Adnan's emotions... A white paper [modified]
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Alvaro Mendez wrote:
Ultra right wingers prefer to follow a more convenient Jesus
Fabulous!!!
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kgaddy wrote:
What if I saw a man getting ready to kill an innocent child. The only way to stop him his is to shoot him (say he is a long way away). Are you saying I should not shoot him and let the child die? I just want to make sure here.
The child's life and soul is in God's hands, not yours. The murderer's life and soul is in God's hands, not yours. To kill someone to save a life is a sum of zero. To kill someone to save a life implies that YOU are judging the worthiness of their souls, that YOU are judging which soul is ready to meet the Father and which is not. YOU are not the judge of that. To be honest, it seems like you are searching to be told that killing someone would be OK, given some arbitrary circumstance. This is not what Jesus wants of us. - F
Fisticuffs wrote:
To kill someone to save a life is a sum of zero.
I sure am glad that our military and police forces dont think that way. Stand rigid for the next battle Peace means reloading your guns The love for life is all hatred in disguise - Dimmu Borgir
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Judah Himango wrote:
Are there any real rights and wrongs universally speaking, or is everything relative?
I do not believe that good and evil exist as tangible forces outside of human interpretation, no. I do believe we are born moral creatures, with an an inherent ability to learn right and wrong, this is developed through learning, experience and empathy. Not all morality can or should be framed in absolute terms. I do not have the same degree of moral certainty when thinking about the murder of an innocent human being as I do when thinking about childhood obesity. This doesn't mean I am about to flip-flop my stance on murder. From the perspective of an unbeliever, religious law is man made law, applied by its believers depending on will and circumstance. Christians at least have changed their minds over many issues over the centuries - how many marriages were blessed between 50 year old men and 12 year old girls by the church and for how long was slavery condoned? How many were killed over doctrinal differences by the faithful? You may posit the will of God as a constant, but the interpretation of that will has historically been variable. See "The reliance of the traveller" and present day Iran for an example of what happens when the interpretation of divine will remain relatively constant - anachronistic barbarity.
Judah Himango wrote:
such a system is not far from doing whatever you see fit
And neither is yours, you simply justify it using the supernatural, unless of course you no longer sin and manage to apply your morality correctly at every turn - in which case you are probably guilty of pride :) Why do you need the threat of Supernatural vengeance (or at least neglect) to behave decently? Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
-- modified at 19:12 Wednesday 14th June, 2006
Ryan Roberts wrote:
religious law is man made law
That's where we start to differ. There is law which we say to be God's Law; something Messiah boiled all down into 2 laws: love God, and love others. Those are not man-made. Of course, you might believe them to be man made; it's all differences stemming from belief versus disbelief. What you point out as inconsistencies is right on: religious people don't always act Godly. I made this clear to Nish below; religious people can behave worse than non-religious people. The reason is because religion cannot be the focus. Instead, a personal relationship with God must be the focus, ritualism aside. I don't need threats of divine vengence to behave. Instead of vengence, we have a sheer gift: forgiveness! Even if we don't deserve it. That's what we like to call grace. :cool: Doing good, then, isn't some chore or tedious job to attend to, but a way of living free in God. Free from addictions and ungodly living that God-less ways tend to degenerate into.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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True, but what you perceive to be God's universal right and wrong or good and bad is by design flawed based upon what you perceive God to be. Even in Mathematics, most of what we believe to be proven theorems are based upon axioms that are defined, but not proven, as being self-evident. That is why Euclid's Fifth Postulate was a cause for great debate among mathematicians since it could not be proven right or wrong. That is why we still don't know if we live in a Euclidean universe or not. That is the greatness of God's creation. There is a very good "joke" on how Islam teaches Euclidean geometry which I actually find to be very moving. However, the translation is lost in English and is not worth repeating. So believing that many forms of good and right can exist, because God allows it, is just as valid as believing only one form can exist. It's all hearsay in the end and God only knows.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
based upon what you perceive God to
Ah, see, there is the whole point. I'm betting everything, my whole life, on the idea that God is what Jesus showed us: pure love. Love God, love others, the 2 commandments on which all of Jewish and Christian Scripture hang. Sure, you can choose to believe your own way; my way is as flawed as yours, sure. Each person bets his life to his beliefs and lives accordingly. I'm betting mine on God, the one and only, that says love is the key. :cool:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
religious law is man made law
That's where we start to differ. There is law which we say to be God's Law; something Messiah boiled all down into 2 laws: love God, and love others. Those are not man-made. Of course, you might believe them to be man made; it's all differences stemming from belief versus disbelief. What you point out as inconsistencies is right on: religious people don't always act Godly. I made this clear to Nish below; religious people can behave worse than non-religious people. The reason is because religion cannot be the focus. Instead, a personal relationship with God must be the focus, ritualism aside. I don't need threats of divine vengence to behave. Instead of vengence, we have a sheer gift: forgiveness! Even if we don't deserve it. That's what we like to call grace. :cool: Doing good, then, isn't some chore or tedious job to attend to, but a way of living free in God. Free from addictions and ungodly living that God-less ways tend to degenerate into.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
There is law which we say to be God's Law; something Messiah boiled all down into 2 laws: love God, and love others. Those are not man-made. Of course, you might believe them to be man made; it's all differences stemming from belief versus disbelief.
The biggest problem I have with organized religion is that most of the laws that are preached to us by so called "men of God" are man's interpretation of God's law as filtered through the interpreter's eyes, wants, needs and beliefs (and sometimes lies!). Many organized religions (and that's what this whole thread boils down to, that organized religions are causing most of the world's problems because of the inherent intolerence against other organized religions) say "our way is the one true religion and all the rest shall be damned" when MY belief is that God will accept us regardless of which religion we follow as long as the basic tenents of that belief are to do no harm. Do I believe in a supreme being? Yes. Do I believe I have to get together with a bunch of like minded people in worship? No, because it's between me and and God and nobody has the right to come between us. Do I believe that Jesus was God's son made flesh? I have to say yes simply because according to what I understand from the bible we're all God's children. Was there something special about him? I can say it's possible but I don't know with any level of certainty (hense the lower case "h" in the previous sentence). And quite honestly, neither does anyone else alive today unless that person happens to be 2000+ years old. So does that mean I'm going to burn in hell? If you're right then yes, but if none of the organized religions are right, then no. Mike Poz
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Judah Himango wrote:
If some of the paths -- ways of living your life -- be that religion or just plain ethics, lead to an evil way of live, a way of life that is not God-honoring, then we can't say that all ways are acceptable.
This seems to be saying that unless people accept your god in your way they aren't leading acceptable lives.
Judah Himango wrote:
Those who just do whatever's right in their own eyes live a life free to do whatever they please.
Actually, in civilized society they don't. There are laws that exist. However, those laws have to be common sense and not religion based if you expect diverse peoples to accept them. Maybe when you were conducting your hedonistic experiment, you were too young to exercise common sense?
Judah Himango wrote:
I don't buy the nonsense that everyone's way to God is alright, but at least the disagreeing can be done with respect and without backstabbing and hatred; we should leave leave those things to the lawless, godless folks.
There you go again equating godless to lawless and seem to be saying to be a good person we'd better come around to your way of thinking. To me, that's pretty insulting. The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance. -- modified at 20:51 Wednesday 14th June, 2006
Legal laws do not govern morality, however. One can be perfectly legal and be morally detestable: Take the UN for instance. The whole body has sat idly for so long while genocides are going on in Africa; and this is not the first time! Perfectly legal, perfectly immoral. I could come up with a thousand other instances; it is a mistake to equal legality with morality and ethics. When I spoke of law, the meaning is God-law, not man-law. God-law is boiled down to 2 laws on which all the other laws hang[^].
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Fisticuffs wrote:
To kill someone to save a life is a sum of zero.
I sure am glad that our military and police forces dont think that way. Stand rigid for the next battle Peace means reloading your guns The love for life is all hatred in disguise - Dimmu Borgir
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Judah Himango wrote:
For people that don't believe in God, such as yourself, is there real good living in your life? Are you doing whatever you see fit, or do you have personal rules that guide you? If you've personal rules, how do those rules stand up when tested?
As far as my conduct with others goes i'm a reciprocal altruist who starts out nice and will attempt to resolve conflict in a reasonable manner. I often wish I did volunteer work, and I donate money to causes that I believe do good. I do not (probably could not) live my life for others in the true Christian or Buddhist sense though, and I don't think many believers do either. I am far too selfish. Some people seem more capable of acts of total selflessness than others and I do not believe that can be driven purely by faith. Having been living in sin for a couple of years I can discuss the porn issue with some experience. As a single man, I used pornography pretty heavily. Now my context has changed, I do not to anywhere near the same extent and feel guilt when I do. This is due to empathy with my girlfriend, not an absolute prohibition. I know people who mutually use porn in their relationships, for them it is a different choice. Whether it's conductive to a healthy long term relationship in those circumstances, I can't really say, not enough evidence, not my relationship. I certainly don't have any moral qualms about watching explicit (not porn in the commercial sense) films with my girlfriend, as its the furtive masturbation that's the moral issue, not the pixels. Can I live up to my ideals? Generaly not. Which might imply that I at least try to set them higher than the way I know that I am inclined to behave :) Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Ryan Roberts wrote:
and I don't think many believers do either
Very true what you say about living for others. I have trouble with it myself. It's very tough in practice; it takes a lot of humility, I can tell you that. It's tough, and I'm not very good at it yet. :) As for pornography, you know, it has nearly ruined my life on several occassions. Just be careful, my friend. Maybe it's not the same for all guys, but for me, it kept getting worse and worse with myself needing more and longer "highs" each time. Like an addictive drug, really. It truely has been a God-intervening-and-setting-things-straight that scooped me out of that mess. That's why I'm so crazy about God all the time, he's saved my life from me throwing it away. Now that I'm living a cleaner life and he set me up with so many good things, wow, it's like a fresh cool wind blowing into a hot house, God has cleared the air for me personally. Praise God for that, man! :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Judah Himango wrote:
There is law which we say to be God's Law; something Messiah boiled all down into 2 laws: love God, and love others. Those are not man-made. Of course, you might believe them to be man made; it's all differences stemming from belief versus disbelief.
The biggest problem I have with organized religion is that most of the laws that are preached to us by so called "men of God" are man's interpretation of God's law as filtered through the interpreter's eyes, wants, needs and beliefs (and sometimes lies!). Many organized religions (and that's what this whole thread boils down to, that organized religions are causing most of the world's problems because of the inherent intolerence against other organized religions) say "our way is the one true religion and all the rest shall be damned" when MY belief is that God will accept us regardless of which religion we follow as long as the basic tenents of that belief are to do no harm. Do I believe in a supreme being? Yes. Do I believe I have to get together with a bunch of like minded people in worship? No, because it's between me and and God and nobody has the right to come between us. Do I believe that Jesus was God's son made flesh? I have to say yes simply because according to what I understand from the bible we're all God's children. Was there something special about him? I can say it's possible but I don't know with any level of certainty (hense the lower case "h" in the previous sentence). And quite honestly, neither does anyone else alive today unless that person happens to be 2000+ years old. So does that mean I'm going to burn in hell? If you're right then yes, but if none of the organized religions are right, then no. Mike Poz
I sympathize with your views on organized religion. I'm not a fan of it myself, been burned too much. Too many people use religion as a way to control others and "put them in their place". I'm more focused, at least at this point in my life, on a life of living for God and others, with a real relationship with God. I'm just trying to live a Godly life best I see fit. I also agree we are all God's children no matter what religion we adhere to. That's why I'm pretty set on getting along with people like Adnan, no matter how much we tend to disagree. For me, I'm putting my bet on Jesus. I think he's proven himself to be the Messiah spoken of. But better yet, he lived and commanded us to live the most Godly way I've ever heard of: to love God and love other people. I don't think there's any better way to live your life, so I'm betting my life wholly on this Messiah fellow. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Judah Himango wrote:
For people that don't believe in God, such as yourself, is there real good living in your life? Are you doing whatever you see fit, or do you have personal rules that guide you? If you've personal rules, how do those rules stand up when tested?
As far as my conduct with others goes i'm a reciprocal altruist who starts out nice and will attempt to resolve conflict in a reasonable manner. I often wish I did volunteer work, and I donate money to causes that I believe do good. I do not (probably could not) live my life for others in the true Christian or Buddhist sense though, and I don't think many believers do either. I am far too selfish. Some people seem more capable of acts of total selflessness than others and I do not believe that can be driven purely by faith. Having been living in sin for a couple of years I can discuss the porn issue with some experience. As a single man, I used pornography pretty heavily. Now my context has changed, I do not to anywhere near the same extent and feel guilt when I do. This is due to empathy with my girlfriend, not an absolute prohibition. I know people who mutually use porn in their relationships, for them it is a different choice. Whether it's conductive to a healthy long term relationship in those circumstances, I can't really say, not enough evidence, not my relationship. I certainly don't have any moral qualms about watching explicit (not porn in the commercial sense) films with my girlfriend, as its the furtive masturbation that's the moral issue, not the pixels. Can I live up to my ideals? Generaly not. Which might imply that I at least try to set them higher than the way I know that I am inclined to behave :) Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Can I live up to my ideals? Generaly not. Which might imply that I at least try to set them higher than the way I know that I am inclined to behave
I would say that no one here can live up to their ideal. The Apostle Paul called himself wretched, and the chiefest of sinners. He said that his spirit wanted him to do what was right, but his flesh was constantly in conflict making him do the opposite. Yet, he praised Christ for his forgiveness in spite of our sinful nature. If Paul struggled with sin and still won the race, it gives me all the more confidence that I can do it too. But only in Christ is it fully possible to win.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
I sympathize with your views on organized religion. I'm not a fan of it myself, been burned too much. Too many people use religion as a way to control others and "put them in their place". I'm more focused, at least at this point in my life, on a life of living for God and others, with a real relationship with God. I'm just trying to live a Godly life best I see fit. I also agree we are all God's children no matter what religion we adhere to. That's why I'm pretty set on getting along with people like Adnan, no matter how much we tend to disagree. For me, I'm putting my bet on Jesus. I think he's proven himself to be the Messiah spoken of. But better yet, he lived and commanded us to live the most Godly way I've ever heard of: to love God and love other people. I don't think there's any better way to live your life, so I'm betting my life wholly on this Messiah fellow. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
For me, I'm putting my bet on Jesus. I think he's proven himself to be the Messiah spoken of. But better yet, he lived and commanded us to live the most Godly way I've ever heard of: to love God and love other people. I don't think there's any better way to live your life, so I'm betting my life wholly on this Messiah fellow.
That was actually one of the commands of Moses in Deuteronomy. Jesus called it the greatest commandment.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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Score: 1.0 (1 vote). wrote:
I sure am glad that our military and police forces dont think that way.
Not a fan of Christianity, huh? - F
Fisticuffs wrote:
Not a fan of Christianity, huh?
No, i am not a fan of you. Stand rigid for the next battle Peace means reloading your guns The love for life is all hatred in disguise - Dimmu Borgir
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Not only muslims ..Many people became happy since they dont like the polocies of america.And anyone can undderstand the heroism attained by osama or saddam since they are figthing against the mighty USA. Nobody realizing the fact that Islamic terrorism is only growing and if USA stand in forefornt it would never come to an end.Becoz USA is not an Islamic state and their fight would be viwed as fight against Islam and Bin Laden is cleverly adorning the attire of the saviour of Islam. If not Osama there would be some X or Y becoz the world is full of those creatures who has belief in none. if we truely wants to put a fullstop to Islamic terrorism ,the fight agaist it should be started by Islams .
jithAtran - ii wrote:
if we truely wants to put a fullstop to Islamic terrorism ,the fight agaist it should be started by Islams .
The thing is, others aren't willing to wait for that. I haven't heard of a single globally vocal group of Muslims that have been willing to take a stand against terrorism. And that is what millions of non-muslims don't understand, and frankly are a bit scared of. BW
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
-- Steven Wright -
Legal laws do not govern morality, however. One can be perfectly legal and be morally detestable: Take the UN for instance. The whole body has sat idly for so long while genocides are going on in Africa; and this is not the first time! Perfectly legal, perfectly immoral. I could come up with a thousand other instances; it is a mistake to equal legality with morality and ethics. When I spoke of law, the meaning is God-law, not man-law. God-law is boiled down to 2 laws on which all the other laws hang[^].
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
it is a mistake to equal legality with morality and ethics
I'm well aware that morality and legality are different and in most cases should remain so. Efforts to legislate morality usually fall flat on their faces. Ethics on the other hand are the basis of the legal system. How do civilized people of differing moralities coexist peacefully. It isn't by trying to legislate one group's morality down other's throats.
Judah Himango wrote:
When I spoke of law, the meaning is God-law, not man-law.
While god-law may be important to you, there are quite a few people who get along just fine without it. The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance.
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Judah Himango wrote:
For me, I'm putting my bet on Jesus. I think he's proven himself to be the Messiah spoken of. But better yet, he lived and commanded us to live the most Godly way I've ever heard of: to love God and love other people. I don't think there's any better way to live your life, so I'm betting my life wholly on this Messiah fellow.
That was actually one of the commands of Moses in Deuteronomy. Jesus called it the greatest commandment.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogYes, that's right! Both 2 laws he mentioned are from the Torah. In fact, the first law he mentions (the one about loving God) is something that is recited daily by us Jews. I'm convinced Jesus didn't come to start a new religion, but only was continuing on in the original plan all along. Instead of creating a whole new set of religion rules, He took the rules God had already setup, and put them in their proper place. He said in one piece, "You all know of the law that goes, 'Do not commit adultery', but I'm telling you that even if you look at a woman and lust after her in your heart, you've committed adultery in your heart." The Messiah took the Law code and applied it to hearts, instead of just outward appearances as the Jewish leaders were doing at the time. This falls right in line with what Jeremiah predicted[^]. :cool:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Judah Himango wrote:
it is a mistake to equal legality with morality and ethics
I'm well aware that morality and legality are different and in most cases should remain so. Efforts to legislate morality usually fall flat on their faces. Ethics on the other hand are the basis of the legal system. How do civilized people of differing moralities coexist peacefully. It isn't by trying to legislate one group's morality down other's throats.
Judah Himango wrote:
When I spoke of law, the meaning is God-law, not man-law.
While god-law may be important to you, there are quite a few people who get along just fine without it. The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance.
Tim Craig wrote:
there are quite a few people who get along just fine without it.
If God-law boils down to loving other people, I'm not so sure we'd get along just fine without it.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Fisticuffs wrote:
Not a fan of Christianity, huh?
No, i am not a fan of you. Stand rigid for the next battle Peace means reloading your guns The love for life is all hatred in disguise - Dimmu Borgir
Score: 1.0 (1 vote). wrote:
No, i am not a fan of you.
Does this mean you no longer wish to subscribe to the bi-weekly "I Love Fisticuffs" newsletter, containing great tips and tricks on how to remove troublesome stains by using nothing more than an undeserved sense of moral superiority? But you'll forfeit your subscription fee!!!! Act now!!! And you wrote such a lovely song for the last issue, too: Oh Fisticuffs, I Need Your Approval For I Am Misguided Without Your Awesome Insight Please Validate My Existence With You're Internet Powers By Pumpkinhead, Age 15 or something - F
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There are many. I don't have it readily available, but I asked if he condemned suicide bombers. His response (after a week of dodging) was that he condemns suicide bombers...because they target Muslims in mosques. He had a long drawn out explanation as to how the Quran states that it's OK to kill over "corruption in the land" yada yada yada that justified terrorism.
are you being a moron?you didnt need to navigate much to answer your question directly and you are saying that i didnt answer you?tsk tsk get a life!!
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Ah.. so it was me misinterpreting him. How ironic. :)
-- 100% natural. No superstitious additives.
yeah shit happens :rolleyes:
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Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
authorites from christianity islam and judaism are keep in touch and trying to understand each other's faith and also discovering similarties between all abrahamic faith so i have no worries that these 3 mentioned religions are not compatible
There is no way that these three religions can be compatible. Jesus is the son of god, or He isn't. People who want to achieve compatibility can only do so by abandoning their own faith. The mistake is to confuse compatibility with understanding. I think you're wrong ( sorry :-) ), but that doesn't mean I hate you, or deny you the right to your beliefs. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
by compatible doesnt mean any sort of merger.What i mean compatibility here is the God itself and Jesus(AS) and others who came before Him like Jacob,David etc etc.I assume all of mentioned people are considered respectable in both christianity and judaism and I already mentioned that every prophet from Adam to Jesus before MUhammad is respectable for us.As i said only dispute is status of Jesus in different religions but not His own persoonality.Same goes with other prophets as well.So if all religions just start respecting these people then things could go well without hitting each others faith.
Christian Graus wrote:
but that doesn't mean I hate you, or deny you the right to your beliefs.
No problem you can hate me freely.I didnt take it as insult =)
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