)
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Partly I think it is because it is still an immature industry and yet to become fully professionalised. Right now many developers are passionate about what they do. There aren't quite the hordes of programmers just doing it as a job like there are lawyers, doctors, accountants etc. Saying that there are plenty of doctors, lawyers, designers and accountants even (go figure) who are passionate about what they do and work outside of official hours. Lawyers read up on past cases for interest, doctors investigate new developments, designers work on their creative, personal projects and accountants... well I don't know what they do but I reckon there are a few. Oh and marketers and advertisers go out and get sozzled with clients after-hours. This will all change though. Development will become professionalised. We haven't even had a generation growing up with development as a real career choice. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Feed Henry!
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
I agree ... either we need to abolish formal computer science education or we need to make that a requirement like other engineering degrees ... boatloads of hackers sitting in their garages are never going to let this profession mature.
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Pete Madden wrote:
...I think an average programmer's salary should be at least $150K - $175K ...
For an average programmer? That implies that programmers with a few years experience would net close to $200k per year. What company could afford that? How much would they have to inflate the cost of their goods to cover such salaries? Salary, and the cost of goods sold, has always been a vicious cycle ever since it started. One of these days, greed will cause the cycle to end, however.
"Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed." - Mark Twain
"There is no death, only a change of worlds." - Native American Proverb
David, Lets say a customer wants to pay taxes ... he has two choices ... go to HR block and get it done paying more or go online at Hrblock.com and get it done for $20(approx) bucks ... now why is that? When the online program has been written to replace a person should that have the same "value"? ... I think the customer needs to be charged the same amount either ways ...
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Doctors have highly specialized skills meriting higher pay. Lawyers have personalities employing debating/sales skills which help them justify higher prices. Sales and marketing are going to sell and market themselves for higher profit. Many programming projects can get by without guru coders or project leads running them. They may take a bit longer or cost a little more, but that's OK. In surgery or during trial, you get one chance and you'd better have someone good working for you. So demand for top quality isn't really there, and additionally programmers are usually in it for the big bucks. If they are comfortable, they're happy. BW
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
-- Steven WrightTrue, many projects can get by without master coders but its also true that many patients can get by with only prescriptions and no surgeries, many defendents can win cases with mediocre lawyers but does that in any way reduce the salaries of lawyers/doctors? NO ... then why should it for programmers?
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espeir wrote:
Not enough information. How much were selling costs? How much was the operations overhead minus pay (rent, utilities, etc...)? What equity positions did the developers have (if any) in the company? Who invested the money into the project and assumed the risk of that investment? What was the job market like for people in this field? It's not as simple as $1 million / 8.
While I agree that it isn't that simple I don't see why you would need to know this: Who invested the money into the project and assumed the risk of that investment? All I am asking is a percentage ... if PM gets x% and the average developer gets y% then you tell me how much x and y should be?
Pete Madden wrote:
While I agree that it isn't that simple I don't see why you would need to know this: Who invested the money into the project and assumed the risk of that investment?
Because the investor takes a risk and does it for a percentage, while you were probably hired on an employment contract, just like me and most of the others here. The investor had to work hard to come up with the idea and to prepare everything for the start of production, the employees only do their share for part of the time. The investor can lose everything while you might need to search for another cosy, no heavy lifting involved, 9 to 5 job. Who would take any risks if there would be no possibility of gain into it? The bottom line is: the profit margin is usually a lot less than you think and you were hired for a salary anyway. If you manage to make some very wealthy investor believe differently please let me know where to send my CV. OGR
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Chris Losinger wrote:
they should get whatever the person who hired them decided they should get.
Totally wrong ... who are they to decide your worth? Only you can put a price on your worth ... think about it. Of course all this should be ironed out before accepting the job offer.
Pete Madden wrote:
who are they to decide your worth?
i never said anything about "your worth". you asked what the programmers should get v what the PMs should get. the only answer is: whatever the boss can afford to pay the people to do the job he needs done. any talk of "worth" is irrelevant outside the context of what you can actually get.
Pete Madden wrote:
Of course all this should be ironed out before accepting the job offer.
yes, of course. and common sense demands that, throughout the entire thread, we are not talking about a pre-employment situation - or are your "5 programmers" above hypothetical ? Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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Pete Madden wrote:
Technology/Engineering is a profession that thrives on invention and creativity ... anyone who works hard in such demanding profession should be paid extremely well .
And I *should* be extremly tall, strong, handsome, and a talented musician as well ;P Sorry, no "shoulds" in real world.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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Drew Stainton wrote:
Become an expert in a field
The best farmers are all outstanding in their fields. ;P Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] When I want privacy, I'll close the bathroom door. [Stan Shannon] GOOD DAY FOR: Moonlighting, as porn star Savanna Samson has launched her own wine label. Her Sogno Uno, an Italian red, received an "outstanding" 90 to 91 score from influential wine critic Robert Parker. "I wanted to do something my parents could be proud of," she said. (Reuters in CNNMoney.com)
That one was old when Isaac Newton was sitting around getting konked on the head with an apple :rolleyes:.
Software Zen:
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Paul Watson wrote:
We haven't even had a generation growing up with development as a real career choice.
As young as I am, 52, I was never exposed to programming in high school, but in my second year out of high school, 1973, I took my very first computer programming course at a community college. There were also private institutions to attend if you wanted a career in computer operations/programming as it existed back then. And I know people who chose that path back then. Has development come to replace fireman or policeman as what children want to grow up to be. No that hasn't happened and I don't think it will either. But I would say that at least a generation and possibly two have been exposed to the real career opportunities that development offers. :) Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] When I want privacy, I'll close the bathroom door. [Stan Shannon] GOOD DAY FOR: Moonlighting, as porn star Savanna Samson has launched her own wine label. Her Sogno Uno, an Italian red, received an "outstanding" 90 to 91 score from influential wine critic Robert Parker. "I wanted to do something my parents could be proud of," she said. (Reuters in CNNMoney.com)
In 1973 and up until the early nineties I would say it was still a niche choice. Programming as a career had not permeated the market like other professions. I was born in 1979 and only got introduced to computers at the age of 13 and then only decided it would be my career at the age of 18. My dad is a programmer but he started as a logistics manager, only later in his life did the opportunity to become a programmer open up. Only kids of 14/16 today have grown up with a computer throughout their lives. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Feed Henry!
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
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David, Lets say a customer wants to pay taxes ... he has two choices ... go to HR block and get it done paying more or go online at Hrblock.com and get it done for $20(approx) bucks ... now why is that? When the online program has been written to replace a person should that have the same "value"? ... I think the customer needs to be charged the same amount either ways ...
Pete Madden wrote:
...now why is that?
No overhead (e.g., salary, rent, insurance) is involved.
"Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed." - Mark Twain
"There is no death, only a change of worlds." - Native American Proverb