Adnan's emotions... A white paper [modified]
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leckey wrote:
His user profile depicts Judah as being Christian so unless he converted I don't think he is in the best place to be teaching others what it means to be a Jew.
He's a Jew who believes that Jesus C was the messenger. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
They're only incompatible if you make them to be.
Nope - that's what I thought too. Read CG's posts on the matter. None of the religions are compatible with each other - a partial exception being Moderate Hinduism (though Hindus may disagree with me). Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Ah, yes. I was thinking about the humans practicing the religions. Sorry about that. :)
-- 100% natural. No superstitious additives.
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Jason Henderson wrote:
The question is not, "Why did God make this particular way to him, the only way?"
I don't really have that question. I was more interested in what the Christian understanding was on how God would see a non-beliver who was a very good person and who lived a very good kind life.
Jason Henderson wrote:
The question is, "Why was God so merciful to those that disobey him, that he gave us any means of salvation?"
What disobedience are you talking about?
Jason Henderson wrote:
AND, "With such a simple plan of salvation, why haven't I followed it?"
If I was born to Christian parents who strongly instilled Christian beliefs in me as a child, I may have taken it. But (luckily I think) I was born to moderate Hindu parents, who allowed me to have my atheist views about life, and so I actually could choose what I wanted to believe. I understand what you are saying though. Know this because I have a few Christian friends, normally very good people, but at times, just a tad hyper-religious. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
I don't really have that question. I was more interested in what the Christian understanding was on how God would see a non-beliver who was a very good person and who lived a very good kind life.
Did the non-believer hear God's message? If so, then there is no excuse. If not, then I believe the Bible says that person will be judged by God based on his own conscience.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
What disobedience are you talking about?
Everyone has done something wrong (sinned). What you have done wrong is a wrong against God. Lying, cheating, stealing, being selfish, etc.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
leckey wrote:
His user profile depicts Judah as being Christian so unless he converted I don't think he is in the best place to be teaching others what it means to be a Jew.
He's a Jew who believes that Jesus C was the messenger. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
The rest of the planet should take notice of you two.
Maybe a comic strip - Adnan and Judah - that shows how two people, who strongly believe in 2 mutually incompatible faiths, get along fine as friends :-) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New):laugh:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
I don't really have that question. I was more interested in what the Christian understanding was on how God would see a non-beliver who was a very good person and who lived a very good kind life.
Did the non-believer hear God's message? If so, then there is no excuse. If not, then I believe the Bible says that person will be judged by God based on his own conscience.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
What disobedience are you talking about?
Everyone has done something wrong (sinned). What you have done wrong is a wrong against God. Lying, cheating, stealing, being selfish, etc.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote:
Did the non-believer hear God's message? If so, then there is no excuse. If not, then I believe the Bible says that person will be judged by God based on his own conscience.
Thanks - that's what I was looking for. But I still find it weird that, a person (assume he's heard God's message) chooses to ignore God, but lives a perfectly kind, good, and self-less life; yet God's not happy with him. What would be the basis for this sort of reaction to a non-believer? Wouldn't this guy be a much better human being than a believer who's a drunkard and a nuisance to all around him? Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
leckey wrote:
Do you know if his mother was a practicing Jew?
I don't know that. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
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By definition, he is a Christian, of Hebrew descent? As were the first Christians. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
kgaddy wrote:
By definition, he is a Christian, of Hebrew descent? As were the first Christians.
I believe what Judah told me was that I was confusing Judaists with Jews. Apparently, not all Jews are Judaists. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
kgaddy wrote:
By definition, he is a Christian, of Hebrew descent? As were the first Christians.
I believe what Judah told me was that I was confusing Judaists with Jews. Apparently, not all Jews are Judaists. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
Judah Himango wrote:
instead you become slaves to addictions that you can ruin your life with
It does not require faith in God to resist short term pleasure in favour of long term peace with yourself and for the good of those you love. There's a fair strain of acetism in both the pre christian philosophies of Stoicism and epicurism which influenced Christian theology, as well as in the writings of Atheist enlightenment philosophers like John Stewart Mill. Faith in the supernatural, and certainly faith in the specific models of the supernatural specified by monotheistic religion is not required to live a life free from the reckless indulgence of animal desire. It requires will and good counsel, if your faith aids you with that, so be it. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
-- modified at 14:37 Wednesday 14th June, 2006
I guess I have a logical objection to it: if there is no God, aren't right and wrong nothing but human conjecture? Are there any real rights and wrongs universally speaking, or is everything relative? If the basis for morality is one's own perception of good and evil, the problem is easy to spot: one's perception can change on the whim; in fact, your own desires for doing evil things can affect your perception of good and evil and even influence you to believe an evil is not actually evil, thus defeating any perceived idea of right and wrongs. In other words, such a system is not far from doing whatever you see fit. Maybe you have your own ideas of right and wrong, but if you so desire, a wrong will quickly become a right. Such is not a moral system at all, but a lawless system based on the good intentions and strong will of humanity, both of which crumble easily when pittted against human desire.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Jason Henderson wrote:
Did the non-believer hear God's message? If so, then there is no excuse. If not, then I believe the Bible says that person will be judged by God based on his own conscience.
Thanks - that's what I was looking for. But I still find it weird that, a person (assume he's heard God's message) chooses to ignore God, but lives a perfectly kind, good, and self-less life; yet God's not happy with him. What would be the basis for this sort of reaction to a non-believer? Wouldn't this guy be a much better human being than a believer who's a drunkard and a nuisance to all around him? Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Thanks - that's what I was looking for. But I still find it weird that, a person (assume he's heard God's message) chooses to ignore God, but lives a perfectly kind, good, and self-less life; yet God's not happy with him. What would be the basis for this sort of reaction to a non-believer? Wouldn't this guy be a much better human being than a believer who's a drunkard and a nuisance to all around him?
God is not happy with him because he rejected God's message through his Son. They think they can still go to heaven because they are good. But no one is perfectly good. Jesus was a sacrifice for our sins. For those who follow him, he will stand between them and God, and vouch for them in the time of judgement (he took their sins upon himself). Those who did not follow him will still have their sins. The wages of sin is death. The believer who is a drunkard and a nuisance is probably not a believer. A believer is one that turns away from these things and tries his best to emulate Christ. Occasionally Christians stumble, but repentance and asking for forgiveness is all that is required to be forgiven once you are in Christ. Matthew 21:28-32 What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.' 'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go. "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
Extremely well-worded and well-argued posting, Bassam :-) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Thanks. :-> Religion, politics and sex happen to be my 3 favorite topics, and not in that order. :)
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Whats a Judaist? My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
kgaddy wrote:
Whats a Judaist?
Sorry - it may not be a real word. I used it to mean someone who follows Judaism. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
kgaddy wrote:
Whats a Judaist?
Sorry - it may not be a real word. I used it to mean someone who follows Judaism. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Sorry - it may not be a real word. I used it to mean someone who follows Judaism.
I think Jew works. When you said Jusaist, thought you meant someone who follows Judas! My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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Fisticuffs wrote:
The child's life and soul is in God's hands, not yours. The murderer's life and soul is in God's hands, not yours.
What if God works through man and somtimes that means killing evil men?
Fisticuffs wrote:
To be honest, it seems like you are searching to be told that killing someone would be OK, given some arbitrary circumstance.
No, thats absurd. This is in context of Christans defending themselves against islamic terrorists. I disagree with your beliefs on self defense. I hope I am never faced with the situation where I have to harm someone in self defense. But I do hope that if it did happen I would make the right decision, even if, God forbid, I had to take a life. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
kgaddy wrote:
What if God works through man and somtimes that means killing evil men?
It's possible - but that would be contrary to Jesus's teachings.
kgaddy wrote:
I disagree with your beliefs on self defense.
Well, they're not necessarily my beliefs, only my interpretation of the teachings of the Bible. More like a standard to live up to than, say, a condemnation or anything like that, because like you said - who knows what you would do until you're in that situation? Nobody gets the moral high ground until they're forced to practice what they preach. Not only that, but the divinity of Jesus would seem to imply that reaching such a standard could be difficult or impossible for us mere humans, anyway, but at least it gives us something to shoot for (pun intended). - F
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
Faith in the supernatural, and certainly faith in the specific models of the supernatural specified by monotheistic religion is not required to live a life free from the reckless indulgence of animal desire. It requires will and good counsel, if your faith aids you with that, so be it.
Exactly - very true! That's one area where I thoroughly disagree with Judah - he equates godless people with lawless people! That sort of attitude is only one magnitude away from those used by religious extremists against other religions! :sigh: Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)For people that don't believe in God, such as yourself, is there real good living in your life? Are you doing whatever you see fit, or do you have personal rules that guide you? If you've personal rules, how do those rules stand up when tested? I'm not trying to judge you here, or condemn you or make you feel bad, so please don't take it that way: Pornography is a good example because most men are easily overcome by it, reducing their good intentions and strong wills (whether backed by faith or not) to nothing. As married men, isn't it our obligation to stop indulging in things like that? Or maybe, by now, you've convinced yourself it is harmless? This is a real world application of good living and morality, not some airy spiritual thing. Where is the bit that keeps you from indulging in desires like that? What tells you to stay away from things like that? And does it actually work? Again, I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I don't know your personal life and don't need to; the point is resolving this, seeing if God-less people can really live clean lives. I don't think they can. To be honest, neither can Godly people, but there is, at least, an out for them. But that's another discussion.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Judah Himango wrote:
but at least the disagreeing can be done with respect and without backstabbing and hatred; we should leave leave those things to the lawless, godless folks.
I am a little shocked by this sentence. I am an atheist - and therefore god-less. I don't think I like being equated with being lawless :~ Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Then I'll leave it to you whether to do those things. What I am saying is this: people that go talk about God all day long ought to live Godly.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Judah Himango wrote:
I respectuflly disagree God is egoistic if he enjoys people that do good and believe in Him.
How about people that do good, but do not believe in him?
Judah Himango wrote:
In reality, then, there would be no real good and no real evil, just human speculation.
Even good and evil are human invented over the centuries, when we've slowly come to an agreement on what's really good, and what's really bad. Religious and non-religious people agree that it's evil (or bad) to hurt a child, to steal, to rape, to murder etc.
Judah Himango wrote:
What it comes down to, Nish, is someone is right in all this.
While that is a possibility, it's also possible that different people are partially but not 100% right. Or that everyone's wrong and the truth is totally different from what anyone has imagined.
Judah Himango wrote:
On the contrary, most paths naturally lead to things humans enjoy doing; this forum is a testament to that, with people mocking other people, bashing other religions or all religions, hateful speech, to name a few.
Half-agree. But it's also true that religious people (across religions) have also done some really nice things in life. Oh, and some of us atheists can be nice people too :-) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
How about people that do good, but do not believe in him?
It's a good question. I think if you don't believe in God, you'll tend to gravitate towards ungodly things. I elaborated on this in reply to your other post with Ryan Roberts.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Even good and evil are human invented over the centuries
So good and evil are an invention? If they're an invention, then there is nothing *truely* wrong with the things you mentioned; they're just not socially acceptable. Such a belief also opens up all kinds of doors for justifying evil; after all, evil isn't real, it's just an invention of other people.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
While that is a possibility, it's also possible that different people are partially but not 100% right.
I agree (didn't I say that truth might be spread around among various groups in my original post? :) oh well). Would you believe it Nish, I acknowledge I don't have 100% truth. I'll even go as far to say, I'm certain I'm wrong about some things. I also believe other religions have pieces of truth as well: a Hindu co-worker really showed me respect for all life, it really left an impression on my and changed my thinnking. Jews follow the same God I do. Islam can teach me a thing about submitting to God and that there is only one God.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Half-agree. But it's also true that religious people (across religions) have also done some really nice things in life. Oh, and some of us atheists can be nice people too :)
Ok, so we share a little common ground. Here's what I see: there are both religious people and atheists that are evil. Yep! Religious people from my religion, especially. The key isn't religion, but walking out a Godly life every day -- a real relationship with God -- not just talking about it all the time. And what is a Godly life? That's living like God would live, something Messiah physically demonstrated: a servant kind of life that lives for God and for other people. That's the real key; something that lots of religious people miss, as well as atheists.
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Jason Henderson wrote:
Did the non-believer hear God's message? If so, then there is no excuse. If not, then I believe the Bible says that person will be judged by God based on his own conscience.
Thanks - that's what I was looking for. But I still find it weird that, a person (assume he's heard God's message) chooses to ignore God, but lives a perfectly kind, good, and self-less life; yet God's not happy with him. What would be the basis for this sort of reaction to a non-believer? Wouldn't this guy be a much better human being than a believer who's a drunkard and a nuisance to all around him? Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
assume he's heard God's message
If he were to continue to be a drunkard and a nuisance, that would would indicate that he has not really heard God's message.
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I guess I have a logical objection to it: if there is no God, aren't right and wrong nothing but human conjecture? Are there any real rights and wrongs universally speaking, or is everything relative? If the basis for morality is one's own perception of good and evil, the problem is easy to spot: one's perception can change on the whim; in fact, your own desires for doing evil things can affect your perception of good and evil and even influence you to believe an evil is not actually evil, thus defeating any perceived idea of right and wrongs. In other words, such a system is not far from doing whatever you see fit. Maybe you have your own ideas of right and wrong, but if you so desire, a wrong will quickly become a right. Such is not a moral system at all, but a lawless system based on the good intentions and strong will of humanity, both of which crumble easily when pittted against human desire.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
Are there any real rights and wrongs universally speaking, or is everything relative?
I do not believe that good and evil exist as tangible forces outside of human interpretation, no. I do believe we are born moral creatures, with an an inherent ability to learn right and wrong, this is developed through learning, experience and empathy. Not all morality can or should be framed in absolute terms. I do not have the same degree of moral certainty when thinking about the murder of an innocent human being as I do when thinking about childhood obesity. This doesn't mean I am about to flip-flop my stance on murder. From the perspective of an unbeliever, religious law is man made law, applied by its believers depending on will and circumstance. Christians at least have changed their minds over many issues over the centuries - how many marriages were blessed between 50 year old men and 12 year old girls by the church and for how long was slavery condoned? How many were killed over doctrinal differences by the faithful? You may posit the will of God as a constant, but the interpretation of that will has historically been variable. See "The reliance of the traveller" and present day Iran for an example of what happens when the interpretation of divine will remain relatively constant - anachronistic barbarity.
Judah Himango wrote:
such a system is not far from doing whatever you see fit
And neither is yours, you simply justify it using the supernatural, unless of course you no longer sin and manage to apply your morality correctly at every turn - in which case you are probably guilty of pride :) Why do you need the threat of Supernatural vengeance (or at least neglect) to behave decently? Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
-- modified at 19:12 Wednesday 14th June, 2006