Apple iPod Sweatshops?
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Some may say (as Apple claims) that it did not know, but isn't that even scarier, that a company thier size would not know what goes on to manufacture their product? Kind of along the thought that if anyone in a company does not do their job, it is direct the fault of the leader (president, owner, etc) as their job is to ensure the people directly under them can do their job properly, and thus those directly under them whom they are responsible, continuing all the way down the hill. Anyway, 15 hours per day for $50 per month! Coming to a developer community near you in the future ;) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/15/AR2006061501898.html[^] Rocky <>< Latest Post: Visual Studio 2005 Standard, whats missing? Blog: www.RockyMoore.com/TheCoder/[^]
Rocky Moore wrote:
Some may say (as Apple claims) that it did not know
Well, first off, they must have their head in the ground then. The assumption I make with any product coming from China is that it's made in a sweatshop. "Prove me wrong" is my attitude.
Rocky Moore wrote:
that a company their size would not know what goes on to manufacture their product?
What does size have to do with it? Frankly, I'm surprised you [edit]Sorry, didn't mean YOU[/edit] anyone, as an individual, can live in this country and not know about Chinese, Mexican, Thai, etc., sweat shops, sex shops, and so forth. And you don't have to go out of the country either--there's numerous news stories about sweat shops in good ol' Los Angeles, USA. Is it Apple's responsibility? Why should it be? It's the consumer that demands the product, after all. Especially young consumers, who don't have a friggin' clue, and their parents, who would prefer to remain clueless. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson -- modified at 19:18 Sunday 18th June, 2006
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Some may say (as Apple claims) that it did not know, but isn't that even scarier, that a company thier size would not know what goes on to manufacture their product? Kind of along the thought that if anyone in a company does not do their job, it is direct the fault of the leader (president, owner, etc) as their job is to ensure the people directly under them can do their job properly, and thus those directly under them whom they are responsible, continuing all the way down the hill. Anyway, 15 hours per day for $50 per month! Coming to a developer community near you in the future ;) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/15/AR2006061501898.html[^] Rocky <>< Latest Post: Visual Studio 2005 Standard, whats missing? Blog: www.RockyMoore.com/TheCoder/[^]
A company the size of Apple has a very clsoe relationship with the manufacturer. I spent 6 years at Celestica (one of the big 3 contract manufacturers) so they knew. Hon Hai isn't exaclty the top end of contract manufacturers either. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
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Yeah, and my MuVo was built in a workers paradise.... Seriously, I'd love for every person in the world to be on a high wage and to live in good conditions, but the truth is that our prosperity is built on the fact that most of our goods are made in places where people work for close to nothing. I wonder if the people who wrote the article would buy an iPod if they cost $4000, with all the extra money flowing into the pockets and conditions of the people who make them ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
I agree with your opinion. The fact is that most of the things we eat, wear, and use nowadays are made in third-world countries where people live in dirt/cardboard houses and have barely enough to eat everyday from their daily wages (don't give me the crap that the living costs are lower, their wages are lower than standard even there). Their labor has become a daily part of first-world countries lives. If anybody really wants to support this 100 percent then grow your own vegetables (don't buy fertilizers, they might be imported crap, use your own waste), raise your own sheeps (feed them grass only, to keep you from buying cheap-labor food), knit your own jumpers, make your own sandals & shoes (no Nike or Polo for you from Pakistan or Indonesia). No iPod, no PCs, laptops or any cool gadgets (Hey, the parts are made in China). Maybe you can buy everything from Japan. It only costs 2-3x as much, but I'm sure that's a salve for your conscience. Hypocrites. "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner" - Ross Edbert Sydney, Australia
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I agree with your opinion. The fact is that most of the things we eat, wear, and use nowadays are made in third-world countries where people live in dirt/cardboard houses and have barely enough to eat everyday from their daily wages (don't give me the crap that the living costs are lower, their wages are lower than standard even there). Their labor has become a daily part of first-world countries lives. If anybody really wants to support this 100 percent then grow your own vegetables (don't buy fertilizers, they might be imported crap, use your own waste), raise your own sheeps (feed them grass only, to keep you from buying cheap-labor food), knit your own jumpers, make your own sandals & shoes (no Nike or Polo for you from Pakistan or Indonesia). No iPod, no PCs, laptops or any cool gadgets (Hey, the parts are made in China). Maybe you can buy everything from Japan. It only costs 2-3x as much, but I'm sure that's a salve for your conscience. Hypocrites. "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner" - Ross Edbert Sydney, Australia
Edbert P wrote:
grow your own vegetables (don't buy fertilizers, they might be imported crap, use your own waste),
check
Edbert P wrote:
raise your own sheeps (feed them grass only, to keep you from buying cheap-labor food),
check
Edbert P wrote:
knit your own jumpers, make your own sandals & shoes (no Nike or Polo for you from Pakistan or Indonesia).
well, I work from home, so I wear pyjamas most of the time, does that help ?
Edbert P wrote:
No iPod, no PCs, laptops or any cool gadgets (Hey, the parts are made in China).
damn, damn, damn.... Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Rocky Moore wrote:
Some may say (as Apple claims) that it did not know
Well, first off, they must have their head in the ground then. The assumption I make with any product coming from China is that it's made in a sweatshop. "Prove me wrong" is my attitude.
Rocky Moore wrote:
that a company their size would not know what goes on to manufacture their product?
What does size have to do with it? Frankly, I'm surprised you [edit]Sorry, didn't mean YOU[/edit] anyone, as an individual, can live in this country and not know about Chinese, Mexican, Thai, etc., sweat shops, sex shops, and so forth. And you don't have to go out of the country either--there's numerous news stories about sweat shops in good ol' Los Angeles, USA. Is it Apple's responsibility? Why should it be? It's the consumer that demands the product, after all. Especially young consumers, who don't have a friggin' clue, and their parents, who would prefer to remain clueless. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson -- modified at 19:18 Sunday 18th June, 2006
Marc Clifton wrote:
Is it Apple's responsibility?
Well, they do have a measure of control, but the truth is, if they wanted to exercise it, they'd have the things made in the USA, and probably sell about 12 of them ( to the 12 Apple zealots who would buy anything with an Apple logo on it ). Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Some may say (as Apple claims) that it did not know, but isn't that even scarier, that a company thier size would not know what goes on to manufacture their product? Kind of along the thought that if anyone in a company does not do their job, it is direct the fault of the leader (president, owner, etc) as their job is to ensure the people directly under them can do their job properly, and thus those directly under them whom they are responsible, continuing all the way down the hill. Anyway, 15 hours per day for $50 per month! Coming to a developer community near you in the future ;) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/15/AR2006061501898.html[^] Rocky <>< Latest Post: Visual Studio 2005 Standard, whats missing? Blog: www.RockyMoore.com/TheCoder/[^]
And if you pan Apple for this kind of behaviour (which I certianly would), be sure to add Wal Mart, Nike, et al to the list as well - don't single just Apple out for this. It sucks, and it's one of the reason's I won't buy anything from Walmart. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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Some may say (as Apple claims) that it did not know, but isn't that even scarier, that a company thier size would not know what goes on to manufacture their product? Kind of along the thought that if anyone in a company does not do their job, it is direct the fault of the leader (president, owner, etc) as their job is to ensure the people directly under them can do their job properly, and thus those directly under them whom they are responsible, continuing all the way down the hill. Anyway, 15 hours per day for $50 per month! Coming to a developer community near you in the future ;) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/15/AR2006061501898.html[^] Rocky <>< Latest Post: Visual Studio 2005 Standard, whats missing? Blog: www.RockyMoore.com/TheCoder/[^]
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Is it Apple's responsibility?
Well, they do have a measure of control, but the truth is, if they wanted to exercise it, they'd have the things made in the USA, and probably sell about 12 of them ( to the 12 Apple zealots who would buy anything with an Apple logo on it ). Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
and probably sell about 12 of them ( to the 12 Apple zealots who would buy anything with an Apple logo on it ).
There are twelve of them? HUH? Twelve, well I'm impressed, their numbers are sure growing... :)
I'd love to help, but unfortunatley I have prior commitments monitoring the length of my grass. :Andrew Bleakley:
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Yeah, and my MuVo was built in a workers paradise.... Seriously, I'd love for every person in the world to be on a high wage and to live in good conditions, but the truth is that our prosperity is built on the fact that most of our goods are made in places where people work for close to nothing. I wonder if the people who wrote the article would buy an iPod if they cost $4000, with all the extra money flowing into the pockets and conditions of the people who make them ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Oh come on. These companies make milions of dollars in profit and you mean to tell me they couldn't afford let's say $100.000 to have their employees from these countries have a decent life by their country's term. That's just crap. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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Yeah, and my MuVo was built in a workers paradise.... Seriously, I'd love for every person in the world to be on a high wage and to live in good conditions, but the truth is that our prosperity is built on the fact that most of our goods are made in places where people work for close to nothing. I wonder if the people who wrote the article would buy an iPod if they cost $4000, with all the extra money flowing into the pockets and conditions of the people who make them ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
They pay them that much because they know that to those people is even that much or no money at all. So what choice can they make? regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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Rocky Moore wrote:
Some may say (as Apple claims) that it did not know
Well, first off, they must have their head in the ground then. The assumption I make with any product coming from China is that it's made in a sweatshop. "Prove me wrong" is my attitude.
Rocky Moore wrote:
that a company their size would not know what goes on to manufacture their product?
What does size have to do with it? Frankly, I'm surprised you [edit]Sorry, didn't mean YOU[/edit] anyone, as an individual, can live in this country and not know about Chinese, Mexican, Thai, etc., sweat shops, sex shops, and so forth. And you don't have to go out of the country either--there's numerous news stories about sweat shops in good ol' Los Angeles, USA. Is it Apple's responsibility? Why should it be? It's the consumer that demands the product, after all. Especially young consumers, who don't have a friggin' clue, and their parents, who would prefer to remain clueless. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson -- modified at 19:18 Sunday 18th June, 2006
Marc Clifton wrote:
Is it Apple's responsibility?
Yes! They want to claim they have no knowledge and that is the problem. If they want to pay somone $2 a year to make them, then that is their own business, but they should at least of the round hangy things to admit it! Rocky <>< Latest Post: Visual Studio 2005 Standard, whats missing? Blog: www.RockyMoore.com/TheCoder/[^]
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Oh come on. These companies make milions of dollars in profit and you mean to tell me they couldn't afford let's say $100.000 to have their employees from these countries have a decent life by their country's term. That's just crap. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
What I mean is, if you pay the workers more, that get compounded in the final price, because Apple probably sets a percentage they want to make, the wholesaler does the same, and so does the retailer. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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And if you pan Apple for this kind of behaviour (which I certianly would), be sure to add Wal Mart, Nike, et al to the list as well - don't single just Apple out for this. It sucks, and it's one of the reason's I won't buy anything from Walmart. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
Jim Crafton wrote:
be sure to add Wal Mart, Nike, et al to the list as well - don't single just Apple out for this.
Actually, I am not compaining about them doing it, the problem is that they do not want to admit they are just evil greedy scum sucking .. @*#&s8sd8@. If they do it, they should admit it and not just play the pass-the-buck garbage. Can you imagine what would happen if the USA had a skirmish with China and all imports stopped? There would be an up side, Wal-marts would all be closed the next day as thy would have no products to sell ;) The USA has dug a big hole that I do not see a way out of.
Jim Crafton wrote:
It sucks, and it's one of the reason's I won't buy anything from Walmart.
For me, it is not so much that they buy products to sell which are made in sweatshop type environments, as the same products are sold by most retailers and I do not see any way of that stopping since the public keeps buying it. The major point I have against Walmart (and the reason I will not shop there) is simply, they are forcing American businesses to sell below what it costs to produce for the sole purpose of driving their manufacturing overseas. Companies of this nature that work against teh USA should themselves be driven off our land! Rocky <>< Latest Post: Visual Studio 2005 Standard, whats missing? Blog: www.RockyMoore.com/TheCoder/[^]
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What I mean is, if you pay the workers more, that get compounded in the final price, because Apple probably sets a percentage they want to make, the wholesaler does the same, and so does the retailer. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Yes, but let's not forget we're talking about 50$/person/month here. Probably another 50$ would be a blessing for those workers. Now, how much could the price jump? I'm figuring it's not that much and I'm sure they could cut their profits by a tiny bit and not even raise prices on the products. But of course, the question they ask themlselves is "Why should we?. Heck I'm going to buy my son a new Porsche. F*** those chinese." I consider that everyone who works should have the right to a decent living. Especially those that do it for 15 hours a day. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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Yes, but let's not forget we're talking about 50$/person/month here. Probably another 50$ would be a blessing for those workers. Now, how much could the price jump? I'm figuring it's not that much and I'm sure they could cut their profits by a tiny bit and not even raise prices on the products. But of course, the question they ask themlselves is "Why should we?. Heck I'm going to buy my son a new Porsche. F*** those chinese." I consider that everyone who works should have the right to a decent living. Especially those that do it for 15 hours a day. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
I don't disagree, but what these companies probably fear is that if they pay them more, standards will improve, prices will go up and they'll want even more, then the whole house of cards falls down for them Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Jim Crafton wrote:
be sure to add Wal Mart, Nike, et al to the list as well - don't single just Apple out for this.
Actually, I am not compaining about them doing it, the problem is that they do not want to admit they are just evil greedy scum sucking .. @*#&s8sd8@. If they do it, they should admit it and not just play the pass-the-buck garbage. Can you imagine what would happen if the USA had a skirmish with China and all imports stopped? There would be an up side, Wal-marts would all be closed the next day as thy would have no products to sell ;) The USA has dug a big hole that I do not see a way out of.
Jim Crafton wrote:
It sucks, and it's one of the reason's I won't buy anything from Walmart.
For me, it is not so much that they buy products to sell which are made in sweatshop type environments, as the same products are sold by most retailers and I do not see any way of that stopping since the public keeps buying it. The major point I have against Walmart (and the reason I will not shop there) is simply, they are forcing American businesses to sell below what it costs to produce for the sole purpose of driving their manufacturing overseas. Companies of this nature that work against teh USA should themselves be driven off our land! Rocky <>< Latest Post: Visual Studio 2005 Standard, whats missing? Blog: www.RockyMoore.com/TheCoder/[^]
Somehow I think if Walmart (or equivalent Coles, K-Mart and Woolworths here in Sydney) close down, there will be a flood of panic and majority of people will start stocking things for fear of running out / rising prices. I can't remember buying toilet tissues from anywhere else but Coles and would be hard pressed to figure out where else to buy aside from 7-11. But perhaps if they close down there will be plenty small shops flourishing instead, where you know the shopkeepers and they know you by first name. "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner" - Ross Edbert Sydney, Australia
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I don't disagree, but what these companies probably fear is that if they pay them more, standards will improve, prices will go up and they'll want even more, then the whole house of cards falls down for them Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
That's no way to go through life. I live in Romania and the poverty in this country is just growing everyday. The middle class almost dissapeard. There are people that are extremly rich and there are the poor that barely afford food. Guess who's working for the rich? I tell you, sometimes I have the feeling slavery it's comming back. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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That's no way to go through life. I live in Romania and the poverty in this country is just growing everyday. The middle class almost dissapeard. There are people that are extremly rich and there are the poor that barely afford food. Guess who's working for the rich? I tell you, sometimes I have the feeling slavery it's comming back. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
The problem of poverty and slavery is directly linked to the lack of liberty. In China, as in Romania, there is little personal freedom. There is a lot of red tape, making it virtually impossible for the common man to start his own business. As a result, those individuals are reduced to work for large corporations paying very little salaries. The solution to this poverty problem is reducing the red tape and bureaucracy. To be legal in China, it takes 11 procedures to open a business and a minimum capital of $36,245.46 (USD-equivalent). Think about how the common Chinese citizen can afford to start his business if he earns only a few thousand dollars each year. In the US, starting a business requires 5 steps (Register the business, Apply for firm IDs for tax and employer purposes, Register online for sales tax, Arrange for unemployment insurance, register for worker's compensation insurance) and a capital of $210.00. In Canada, there are only 2 steps (Incorporate the company, Register for GST) and a capital of $127.44 (USD-equivalent). Source: http://rru.worldbank.org/DoingBusiness/Methodology/EntryRegulations.aspx (2003). Guess which countries people are the most prosper? The more businesses, the more employment and the less poverty.
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The problem of poverty and slavery is directly linked to the lack of liberty. In China, as in Romania, there is little personal freedom. There is a lot of red tape, making it virtually impossible for the common man to start his own business. As a result, those individuals are reduced to work for large corporations paying very little salaries. The solution to this poverty problem is reducing the red tape and bureaucracy. To be legal in China, it takes 11 procedures to open a business and a minimum capital of $36,245.46 (USD-equivalent). Think about how the common Chinese citizen can afford to start his business if he earns only a few thousand dollars each year. In the US, starting a business requires 5 steps (Register the business, Apply for firm IDs for tax and employer purposes, Register online for sales tax, Arrange for unemployment insurance, register for worker's compensation insurance) and a capital of $210.00. In Canada, there are only 2 steps (Incorporate the company, Register for GST) and a capital of $127.44 (USD-equivalent). Source: http://rru.worldbank.org/DoingBusiness/Methodology/EntryRegulations.aspx (2003). Guess which countries people are the most prosper? The more businesses, the more employment and the less poverty.
How about this concept. Money is a limited resource. There is only so much that the economy can support. When you have companies like Exxon with $35 billion in PROFIT.. that's profit, not revenues, then you gotta wonder how poor people in any country could have a chance. Not to mention Wal-Mart. Its the idea that companies have to GROW continually, instead of finding an equalibrium. Its written into the laws thanks to the stock market. There is no way for poor people to get a piece of that pie if large corporations and banks are allowing it to collect dust sitting in some vault for the sake of research and development which seems to be their need for so much profit. Which in turn is to support their addiction to growth. How can all companies continually grow in a finite limited space? Rhetorical. This statement is false.
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How about this concept. Money is a limited resource. There is only so much that the economy can support. When you have companies like Exxon with $35 billion in PROFIT.. that's profit, not revenues, then you gotta wonder how poor people in any country could have a chance. Not to mention Wal-Mart. Its the idea that companies have to GROW continually, instead of finding an equalibrium. Its written into the laws thanks to the stock market. There is no way for poor people to get a piece of that pie if large corporations and banks are allowing it to collect dust sitting in some vault for the sake of research and development which seems to be their need for so much profit. Which in turn is to support their addiction to growth. How can all companies continually grow in a finite limited space? Rhetorical. This statement is false.
For those wishing a mini-tutorial on economics, as this chap sorely needs, I highly recommend these Dr. Walter Williams (George Mason University) lessons: http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/misc/econcitizen/index.html There are ten lessons, about 700 words each. Thomas Sowell at http://www.tsowell.com/ is equally recommended. "The study of history is a powerful antidote to contemporary arrogance. It is humbling to discover how many of our glib assumptions, which seem to us novel and plausible, have been tested before, not once but many times and in innumerable guises; and discovered to be, at great human cost, wholly false." --Paul Johnson