VS 2005 just rocks my world
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I've been doing C++ and Java for years now, but I recently got a new position writing a new Windows application from scratch, with no legacy code required. So I got my hands on VS2005, and man, I'm totally impressed, especially with C++/CLI. We have a pretty good 3D scene graph library, which is all C based, and being able to use that directly from a mixed mode C++ assembly, and then use that in a c# application, AND debug across language and MSIL/asm boundaries, well, it just blows me away. :cool: It is such a breath of fresh air compared to doing C++ and Java development. Having to use two sometimes three debuggers at once, and using JNI to brdige the Java / C gap, this is like a handful of minty Tic Tacs first thing in the morning. Also having used Delphi/C++ Builder in the past, this is the first Visual Studio that stats making as much sense as they did. Despite a fairly constant stream of well founded criticism about the IDE, just wanted point out it does some very amazing things. And a big heartfelt thanks to all the CPians, especially Nish for the C++/CLI articles. - Phil
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I've been doing C++ and Java for years now, but I recently got a new position writing a new Windows application from scratch, with no legacy code required. So I got my hands on VS2005, and man, I'm totally impressed, especially with C++/CLI. We have a pretty good 3D scene graph library, which is all C based, and being able to use that directly from a mixed mode C++ assembly, and then use that in a c# application, AND debug across language and MSIL/asm boundaries, well, it just blows me away. :cool: It is such a breath of fresh air compared to doing C++ and Java development. Having to use two sometimes three debuggers at once, and using JNI to brdige the Java / C gap, this is like a handful of minty Tic Tacs first thing in the morning. Also having used Delphi/C++ Builder in the past, this is the first Visual Studio that stats making as much sense as they did. Despite a fairly constant stream of well founded criticism about the IDE, just wanted point out it does some very amazing things. And a big heartfelt thanks to all the CPians, especially Nish for the C++/CLI articles. - Phil
no doubt ... that is MS's speciality. I never really understood the concept of people feeling great about themselves coding in Notepad and those other minimal featured editors. To me what's important is the analysis, design ... coz I can then teach my mother to do the rest of the coding.
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I've been doing C++ and Java for years now, but I recently got a new position writing a new Windows application from scratch, with no legacy code required. So I got my hands on VS2005, and man, I'm totally impressed, especially with C++/CLI. We have a pretty good 3D scene graph library, which is all C based, and being able to use that directly from a mixed mode C++ assembly, and then use that in a c# application, AND debug across language and MSIL/asm boundaries, well, it just blows me away. :cool: It is such a breath of fresh air compared to doing C++ and Java development. Having to use two sometimes three debuggers at once, and using JNI to brdige the Java / C gap, this is like a handful of minty Tic Tacs first thing in the morning. Also having used Delphi/C++ Builder in the past, this is the first Visual Studio that stats making as much sense as they did. Despite a fairly constant stream of well founded criticism about the IDE, just wanted point out it does some very amazing things. And a big heartfelt thanks to all the CPians, especially Nish for the C++/CLI articles. - Phil
pmartin wrote:
It is such a breath of fresh air compared to doing C++ and Java development.
For a contracting gig I've been doing, I inherited a large Java & C++ project that we've ported to the .NET framework. I was so happy about VS2005 I posted here saying how wonderfully simple it was to do a cross language, mixed native and managed solution, I was bursting with joy seeing the resulting code. It was so much cleaner than the fugly JNI interop junk, and the it worked flawlessly debugging a combination J#, C++/CLI, and C# solution. :cool: Kudos to the VS team for that. That said, the purely native development I've found to be really poor. I tried porting some VC6 projects to 2005 and VS would crash after a couple changes while updating Intellisense. It would also crash upon loading the solution, meaning I was basically locked out of the thing. Real pain. Also, I've found the native Intellisense to be very sluggish, especially compared to managed Intellisense. Compile times are also far slower. Generally, compared to the C# IDE, the C++ IDE just isn't quite as good. Throw in the built-in refactoring tools for C# to top things off. :-p The C++ IDE definitely has room for improvement.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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I've been doing C++ and Java for years now, but I recently got a new position writing a new Windows application from scratch, with no legacy code required. So I got my hands on VS2005, and man, I'm totally impressed, especially with C++/CLI. We have a pretty good 3D scene graph library, which is all C based, and being able to use that directly from a mixed mode C++ assembly, and then use that in a c# application, AND debug across language and MSIL/asm boundaries, well, it just blows me away. :cool: It is such a breath of fresh air compared to doing C++ and Java development. Having to use two sometimes three debuggers at once, and using JNI to brdige the Java / C gap, this is like a handful of minty Tic Tacs first thing in the morning. Also having used Delphi/C++ Builder in the past, this is the first Visual Studio that stats making as much sense as they did. Despite a fairly constant stream of well founded criticism about the IDE, just wanted point out it does some very amazing things. And a big heartfelt thanks to all the CPians, especially Nish for the C++/CLI articles. - Phil
VS2005 is the best IDE I am aware of. However, I must say they blew some things when it comes to C++ development: 1) Link time - cl used to be one of the fastest compilers around; now it is almost as slow as gcc 2) Updating Intellisense X| 3) The C++ Standard Library seems to be getting slower and slower with every new release of VS. In return, they offered us "safe" version of many standard functions that are not safe at all, but are nonstandard and nonportable. 4) Can't they make a good editor already? I am still trying to convince my boss to buy me ViEmu[^] Having said all that, whenever I have a chance to work with VS2005 after long weeks of development under Linux it feels damn good.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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pmartin wrote:
It is such a breath of fresh air compared to doing C++ and Java development.
For a contracting gig I've been doing, I inherited a large Java & C++ project that we've ported to the .NET framework. I was so happy about VS2005 I posted here saying how wonderfully simple it was to do a cross language, mixed native and managed solution, I was bursting with joy seeing the resulting code. It was so much cleaner than the fugly JNI interop junk, and the it worked flawlessly debugging a combination J#, C++/CLI, and C# solution. :cool: Kudos to the VS team for that. That said, the purely native development I've found to be really poor. I tried porting some VC6 projects to 2005 and VS would crash after a couple changes while updating Intellisense. It would also crash upon loading the solution, meaning I was basically locked out of the thing. Real pain. Also, I've found the native Intellisense to be very sluggish, especially compared to managed Intellisense. Compile times are also far slower. Generally, compared to the C# IDE, the C++ IDE just isn't quite as good. Throw in the built-in refactoring tools for C# to top things off. :-p The C++ IDE definitely has room for improvement.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Yup! Me thinks the service pack will be a version pack, feature pack, bug pack, fubar pack, save face pack, etc pack, etc... Aye! Some things are great and all the rest is just a bit X| and :zzz: with to much :wtf: which leaves me saying, ":omg: when is that service pack again?". All in all I give it a smiley score of :|.
The enemy's gate is down. :cool: Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog[^] now. People who don't understand how awesome Firefox is have never used CPhog. The act of using CPhog alone doesn't make Firefox cool. It opens your eyes to the possibilities and then you start looking for other things like CPhog and your eyes are suddenly open to all sorts of useful things all through Firefox. - (Self Quote)
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Yup! Me thinks the service pack will be a version pack, feature pack, bug pack, fubar pack, save face pack, etc pack, etc... Aye! Some things are great and all the rest is just a bit X| and :zzz: with to much :wtf: which leaves me saying, ":omg: when is that service pack again?". All in all I give it a smiley score of :|.
The enemy's gate is down. :cool: Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog[^] now. People who don't understand how awesome Firefox is have never used CPhog. The act of using CPhog alone doesn't make Firefox cool. It opens your eyes to the possibilities and then you start looking for other things like CPhog and your eyes are suddenly open to all sorts of useful things all through Firefox. - (Self Quote)
Since most of what I do is managed code, I'd give it a :cool: If I was doing native code all the time, I'd be far less impressed.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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no doubt ... that is MS's speciality. I never really understood the concept of people feeling great about themselves coding in Notepad and those other minimal featured editors. To me what's important is the analysis, design ... coz I can then teach my mother to do the rest of the coding.
Pete Madden wrote:
I never really understood the concept of people feeling great about themselves coding in Notepad
Ditto. I was talking to an IBM guy who said he did almost all his C coding in notepad, and I chuckled. When I realized he was serious, I was all :wtf:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Since most of what I do is managed code, I'd give it a :cool: If I was doing native code all the time, I'd be far less impressed.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
In doing so do you think that you are giving them a break they don't deserve? Don't you think the entire product should work?
The enemy's gate is down. :cool: Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog[^] now. People who don't understand how awesome Firefox is have never used CPhog. The act of using CPhog alone doesn't make Firefox cool. It opens your eyes to the possibilities and then you start looking for other things like CPhog and your eyes are suddenly open to all sorts of useful things all through Firefox. - (Self Quote)
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In doing so do you think that you are giving them a break they don't deserve? Don't you think the entire product should work?
The enemy's gate is down. :cool: Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog[^] now. People who don't understand how awesome Firefox is have never used CPhog. The act of using CPhog alone doesn't make Firefox cool. It opens your eyes to the possibilities and then you start looking for other things like CPhog and your eyes are suddenly open to all sorts of useful things all through Firefox. - (Self Quote)
I think I've rated it fairly. Managed development is great, multi-language solution debugging works excellently. Native development sucks. For myself, I give it a :cool: just because most of my development is managed. For native developers, it won't be so good. I think that's a fair judgement.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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I've been doing C++ and Java for years now, but I recently got a new position writing a new Windows application from scratch, with no legacy code required. So I got my hands on VS2005, and man, I'm totally impressed, especially with C++/CLI. We have a pretty good 3D scene graph library, which is all C based, and being able to use that directly from a mixed mode C++ assembly, and then use that in a c# application, AND debug across language and MSIL/asm boundaries, well, it just blows me away. :cool: It is such a breath of fresh air compared to doing C++ and Java development. Having to use two sometimes three debuggers at once, and using JNI to brdige the Java / C gap, this is like a handful of minty Tic Tacs first thing in the morning. Also having used Delphi/C++ Builder in the past, this is the first Visual Studio that stats making as much sense as they did. Despite a fairly constant stream of well founded criticism about the IDE, just wanted point out it does some very amazing things. And a big heartfelt thanks to all the CPians, especially Nish for the C++/CLI articles. - Phil
pmartin wrote:
So I got my hands on VS2005, and man, I'm totally impressed...It is such a breath of fresh air compared to doing C++ and Java development.
I felt the same when I first started using it. For me, the installation was smoother and the .Net 2.0 library was icing on the cake. But now! I have been feeling the same way, recently, about using Wing IDE[^] is a powerful Python IDE. Very :cool:, such a step up from anyother Python IDE's I have looked at and it has an MS VS feel to it. Later, JoeSox "Football is a game of cliches, and I believe in every one of them." -Vincent Lombardi CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Last.fm
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I think I've rated it fairly. Managed development is great, multi-language solution debugging works excellently. Native development sucks. For myself, I give it a :cool: just because most of my development is managed. For native developers, it won't be so good. I think that's a fair judgement.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Fair enough. Obviously, that's how Microsoft felt as well.:-D
The enemy's gate is down. :cool: Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog[^] now. People who don't understand how awesome Firefox is have never used CPhog. The act of using CPhog alone doesn't make Firefox cool. It opens your eyes to the possibilities and then you start looking for other things like CPhog and your eyes are suddenly open to all sorts of useful things all through Firefox. - (Self Quote)
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I've been doing C++ and Java for years now, but I recently got a new position writing a new Windows application from scratch, with no legacy code required. So I got my hands on VS2005, and man, I'm totally impressed, especially with C++/CLI. We have a pretty good 3D scene graph library, which is all C based, and being able to use that directly from a mixed mode C++ assembly, and then use that in a c# application, AND debug across language and MSIL/asm boundaries, well, it just blows me away. :cool: It is such a breath of fresh air compared to doing C++ and Java development. Having to use two sometimes three debuggers at once, and using JNI to brdige the Java / C gap, this is like a handful of minty Tic Tacs first thing in the morning. Also having used Delphi/C++ Builder in the past, this is the first Visual Studio that stats making as much sense as they did. Despite a fairly constant stream of well founded criticism about the IDE, just wanted point out it does some very amazing things. And a big heartfelt thanks to all the CPians, especially Nish for the C++/CLI articles. - Phil
Yes VS2005 is pretty neat. I love it. Project4Hire.com - Find Freelance Progammers and Graphic Designers for all your project needs
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pmartin wrote:
So I got my hands on VS2005, and man, I'm totally impressed...It is such a breath of fresh air compared to doing C++ and Java development.
I felt the same when I first started using it. For me, the installation was smoother and the .Net 2.0 library was icing on the cake. But now! I have been feeling the same way, recently, about using Wing IDE[^] is a powerful Python IDE. Very :cool:, such a step up from anyother Python IDE's I have looked at and it has an MS VS feel to it. Later, JoeSox "Football is a game of cliches, and I believe in every one of them." -Vincent Lombardi CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Last.fm
For some reason the python syntax just makes my eyes hurt. No idea why, it so odd. I think I've been brainwashed to think anything except c++ is bad :D. Have you tried out IronPython at all?
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VS2005 is the best IDE I am aware of. However, I must say they blew some things when it comes to C++ development: 1) Link time - cl used to be one of the fastest compilers around; now it is almost as slow as gcc 2) Updating Intellisense X| 3) The C++ Standard Library seems to be getting slower and slower with every new release of VS. In return, they offered us "safe" version of many standard functions that are not safe at all, but are nonstandard and nonportable. 4) Can't they make a good editor already? I am still trying to convince my boss to buy me ViEmu[^] Having said all that, whenever I have a chance to work with VS2005 after long weeks of development under Linux it feels damn good.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
- Link time - cl used to be one of the fastest compilers around; now it is almost as slow as gcc
That is bad news. We've been suffering from poor link times since we jumped from VC6 to VC2003, but if it has gotten worse again, that would be bad news inded. Our major link slow downs are caused by a very large library that contains umpteen bazillion references to STL code.
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
- The C++ Standard Library seems to be getting slower and slower with every new release of VS. In return, they offered us "safe" version of many standard functions that are not safe at all, but are nonstandard and nonportable.
That is bad news indeed. The STL jumped a significant amount in quality from VC6 to 2003, but if they've gone down hill again, that would not be good at all. Oh, it just clicked, are you referring to the C run time (as opposed to the C++ Standard Library) ? deprecating sprintf and strcat et al?
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
- Can't they make a good editor already? I am still trying to convince my boss to buy me ViEmu[^]
There is no way Vi counts as a good editor. No. Way. Ever. In a million years. Even if I were wearing a tutu. And a hat. With bells on. ;P I do wish they would improve the editor though. Something I've wanted for so long, is for the code comments to be presented in a rich text format. Instead of xml or doxygen tags, I want to see the end results, with links and all, and be able to include diagrams whereever I want. BEtter refactoring I also want. I've been spoilt with Eclipse's refactoring (and Jetbrains offering is far better so I hear) so I want the same for C#. Jetbrains has a C# refactorizer that has most of the things I'd like, so hopefully I'll be able to look at that. - Phil
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Pete Madden wrote:
I never really understood the concept of people feeling great about themselves coding in Notepad
Ditto. I was talking to an IBM guy who said he did almost all his C coding in notepad, and I chuckled. When I realized he was serious, I was all :wtf:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
I was talking to an IBM guy who said he did almost all his C coding in notepad, and I chuckled.
If he's going to do that he should at least use a programmer's text editor, such as TextPad or UltraEdit or equivalent for non-Windows platforms. Notepad is shite for writing code. Kevin
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pmartin wrote:
It is such a breath of fresh air compared to doing C++ and Java development.
For a contracting gig I've been doing, I inherited a large Java & C++ project that we've ported to the .NET framework. I was so happy about VS2005 I posted here saying how wonderfully simple it was to do a cross language, mixed native and managed solution, I was bursting with joy seeing the resulting code. It was so much cleaner than the fugly JNI interop junk, and the it worked flawlessly debugging a combination J#, C++/CLI, and C# solution. :cool: Kudos to the VS team for that. That said, the purely native development I've found to be really poor. I tried porting some VC6 projects to 2005 and VS would crash after a couple changes while updating Intellisense. It would also crash upon loading the solution, meaning I was basically locked out of the thing. Real pain. Also, I've found the native Intellisense to be very sluggish, especially compared to managed Intellisense. Compile times are also far slower. Generally, compared to the C# IDE, the C++ IDE just isn't quite as good. Throw in the built-in refactoring tools for C# to top things off. :-p The C++ IDE definitely has room for improvement.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
That said, the purely native development I've found to be really poor.
Yep. Seems to be that MS have focused on managed code generally and neglected classic C/C++ needs. Kevin
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
- Link time - cl used to be one of the fastest compilers around; now it is almost as slow as gcc
That is bad news. We've been suffering from poor link times since we jumped from VC6 to VC2003, but if it has gotten worse again, that would be bad news inded. Our major link slow downs are caused by a very large library that contains umpteen bazillion references to STL code.
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
- The C++ Standard Library seems to be getting slower and slower with every new release of VS. In return, they offered us "safe" version of many standard functions that are not safe at all, but are nonstandard and nonportable.
That is bad news indeed. The STL jumped a significant amount in quality from VC6 to 2003, but if they've gone down hill again, that would not be good at all. Oh, it just clicked, are you referring to the C run time (as opposed to the C++ Standard Library) ? deprecating sprintf and strcat et al?
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
- Can't they make a good editor already? I am still trying to convince my boss to buy me ViEmu[^]
There is no way Vi counts as a good editor. No. Way. Ever. In a million years. Even if I were wearing a tutu. And a hat. With bells on. ;P I do wish they would improve the editor though. Something I've wanted for so long, is for the code comments to be presented in a rich text format. Instead of xml or doxygen tags, I want to see the end results, with links and all, and be able to include diagrams whereever I want. BEtter refactoring I also want. I've been spoilt with Eclipse's refactoring (and Jetbrains offering is far better so I hear) so I want the same for C#. Jetbrains has a C# refactorizer that has most of the things I'd like, so hopefully I'll be able to look at that. - Phil
pmartin wrote:
Something I've wanted for so long, is for the code comments to be presented in a rich text format. Instead of xml or doxygen tags, I want to see the end results, with links and all, and be able to include diagrams whereever I want.
Isn't there some add-in which does a kind of rich text or HTML preview after you've entered the XML comments. Can't recall what it's called though or where I saw it.
pmartin wrote:
BEtter refactoring I also want. I've been spoilt with Eclipse's refactoring (and Jetbrains offering is far better so I hear)
Yes, I used Resharper a bit for a few weeks before Christmas on an assignment. The VS built-in refactoring is not a patch. However, the free DevExpress refactoring plug-in for VB is better and very slick. They also have a product for C# in both 2003 and 2005. Kevin
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For some reason the python syntax just makes my eyes hurt. No idea why, it so odd. I think I've been brainwashed to think anything except c++ is bad :D. Have you tried out IronPython at all?
pmartin wrote:
I've been brainwashed to think anything except c++ is bad
Well, technically, C-family syntax sucks. But it hassuch widespread mindshare now and most of us just get used to it. I've used Python a bit and I agree it is initially weird. But in fact after a bit of usage it's not bad at all. Or that's what I found. Ruby is a bit nicer though. Though it too has some weird things. Kevin
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
- Link time - cl used to be one of the fastest compilers around; now it is almost as slow as gcc
That is bad news. We've been suffering from poor link times since we jumped from VC6 to VC2003, but if it has gotten worse again, that would be bad news inded. Our major link slow downs are caused by a very large library that contains umpteen bazillion references to STL code.
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
- The C++ Standard Library seems to be getting slower and slower with every new release of VS. In return, they offered us "safe" version of many standard functions that are not safe at all, but are nonstandard and nonportable.
That is bad news indeed. The STL jumped a significant amount in quality from VC6 to 2003, but if they've gone down hill again, that would not be good at all. Oh, it just clicked, are you referring to the C run time (as opposed to the C++ Standard Library) ? deprecating sprintf and strcat et al?
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
- Can't they make a good editor already? I am still trying to convince my boss to buy me ViEmu[^]
There is no way Vi counts as a good editor. No. Way. Ever. In a million years. Even if I were wearing a tutu. And a hat. With bells on. ;P I do wish they would improve the editor though. Something I've wanted for so long, is for the code comments to be presented in a rich text format. Instead of xml or doxygen tags, I want to see the end results, with links and all, and be able to include diagrams whereever I want. BEtter refactoring I also want. I've been spoilt with Eclipse's refactoring (and Jetbrains offering is far better so I hear) so I want the same for C#. Jetbrains has a C# refactorizer that has most of the things I'd like, so hopefully I'll be able to look at that. - Phil
pmartin wrote:
Oh, it just clicked, are you referring to the C run time (as opposed to the C++ Standard Library) ? deprecating sprintf and strcat et al?
Both. They have deprecated sprintf and friends, but also std::copy X|
pmartin wrote:
There is no way Vi counts as a good editor
Of course not. vi is not merely a good editor. It is the greatest editor ever ;P Actually, when I think of it, vi is the only editor. The others are just pale attempts to make an editor.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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pmartin wrote:
Oh, it just clicked, are you referring to the C run time (as opposed to the C++ Standard Library) ? deprecating sprintf and strcat et al?
Both. They have deprecated sprintf and friends, but also std::copy X|
pmartin wrote:
There is no way Vi counts as a good editor
Of course not. vi is not merely a good editor. It is the greatest editor ever ;P Actually, when I think of it, vi is the only editor. The others are just pale attempts to make an editor.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
Both. They have deprecated sprintf and friends, but also std::copy
you are kidding me? why? why would you do that? -- The Obliterator