How to Quantify Your Work

code frog 0

Well of course you balance those things in. You also have to temper yourself. If you want to get a lot of money for 1 project you will. If you want to get financial independence from many projects then do not get a lot of money for 1. Which is to say that as you go through a feature and hit one that you are sure is complicated as you've not done it bill for what you think it would take a seasoned developer to do but include the hours you think it will take you to do (does that make sense?). You don't want to promise 3000 hours of work in 2800 hours that would be a bind. When I spec out something I tend to understand right away what makes it tricky. I then stop and google what I think would work and see what I can learn from the results (in most cases CP is high in the results and that's a nice thing). The other thing that I do (and I've done it a lot). Is that I might come up with a number in total. It's a number I think is right but might be a touch high. I always have my clients do 1/3 up front 2/3 at half way and the final 3/3 at delivery. It's not uncommon for me to drop that final balance by a hefty amount depending on how much time something took. The client likes it, you look like a saint and I guarantee you just got some paid advertising. You feel this stuff out though.

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Richard Andrew x64

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I like your 1/3, 2/3, 3/3 method. It seems very flexible and fair. If there's one thing I can't stand is when I agree on a price for a project, and then the guy starts piling on the list of requirements, and it soon gets out of hand, but I can't say anything cause I already agreed to a price! :mad: ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸

code frog 0

That's where your list of requirements comes in. The customer should sign something (that they get a copy of) that explains: This list summarizes the full and complete set of features. Any enhancements or additions to these features will come at an extra-cost and an extended time-line. I usually add that a $500 minimum is added to the top of any changes once the customer has signed the enclosed requirements and returned it. The $500 makes them really pause and think that maybe version 1.1 would be a better time to ask. Either way, you have a signed agreement that states they will pay more, they agreed to pay more and their signature proves such. Only then do you write even a single line of code.

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code frog 0

In addition to what I've already said. There are times where I can tell I've charged to much and so if the customer says, "Hey can we have this?" I very carefully explain that, "Yes, I will do this and I will do it at no charge but this is all I will do." It's fair for you to do, they love it and in the end your bill is more fair to them. Somehow you have to make sure to balance things out if you charge to much. If you don't charge enough you chalk it up to experience and you remember the next time you do a similar thing.

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normanS

Troposphere wrote:

I'm not asking how much I should charge, which would be illegal

What would be illegal about asking how much you should charge?

Richard Andrew x64

code-frog wrote:

Somehow you have to make sure to balance things out if you charge to much. If you don't charge enough you chalk it up to experience and you remember the next time you do a similar thing.

That makes a whole lot of sense. Thank you for your wise counsel. :cool: ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸

Richard Andrew x64

There are laws that say that if you discuss price figures, it might constitute price fixing. So you have to be careful. ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸

code frog 0

You get way more "Yes" answers from customers when they know the total price up front. When the customer hears "by the hour" some of them think of the last electrician or plumber they called and they politely say "No". It's always better to cap your bill you can budget your income the customer can budget their expense and in the end almost everyone is happy.

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normanS

Surely you are not trying to charge the same as a great developer? You can quote for 30 hours when a great developer would quote 15 hours, but then you should also quote 100 per hour, when a great developer would quote 250 per hour. The customer is quoted 3000 for your job or 3750 for the great developer's job. Why will the customer even look at the great developer's quote? Because (a) the great developer has a reputation of being able to do the job, you may never finish it, (b) the customer has to wait much longer for you to do the job, (c) the great developer will do a great job (part of the reputation thing maybe), while you may produce something unsupportable.

Richard Andrew x64

Well of course I am not charging what I think a super duper developer should get. I am going by what I earned per hour at my last job, and figuring in added expenses for being on my own, instead of being an employee. But your point is well taken. ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸

normanS

Unlikely. If you discuss prices with all (or most) possible suppliers, it could constitue price fixing. These days, everyone and their dog can write programs, so price fixing is almost impossible. If the customer only asks a small number of suppliers for quotes, hmmm. . . maybe then you would have to take care not to discuss too much.

normanS

Of course, I don't know much about quoting for jobs - I'm a salaried employee, and always have been (except for a year of contracting some years back.) Since getting married, kids, house, car, etc., the risk became something to consider. I did a few jobs "on the side" (against company regulations, but I decided there was no conflict of interests) but I only charged about the same as my pre-tax salary per hour. Then again, that was backdoor money - no taxes, etc. Nice pocket-money for 50 hours a month!

Christian Graus

At first, I did it based on how much money I needed to buy something I wanted, plus a couple of CDs and maybe dinner with the wife :P Nowadays, I'm much more scientific. I actually invoice my one client every month for work done, so I can work out hours after. VSTS is very helpful in this regard. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++

Lost User

By the hour normally. However, if you are doing one off work, the client might want a fixed price. So, work out how long it will take and base your quote on that. Sometimes it will take longer, sometimes shorter, but what you must ensure with this is that the requirements are very strongly agreed on otherwise the client cna keep you tweaking and tuning for ever, without paying you. Nunc est bibendum

Steve S

normanS wrote:

These days, everyone and their dog can write programs, so price fixing is almost impossible.

Nope; everyone and their dog thinks they can write programs. I know, I've worked with some of them :( Steve S Developer for hire

Paul Brower

One of the biggest (most important) lessons I learned in life was when I was running my own consulting company, and I bid (fixed price) on a project for $6000. This was in 1996. I was just starting out. I won the bid, and it took me about three weeks. I later found out that the next LOWEST bid was about $30,000. It opened my eyes. To answer your question, You may bid whatever you want, hourly or by the project. The customer can decide if they are willing to pay it.

JCParker

I can not speak for how others do their business, however when I contract I offer the following to my clients: Firm fixed price - project has a definate time line, Deliverables are clearly defined, no changes will be made until after the project is complete. Hourly - Project has estimated time line, deliverables are not yet fully defined, changes are made to scope on the fly. With either change management controls must be included, and documentation of all changes in direction must be documented and agreeded to bay all parties. And of course change orders with fixed price increase the project cost greatly. Just me ..... but I usually get call backs and seem to have a fair reputation for getting the job done on time and on budget so....

PICguy

This is a great discussion. I have only done one independent contract, the firmware for a small water tank tester. (The physics: if it doesn’t leak air it won’t leak water.) I quoted $2K _for a workable system._ Editing test sequences was extra and added another 1.5K. The hourly rate sucked but the money was better than a sharp stick in the face. The small outfit that I did this for initially felt that their hardware guy who dabbled in software could do it. Even he admitted that the task was beyond him. My $2K was more than they had planned. And the extra for sequence editing hurt. However, I did agree to defer my fee until the customer paid. I own the source code, the company has the right to modify it and use it in substantially equivalent systems. They do not have the right to release my code without my permission. The company does not generally make systems needing custom firmware. They typically do things like DC power amplifiers: 0-6V at 3mA in, with 0-6V at 30A out.

psully99

You did the PSP training? I was just reading about that last night on the Net. Looking for something similar to what this thread is about, in fact very similar! So here this pops up in my email today, LOL!

Stephan Samuel

Charge hourly. Know your how much you're worth, and always charge only that. Your clients are paying for your time. If you have a good business relationship with them, they value your time, understand that this is your livelihood, and are willing to pay you what you're worth. If you don't have that relationship, find another client with whom you can develop one. In addition, the thought that you can "sign off on requirements" is a fantasy. That works well for space shuttles, nuclear power plants and large skyscrapers. If they're not paying you (hourly) to gather requirements, and if that time isn't at least 10% of your total project time, you might as well stick to a common understanding and a handshake, referring back to the "good business relationship" above. Per-project billing is good for charity cases. I've done lots of work for non-profits, and some insist on paying me. I generally bill them 10-25% of my initial time estimate, which they don't see, as a fixed cost. Some clients get a discount on my rate, based mostly on my impression of their ability to bear the market rate of my services, and the IRS refunds it on April 15th. Stephan