When does it end?
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Fair enough. By that definition, you are right. My definition would be, if the action in question is sanctioned on grounds of religion, it's religious. If the prime motivation is power, or politics, then those motivations would exist in a world without religion, so religion is not the prime motivator or the reason for whatever action being discussed. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
If the prime motivation is power, or politics, then those motivations would exist in a world without religion, so religion is not the prime motivator
Not if the religions themselves are the source of the power and/or political issues.
"What classes are you using ? You shouldn't call stuff if you have no idea what it does" Christian Graus in the C# forum led mike
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Christian Graus wrote:
If the prime motivation is power, or politics, then those motivations would exist in a world without religion, so religion is not the prime motivator
Not if the religions themselves are the source of the power and/or political issues.
"What classes are you using ? You shouldn't call stuff if you have no idea what it does" Christian Graus in the C# forum led mike
led mike wrote:
Not if the religions themselves are the source of the power and/or political issues.
Well, that seems true, but I can't think of an example, certainly none of the examples offered would qualify. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Mel Gibson was only one who came to mind. I was also thinking of how a few years ago mainstream TV was criticized by the right wing christians of "neglecting" them and being too secular. Now we have this spate of pseudoreligious programming such as "Touched by an Angel" and, I think from the teasers I've seen, things like "Ghost Whisperer" and "Medium". The let's take a few religious ideas and spin them all over them map. But next thing you have entertainment giving "credence" to a lot of the fringe because some people can't tell the difference just like da Vinci Code.
Tim Craig wrote:
"Ghost Whisperer" and "Medium"
That can't be for a seriously christian audience surely? The occult isn't exactly popular with evangelicals. It must be targetted at credulous agnostics and the 'spiritual'. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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Then you have nothing to complain about when you are offended by the church being offended. "You get that which you tolerate"
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So the crusades, the inquisition, the 19th century witch burnings and the current islamist terrorism are all myths? Or are you suggesting that religious zealotry was merely a tool manipulated to accomplish some political aim behind all of these? We need to graduate from the ridiculous notion that greed is some kind of elixir for capitalism - it's the downfall of capitalism. Self-interest, maybe, but self-interest run amok does not serve anyone. The core value of conscious capitalism is enlightened self-interest. Patricia Aburdene -- modified at 12:22 Sunday 7th May, 2006 (I really need to work on my typing skills)
Rob Graham wrote:
the crusades
That was a war led by the Roman Cathoic Church to grab land and would not come anywhere near the savagry of China, Germany or the USSR.
Rob Graham wrote:
the inquisition
Historians agree that the inquisitions reputation exceeds its reality in both size and scope and would not come anywhere near the savagry of China, Germany or the USSR.
Rob Graham wrote:
the 19th century witch burnings
I think you have the wrong century.
Rob Graham wrote:
the current islamist terrorism
This is one you actually have right. Ironically islamofascism is derived from atheist governments. It's also non-Christian.
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Personally, I would even add that Comunism and Fascism are also some kind of religions, with their own dogmas (class strugle, proletariat's dictature, vital space etc.) their own churches (the parties) their own messiahas (Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Il Duce, Hitler, Marx) their version of infidels (burgeoisie, jews and the other side) and their own promisse of paradise (the "classless society" and the Reich). Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons. Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950) Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles. George Jean Nathan (1882 - 1958) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784)
So then you agree with my previous oft-fought opinion that atheism is, in fact, a religion. It's only difference is that it competes with other religions by masking itself as the absence of religion, which you seem to agree is not true.
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Rob Graham wrote:
the crusades
That was a war led by the Roman Cathoic Church to grab land and would not come anywhere near the savagry of China, Germany or the USSR.
Rob Graham wrote:
the inquisition
Historians agree that the inquisitions reputation exceeds its reality in both size and scope and would not come anywhere near the savagry of China, Germany or the USSR.
Rob Graham wrote:
the 19th century witch burnings
I think you have the wrong century.
Rob Graham wrote:
the current islamist terrorism
This is one you actually have right. Ironically islamofascism is derived from atheist governments. It's also non-Christian.
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Cardinal urges legal action against Da Vinci Code[^] In the latest Vatican broadside against "The Da Vinci Code," a leading cardinal says Christians should respond to the book and film with legal action because both offend Christ and the Church he founded. Cardinal Francis Arinze, a Nigerian who was considered a candidate for pope last year, made his strong comments in a documentary called "The Da Vinci Code-A Masterful Deception." Arinze's appeal came some 10 days after another Vatican cardinal called for a boycott of the film. Both cardinals asserted that other religions would never stand for offences against their beliefs and that Christians should get tough. "Christians must not just sit back and say it is enough for us to forgive and to forget," Arinze said in the documentary made by Rome film maker Mario Biasetti for Rome Reports, a Catholic film agency specializing in religious affairs. Since when does anybody/everybody have a "right" to not be offended? When mankind actually succeeds in killing itself off completely, I'll bet that it won't be a political issue or even an environmental one - I'd wager that religion and some moron/zealot feeling offended will be at the heart of it. "If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done." - Peter Ustinov
What's REALLY stupid is that Dan Brown said from the beginning that his book was a work of fiction. I think this cardinal is just pissed off because he wasn't promoted to popeness. He's got as much going on upstairs as that Venezuelan nutcase, Chavez... ------- sig starts "Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Islamofascism. Saddam Hussein modelled his government primarily after Hitler's, with some communist features thrown in (link[^]). Iran's modern government was created through the backing and support of the USSR. Osama Bin Laden was brought about through war with the atheist USSR. In fact the entire region was rather temperate and venerable before the atheist influences of the USSR brought IslamoFascism into being.
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Rob Graham wrote:
the crusades
That was a war led by the Roman Cathoic Church to grab land and would not come anywhere near the savagry of China, Germany or the USSR.
Rob Graham wrote:
the inquisition
Historians agree that the inquisitions reputation exceeds its reality in both size and scope and would not come anywhere near the savagry of China, Germany or the USSR.
Rob Graham wrote:
the 19th century witch burnings
I think you have the wrong century.
Rob Graham wrote:
the current islamist terrorism
This is one you actually have right. Ironically islamofascism is derived from atheist governments. It's also non-Christian.
Your points are correct and well put. If people would only learn history. As Cicero puts it: "He who does not know history is destined to remain a child." To add to your points, all the wars that the Roman Empire did in its conquests of the world accumulated to more savagery than any religion.
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led mike wrote:
Not if the religions themselves are the source of the power and/or political issues.
Well, that seems true, but I can't think of an example, certainly none of the examples offered would qualify. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
I must just be dense when it comes to this issue. Isn't most if not all of today's violence from Muslim fanatics based on religious doctrine?
"What classes are you using ? You shouldn't call stuff if you have no idea what it does" Christian Graus in the C# forum led mike
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The Crusades *used* religion to motivate the masses. They were not created for religious purposes. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Islamofascism. Saddam Hussein modelled his government primarily after Hitler's, with some communist features thrown in (link[^]). Iran's modern government was created through the backing and support of the USSR. Osama Bin Laden was brought about through war with the atheist USSR. In fact the entire region was rather temperate and venerable before the atheist influences of the USSR brought IslamoFascism into being.
Let me get this right, you are blaming the 1400 year history of religiously sanctioned violence and despotism in the Islamic world on Atheism? P.S. Communism, Fascism and Atheism are not equivalent concepts.
espeir wrote:
In fact the entire region was rather temperate and venerable
No, it was subdued by empire and too economically backward to offer any kind of threat. You might want to check out: The river war[^] And the 'shores of tripoli' bit from the Marine battle hymn[^] Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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Let me get this right, you are blaming the 1400 year history of religiously sanctioned violence and despotism in the Islamic world on Atheism? P.S. Communism, Fascism and Atheism are not equivalent concepts.
espeir wrote:
In fact the entire region was rather temperate and venerable
No, it was subdued by empire and too economically backward to offer any kind of threat. You might want to check out: The river war[^] And the 'shores of tripoli' bit from the Marine battle hymn[^] Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Let me get this right, you are blaming the 1400 year history of religiously sanctioned violence and despotism in the Islamic world on Atheism? P.S. Communism, Fascism and Atheism are not equivalent concepts.
I've already gone over the relationship between Communism, Fascism and Atheism. It's equivelant to the relationship between Christianity and the Roman Catholic Church. The first is a religious concept and the latter is its implementation into religion. But yes, the region modelled its current governments after atheist governments and their formation was begun because of the influence of atheist governments in the region.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
No, it was subdued by empire and too economically backward to offer any kind of threat. You might want to check out: The river war[^] And the 'shores of tripoli' bit from the Marine battle hymn[^]
I can also post many more links of irreligious wars started by atheist states. The fact is that Islamic nations were rather temperate until the Soviet influence caused instability and the formation of governments modelled on other atheist governments.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Since when do only Christians not have the same "right" to be offended as everyone else?
Christians have exactly as much right to be offended as Muslims do -- none.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Thats doubtful -given that political and environmental issues have historically been far more distructive to human civilization than religions has.
Throughout history Religion has been the Political system for a lot of countries and it still is in places like the middle east. Can you think of any examples of destructive atheist governments besides the Communist governments of the former USSR and China?
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
You forgot Cuba!
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Stan Shannon wrote:
religion has not been the great scourge of human society that we are currently taught to think of it as
And I never suggested it was a "great scourge". It has, however, been responsible for some of the greatest atrocities in history. And when Catholics complain about a work of fiction, demanding legal suppression, they become no better than Muslims demanding suppression of cartoons of the prophet. I would think that a religion secure in its beliefs would simply ignore such petty anoyances. Instead, they call attention to them, mostly to their own detriment. We need to graduate from the ridiculous notion that greed is some kind of elixir for capitalism - it's the downfall of capitalism. Self-interest, maybe, but self-interest run amok does not serve anyone. The core value of conscious capitalism is enlightened self-interest. Patricia Aburdene
You're just another closet Marxist... :rolleyes:
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That is the same thing bin Laden is also doing -- *use* Islam to try and take over a few Muslim countries. US and Britain are standing in the way by supporting Saudi Arabia (which I believe is his target, from what I have read).
Thomas George wrote:
*use* Islam
Its a convenient tool, given most Islamic scholars do not refute his theology and Islamic supremacisism, only the definition of "innocent" - and we can see how well that works in Israel. Of course, all religion can and often is used as a tool to acquire temporal power, but Islam and the example of their prophet are particularly well adapted to the task. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
-- modified at 11:57 Monday 8th May, 2006
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Thomas George wrote:
*use* Islam
Its a convenient tool, given most Islamic scholars do not refute his theology and Islamic supremacisism, only the definition of "innocent" - and we can see how well that works in Israel. Of course, all religion can and often is used as a tool to acquire temporal power, but Islam and the example of their prophet are particularly well adapted to the task. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
-- modified at 11:57 Monday 8th May, 2006
IMO, Islam, Christianity, and Jewish religions are all capable of being *used* this way. But, the *fear of God* is more in Muslims these days. Most Christians and Jews don't take any political cues from religion these days. In a way, they have grown up. When three religions say that "There is only one God, and it is ours", there is bound to be some friction. :) Thomas
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Stan Shannon wrote:
religion has not been the great scourge of human society that we are currently taught to think of it as
And I never suggested it was a "great scourge". It has, however, been responsible for some of the greatest atrocities in history. And when Catholics complain about a work of fiction, demanding legal suppression, they become no better than Muslims demanding suppression of cartoons of the prophet. I would think that a religion secure in its beliefs would simply ignore such petty anoyances. Instead, they call attention to them, mostly to their own detriment. We need to graduate from the ridiculous notion that greed is some kind of elixir for capitalism - it's the downfall of capitalism. Self-interest, maybe, but self-interest run amok does not serve anyone. The core value of conscious capitalism is enlightened self-interest. Patricia Aburdene
I don't think the Catholic Church should sue (I doubt they expect anything more than attention to the issue over it). However, they probably do have legal standing. The book more than just makes claims of religion or mocks Jesus as those prophet cartoons did (Christians are already used to that kind of treatment). Rather, it specifically libels existing organizations (namely the Catholic Church and Opus Dei) and makes claims (that are supposedly based on fact) that they engage in various church-sanctioned criminal activities such as murder, kidnapping, theft, etc... If someone wrote a book about Tom Cruise (mentioning him by name) featured as a serial-killer/rapist, he could sue and would likely win a large settlement, even if the work is considered "fiction but based on facts".
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Tim Craig wrote:
"Ghost Whisperer" and "Medium"
That can't be for a seriously christian audience surely? The occult isn't exactly popular with evangelicals. It must be targetted at credulous agnostics and the 'spiritual'. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Ryan Roberts wrote:
That can't be for a seriously christian audience surely? The occult isn't exactly popular with evangelicals. It must be targetted at credulous agnostics and the 'spiritual'.
I don't think they're targeted at evangelicals. However, just how serious about christianity are the mindless masses who answer christian to the polls to show how "christian" this country is? I can't speak to the details since I don't watch either show. I just found it curios that the teasers they were running this past week both featured "angel of death" characters and one sceen was about "saving souls". At any given instant there are considerably more assholes than mouths in the universe.
