Adnan's emotions... A white paper [modified]

[Judah Gabriel Himango]

I guess I have a logical objection to it: if there is no God, aren't right and wrong nothing but human conjecture? Are there any real rights and wrongs universally speaking, or is everything relative? If the basis for morality is one's own perception of good and evil, the problem is easy to spot: one's perception can change on the whim; in fact, your own desires for doing evil things can affect your perception of good and evil and even influence you to believe an evil is not actually evil, thus defeating any perceived idea of right and wrongs. In other words, such a system is not far from doing whatever you see fit. Maybe you have your own ideas of right and wrong, but if you so desire, a wrong will quickly become a right. Such is not a moral system at all, but a lawless system based on the good intentions and strong will of humanity, both of which crumble easily when pittted against human desire.

Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango

[Jason Henderson]

Nishant Sivakumar wrote:

Thanks - that's what I was looking for. But I still find it weird that, a person (assume he's heard God's message) chooses to ignore God, but lives a perfectly kind, good, and self-less life; yet God's not happy with him. What would be the basis for this sort of reaction to a non-believer? Wouldn't this guy be a much better human being than a believer who's a drunkard and a nuisance to all around him?

God is not happy with him because he rejected God's message through his Son. They think they can still go to heaven because they are good. But no one is perfectly good. Jesus was a sacrifice for our sins. For those who follow him, he will stand between them and God, and vouch for them in the time of judgement (he took their sins upon himself). Those who did not follow him will still have their sins. The wages of sin is death. The believer who is a drunkard and a nuisance is probably not a believer. A believer is one that turns away from these things and tries his best to emulate Christ. Occasionally Christians stumble, but repentance and asking for forgiveness is all that is required to be forgiven once you are in Christ. Matthew 21:28-32 What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.' 'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go. "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

"Live long and prosper." - Spock

Jason Henderson
blog

[Bassam Abdul Baki]

Thanks. :-> Religion, politics and sex happen to be my 3 favorite topics, and not in that order. :)

[Nish Nishant]

kgaddy wrote:

Whats a Judaist?

Sorry - it may not be a real word. I used it to mean someone who follows Judaism. Regards, Nish

---

Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)

[kgaddy]

Nishant Sivakumar wrote:

Sorry - it may not be a real word. I used it to mean someone who follows Judaism.

I think Jew works. When you said Jusaist, thought you meant someone who follows Judas! My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"

[Lost User]

kgaddy wrote:

What if God works through man and somtimes that means killing evil men?

It's possible - but that would be contrary to Jesus's teachings.

kgaddy wrote:

I disagree with your beliefs on self defense.

Well, they're not necessarily my beliefs, only my interpretation of the teachings of the Bible. More like a standard to live up to than, say, a condemnation or anything like that, because like you said - who knows what you would do until you're in that situation? Nobody gets the moral high ground until they're forced to practice what they preach. Not only that, but the divinity of Jesus would seem to imply that reaching such a standard could be difficult or impossible for us mere humans, anyway, but at least it gives us something to shoot for (pun intended). - F

[Judah Gabriel Himango]

For people that don't believe in God, such as yourself, is there real good living in your life? Are you doing whatever you see fit, or do you have personal rules that guide you? If you've personal rules, how do those rules stand up when tested? I'm not trying to judge you here, or condemn you or make you feel bad, so please don't take it that way: Pornography is a good example because most men are easily overcome by it, reducing their good intentions and strong wills (whether backed by faith or not) to nothing. As married men, isn't it our obligation to stop indulging in things like that? Or maybe, by now, you've convinced yourself it is harmless? This is a real world application of good living and morality, not some airy spiritual thing. Where is the bit that keeps you from indulging in desires like that? What tells you to stay away from things like that? And does it actually work? Again, I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I don't know your personal life and don't need to; the point is resolving this, seeing if God-less people can really live clean lives. I don't think they can. To be honest, neither can Godly people, but there is, at least, an out for them. But that's another discussion.

Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango

[Judah Gabriel Himango]

Then I'll leave it to you whether to do those things. What I am saying is this: people that go talk about God all day long ought to live Godly.

Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango

[Judah Gabriel Himango]

Nishant Sivakumar wrote:

How about people that do good, but do not believe in him?

It's a good question. I think if you don't believe in God, you'll tend to gravitate towards ungodly things. I elaborated on this in reply to your other post with Ryan Roberts.

Nishant Sivakumar wrote:

Even good and evil are human invented over the centuries

So good and evil are an invention? If they're an invention, then there is nothing *truely* wrong with the things you mentioned; they're just not socially acceptable. Such a belief also opens up all kinds of doors for justifying evil; after all, evil isn't real, it's just an invention of other people.

Nishant Sivakumar wrote:

While that is a possibility, it's also possible that different people are partially but not 100% right.

I agree (didn't I say that truth might be spread around among various groups in my original post? :) oh well). Would you believe it Nish, I acknowledge I don't have 100% truth. I'll even go as far to say, I'm certain I'm wrong about some things. I also believe other religions have pieces of truth as well: a Hindu co-worker really showed me respect for all life, it really left an impression on my and changed my thinnking. Jews follow the same God I do. Islam can teach me a thing about submitting to God and that there is only one God.

Nishant Sivakumar wrote:

Half-agree. But it's also true that religious people (across religions) have also done some really nice things in life. Oh, and some of us atheists can be nice people too :)

Ok, so we share a little common ground. Here's what I see: there are both religious people and atheists that are evil. Yep! Religious people from my religion, especially. The key isn't religion, but walking out a Godly life every day -- a real relationship with God -- not just talking about it all the time. And what is a Godly life? That's living like God would live, something Messiah physically demonstrated: a servant kind of life that lives for God and for other people. That's the real key; something that lots of religious people miss, as well as atheists.

Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about:

[xlr ltspan style font size110 color 990000font we]

Nishant Sivakumar wrote:

assume he's heard God's message

If he were to continue to be a drunkard and a nuisance, that would would indicate that he has not really heard God's message.

[Ryan Roberts]

Judah Himango wrote:

Are there any real rights and wrongs universally speaking, or is everything relative?

I do not believe that good and evil exist as tangible forces outside of human interpretation, no. I do believe we are born moral creatures, with an an inherent ability to learn right and wrong, this is developed through learning, experience and empathy. Not all morality can or should be framed in absolute terms. I do not have the same degree of moral certainty when thinking about the murder of an innocent human being as I do when thinking about childhood obesity. This doesn't mean I am about to flip-flop my stance on murder. From the perspective of an unbeliever, religious law is man made law, applied by its believers depending on will and circumstance. Christians at least have changed their minds over many issues over the centuries - how many marriages were blessed between 50 year old men and 12 year old girls by the church and for how long was slavery condoned? How many were killed over doctrinal differences by the faithful? You may posit the will of God as a constant, but the interpretation of that will has historically been variable. See "The reliance of the traveller" and present day Iran for an example of what happens when the interpretation of divine will remain relatively constant - anachronistic barbarity.

Judah Himango wrote:

such a system is not far from doing whatever you see fit

And neither is yours, you simply justify it using the supernatural, unless of course you no longer sin and manage to apply your morality correctly at every turn - in which case you are probably guilty of pride :) Why do you need the threat of Supernatural vengeance (or at least neglect) to behave decently? Ryan

"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette

-- modified at 19:12 Wednesday 14th June, 2006

[Edbert P]

The Jews wanted Jesus to lead a revolt and topple the Roman Empire at that time. He told them again and again they've got the wrong idea. The Christians bear persecution under Nero and did not ever conspired to retaliate back (ok, I recalled vaguely a story on a Christian group defending a place and got all killed by Romans but that's not actively attacking). None of the Christians under the New Testament ever taught us to retaliate and kill our enemies. I have to agree with Judah, Jason, and Fisticuffs that the TRUE teaching of Christianity is to love even your enemies. Hey, nobody ever said being a Christian is easy. Maybe some people just want to have all the good things but not the cross itself that they have to carry. "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner" - Ross Edbert Sydney, Australia

[Tim Craig]

Judah Himango wrote:

If some of the paths -- ways of living your life -- be that religion or just plain ethics, lead to an evil way of live, a way of life that is not God-honoring, then we can't say that all ways are acceptable.

This seems to be saying that unless people accept your god in your way they aren't leading acceptable lives.

Judah Himango wrote:

Those who just do whatever's right in their own eyes live a life free to do whatever they please.

Actually, in civilized society they don't. There are laws that exist. However, those laws have to be common sense and not religion based if you expect diverse peoples to accept them. Maybe when you were conducting your hedonistic experiment, you were too young to exercise common sense?

Judah Himango wrote:

I don't buy the nonsense that everyone's way to God is alright, but at least the disagreeing can be done with respect and without backstabbing and hatred; we should leave leave those things to the lawless, godless folks.

There you go again equating godless to lawless and seem to be saying to be a good person we'd better come around to your way of thinking. To me, that's pretty insulting. The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance. -- modified at 20:51 Wednesday 14th June, 2006

[Ed Gadziemski]

leckey wrote:

I can't remember the name of it but the word Assassin comes from it.

Hashshashin (or Assassins) had a militant basis as a religious sect of Ismaili Muslims from the Nizari sub-sect. They were thought to be active in the 8th to 14th centuries. .... This constant religious estrangement would eventually see them go so far as allying with the Occidental Christians against Muslims on a number of occasions. .... Plainly, their connection to mainstream Islam was tangential at best.[^]

---

KwikiVac Vacuum Cleaner Supplies

[Bassam Abdul Baki]

:laugh:

[Ryan Roberts]

Judah Himango wrote:

For people that don't believe in God, such as yourself, is there real good living in your life? Are you doing whatever you see fit, or do you have personal rules that guide you? If you've personal rules, how do those rules stand up when tested?

As far as my conduct with others goes i'm a reciprocal altruist who starts out nice and will attempt to resolve conflict in a reasonable manner. I often wish I did volunteer work, and I donate money to causes that I believe do good. I do not (probably could not) live my life for others in the true Christian or Buddhist sense though, and I don't think many believers do either. I am far too selfish. Some people seem more capable of acts of total selflessness than others and I do not believe that can be driven purely by faith. Having been living in sin for a couple of years I can discuss the porn issue with some experience. As a single man, I used pornography pretty heavily. Now my context has changed, I do not to anywhere near the same extent and feel guilt when I do. This is due to empathy with my girlfriend, not an absolute prohibition. I know people who mutually use porn in their relationships, for them it is a different choice. Whether it's conductive to a healthy long term relationship in those circumstances, I can't really say, not enough evidence, not my relationship. I certainly don't have any moral qualms about watching explicit (not porn in the commercial sense) films with my girlfriend, as its the furtive masturbation that's the moral issue, not the pixels. Can I live up to my ideals? Generaly not. Which might imply that I at least try to set them higher than the way I know that I am inclined to behave :) Ryan

"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette

[Bassam Abdul Baki]

:laugh: Your welcome text in your UT Blog at the top needs to be inside the right margin (in FireFox).

[Bassam Abdul Baki]

True, but what you perceive to be God's universal right and wrong or good and bad is by design flawed based upon what you perceive God to be. Even in Mathematics, most of what we believe to be proven theorems are based upon axioms that are defined, but not proven, as being self-evident. That is why Euclid's Fifth Postulate was a cause for great debate among mathematicians since it could not be proven right or wrong. That is why we still don't know if we live in a Euclidean universe or not. That is the greatness of God's creation. There is a very good "joke" on how Islam teaches Euclidean geometry which I actually find to be very moving. However, the translation is lost in English and is not worth repeating. So believing that many forms of good and right can exist, because God allows it, is just as valid as believing only one form can exist. It's all hearsay in the end and God only knows.

[Ed Gadziemski]

Until the 1980s, attempts to mobilize Muslims all over the world for a jihad in one area of the world (Palestine, Kashmir) were unsuccessful. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was a watershed event, as it revived the concept of participation in jihad to evict an “infidel” occupier from a Muslim country as a “personal duty” (fard ’ein) for every capable Muslim.[^]

---

KwikiVac Vacuum Cleaner Supplies

[Ed Gadziemski]

Alvaro Mendez wrote:

Ultra right wingers prefer to follow a more convenient Jesus

Fabulous!!!

---

KwikiVac Vacuum Cleaner Supplies