Apple iPod Sweatshops?
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Yes, but let's not forget we're talking about 50$/person/month here. Probably another 50$ would be a blessing for those workers. Now, how much could the price jump? I'm figuring it's not that much and I'm sure they could cut their profits by a tiny bit and not even raise prices on the products. But of course, the question they ask themlselves is "Why should we?. Heck I'm going to buy my son a new Porsche. F*** those chinese." I consider that everyone who works should have the right to a decent living. Especially those that do it for 15 hours a day. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
I don't disagree, but what these companies probably fear is that if they pay them more, standards will improve, prices will go up and they'll want even more, then the whole house of cards falls down for them Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Jim Crafton wrote:
be sure to add Wal Mart, Nike, et al to the list as well - don't single just Apple out for this.
Actually, I am not compaining about them doing it, the problem is that they do not want to admit they are just evil greedy scum sucking .. @*#&s8sd8@. If they do it, they should admit it and not just play the pass-the-buck garbage. Can you imagine what would happen if the USA had a skirmish with China and all imports stopped? There would be an up side, Wal-marts would all be closed the next day as thy would have no products to sell ;) The USA has dug a big hole that I do not see a way out of.
Jim Crafton wrote:
It sucks, and it's one of the reason's I won't buy anything from Walmart.
For me, it is not so much that they buy products to sell which are made in sweatshop type environments, as the same products are sold by most retailers and I do not see any way of that stopping since the public keeps buying it. The major point I have against Walmart (and the reason I will not shop there) is simply, they are forcing American businesses to sell below what it costs to produce for the sole purpose of driving their manufacturing overseas. Companies of this nature that work against teh USA should themselves be driven off our land! Rocky <>< Latest Post: Visual Studio 2005 Standard, whats missing? Blog: www.RockyMoore.com/TheCoder/[^]
Somehow I think if Walmart (or equivalent Coles, K-Mart and Woolworths here in Sydney) close down, there will be a flood of panic and majority of people will start stocking things for fear of running out / rising prices. I can't remember buying toilet tissues from anywhere else but Coles and would be hard pressed to figure out where else to buy aside from 7-11. But perhaps if they close down there will be plenty small shops flourishing instead, where you know the shopkeepers and they know you by first name. "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner" - Ross Edbert Sydney, Australia
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I don't disagree, but what these companies probably fear is that if they pay them more, standards will improve, prices will go up and they'll want even more, then the whole house of cards falls down for them Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
That's no way to go through life. I live in Romania and the poverty in this country is just growing everyday. The middle class almost dissapeard. There are people that are extremly rich and there are the poor that barely afford food. Guess who's working for the rich? I tell you, sometimes I have the feeling slavery it's comming back. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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That's no way to go through life. I live in Romania and the poverty in this country is just growing everyday. The middle class almost dissapeard. There are people that are extremly rich and there are the poor that barely afford food. Guess who's working for the rich? I tell you, sometimes I have the feeling slavery it's comming back. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
The problem of poverty and slavery is directly linked to the lack of liberty. In China, as in Romania, there is little personal freedom. There is a lot of red tape, making it virtually impossible for the common man to start his own business. As a result, those individuals are reduced to work for large corporations paying very little salaries. The solution to this poverty problem is reducing the red tape and bureaucracy. To be legal in China, it takes 11 procedures to open a business and a minimum capital of $36,245.46 (USD-equivalent). Think about how the common Chinese citizen can afford to start his business if he earns only a few thousand dollars each year. In the US, starting a business requires 5 steps (Register the business, Apply for firm IDs for tax and employer purposes, Register online for sales tax, Arrange for unemployment insurance, register for worker's compensation insurance) and a capital of $210.00. In Canada, there are only 2 steps (Incorporate the company, Register for GST) and a capital of $127.44 (USD-equivalent). Source: http://rru.worldbank.org/DoingBusiness/Methodology/EntryRegulations.aspx (2003). Guess which countries people are the most prosper? The more businesses, the more employment and the less poverty.
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The problem of poverty and slavery is directly linked to the lack of liberty. In China, as in Romania, there is little personal freedom. There is a lot of red tape, making it virtually impossible for the common man to start his own business. As a result, those individuals are reduced to work for large corporations paying very little salaries. The solution to this poverty problem is reducing the red tape and bureaucracy. To be legal in China, it takes 11 procedures to open a business and a minimum capital of $36,245.46 (USD-equivalent). Think about how the common Chinese citizen can afford to start his business if he earns only a few thousand dollars each year. In the US, starting a business requires 5 steps (Register the business, Apply for firm IDs for tax and employer purposes, Register online for sales tax, Arrange for unemployment insurance, register for worker's compensation insurance) and a capital of $210.00. In Canada, there are only 2 steps (Incorporate the company, Register for GST) and a capital of $127.44 (USD-equivalent). Source: http://rru.worldbank.org/DoingBusiness/Methodology/EntryRegulations.aspx (2003). Guess which countries people are the most prosper? The more businesses, the more employment and the less poverty.
How about this concept. Money is a limited resource. There is only so much that the economy can support. When you have companies like Exxon with $35 billion in PROFIT.. that's profit, not revenues, then you gotta wonder how poor people in any country could have a chance. Not to mention Wal-Mart. Its the idea that companies have to GROW continually, instead of finding an equalibrium. Its written into the laws thanks to the stock market. There is no way for poor people to get a piece of that pie if large corporations and banks are allowing it to collect dust sitting in some vault for the sake of research and development which seems to be their need for so much profit. Which in turn is to support their addiction to growth. How can all companies continually grow in a finite limited space? Rhetorical. This statement is false.
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How about this concept. Money is a limited resource. There is only so much that the economy can support. When you have companies like Exxon with $35 billion in PROFIT.. that's profit, not revenues, then you gotta wonder how poor people in any country could have a chance. Not to mention Wal-Mart. Its the idea that companies have to GROW continually, instead of finding an equalibrium. Its written into the laws thanks to the stock market. There is no way for poor people to get a piece of that pie if large corporations and banks are allowing it to collect dust sitting in some vault for the sake of research and development which seems to be their need for so much profit. Which in turn is to support their addiction to growth. How can all companies continually grow in a finite limited space? Rhetorical. This statement is false.
For those wishing a mini-tutorial on economics, as this chap sorely needs, I highly recommend these Dr. Walter Williams (George Mason University) lessons: http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/misc/econcitizen/index.html There are ten lessons, about 700 words each. Thomas Sowell at http://www.tsowell.com/ is equally recommended. "The study of history is a powerful antidote to contemporary arrogance. It is humbling to discover how many of our glib assumptions, which seem to us novel and plausible, have been tested before, not once but many times and in innumerable guises; and discovered to be, at great human cost, wholly false." --Paul Johnson
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For those wishing a mini-tutorial on economics, as this chap sorely needs, I highly recommend these Dr. Walter Williams (George Mason University) lessons: http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/misc/econcitizen/index.html There are ten lessons, about 700 words each. Thomas Sowell at http://www.tsowell.com/ is equally recommended. "The study of history is a powerful antidote to contemporary arrogance. It is humbling to discover how many of our glib assumptions, which seem to us novel and plausible, have been tested before, not once but many times and in innumerable guises; and discovered to be, at great human cost, wholly false." --Paul Johnson
Whatever. My point still stands. I don't need the lessons. Thanks for taking my education in hand and pointing me to someone else's thought instead of engaging with your own. Money is still a finite resource. And if 5% control 95% or any ratio that's comparable, then there will always be poverty. The point being made earlier was that companies couldn't afford to sell their products at competitive prices if they paid livable wages. And that is total bull. Its the greed at the top that guides this practice. Take Wal-mart for instance, one of the largest grossing companies in existance and one of the most profitable as well. But they can't provide decent health care to their workers, so we end up subsidizing them through federal aid. Have you ever lived on the street, or experienced poverty and the struggle to get out from underneath? It sounds like this is typical armchair philosophy from the comfort of your well paid lifestyle. This statement is false.
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That's no way to go through life. I live in Romania and the poverty in this country is just growing everyday. The middle class almost dissapeard. There are people that are extremly rich and there are the poor that barely afford food. Guess who's working for the rich? I tell you, sometimes I have the feeling slavery it's comming back. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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Whatever. My point still stands. I don't need the lessons. Thanks for taking my education in hand and pointing me to someone else's thought instead of engaging with your own. Money is still a finite resource. And if 5% control 95% or any ratio that's comparable, then there will always be poverty. The point being made earlier was that companies couldn't afford to sell their products at competitive prices if they paid livable wages. And that is total bull. Its the greed at the top that guides this practice. Take Wal-mart for instance, one of the largest grossing companies in existance and one of the most profitable as well. But they can't provide decent health care to their workers, so we end up subsidizing them through federal aid. Have you ever lived on the street, or experienced poverty and the struggle to get out from underneath? It sounds like this is typical armchair philosophy from the comfort of your well paid lifestyle. This statement is false.
sheesh. who knew programmers had hearts? :) seriously though, i don't see much point in complaining about it as these things will never change. sure, they'll close down this one (which leaves the people you are so concerned about worse off as now they are unemployed), but what about the others that we are unaware of? they will continue to exist for as long as capitalism exists - should we put an end to that? i doubt you would honestly agree with me, but still i live in hope. ...yeah, i heard you.
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sheesh. who knew programmers had hearts? :) seriously though, i don't see much point in complaining about it as these things will never change. sure, they'll close down this one (which leaves the people you are so concerned about worse off as now they are unemployed), but what about the others that we are unaware of? they will continue to exist for as long as capitalism exists - should we put an end to that? i doubt you would honestly agree with me, but still i live in hope. ...yeah, i heard you.
WinxGuru wrote:
i don't see much point in complaining about it as these things will never change
Oh sure they would. In worse probably. Imagine this situation which is not far from the thruth. Walmart by execising its low prices makes it impossible for other US companies to sell their product because their production cost are greater the products from Walmart's shelves, so these companies would have to outsource even more work. Americans loose some jobs. Walmart grows into an empire and virtually drives out of business more american companies. More people loose their jobs. Now you got quite a few unemployees. Because of this, wages are gonna go down because there are a lot of people struggling to get a job, so the companies will sense this and take advantage of that. When you arrive in this situation there's really not much to do about it, and this is a well good step in becoming a second world country. If I were an american I wouldn't buy a thing from Walmart and other companies could could do a harm to my country. Especially because I can afford buying from other companies and support my country and eventually support me. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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For those wishing a mini-tutorial on economics, as this chap sorely needs, I highly recommend these Dr. Walter Williams (George Mason University) lessons: http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/misc/econcitizen/index.html There are ten lessons, about 700 words each. Thomas Sowell at http://www.tsowell.com/ is equally recommended. "The study of history is a powerful antidote to contemporary arrogance. It is humbling to discover how many of our glib assumptions, which seem to us novel and plausible, have been tested before, not once but many times and in innumerable guises; and discovered to be, at great human cost, wholly false." --Paul Johnson
The problem is worse than you think, people in those countries can't even go back to making a living doing their traditional work, for example, in Swaziland farmers are going out of business because of food dumping from the U.S., commercial farmers cannot sell their grain and subsistence farmers don't plant anything anymore because of "aid" from the US - which is just the US dumping maize that is a surplus because they subsidise their farmers to make them more competitive. What happens when the "aid" stops or the sweatshop closes? The workers are dis-empowered.
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WinxGuru wrote:
i don't see much point in complaining about it as these things will never change
Oh sure they would. In worse probably. Imagine this situation which is not far from the thruth. Walmart by execising its low prices makes it impossible for other US companies to sell their product because their production cost are greater the products from Walmart's shelves, so these companies would have to outsource even more work. Americans loose some jobs. Walmart grows into an empire and virtually drives out of business more american companies. More people loose their jobs. Now you got quite a few unemployees. Because of this, wages are gonna go down because there are a lot of people struggling to get a job, so the companies will sense this and take advantage of that. When you arrive in this situation there's really not much to do about it, and this is a well good step in becoming a second world country. If I were an american I wouldn't buy a thing from Walmart and other companies could could do a harm to my country. Especially because I can afford buying from other companies and support my country and eventually support me. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
Mircea Grelus wrote:
Imagine this situation which is not far from the thruth.
not far from the truth? ergo it's not true?
Mircea Grelus wrote:
Especially because I can afford buying from other companies and support my country and eventually support me.
how do you think it is that you and your country can afford these things? 3 little words that appear on almost everything from your sneakers to your refridgerator - MADE IN CHINA see what i'm saying? ...yeah, i heard you.
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For those wishing a mini-tutorial on economics, as this chap sorely needs, I highly recommend these Dr. Walter Williams (George Mason University) lessons: http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/misc/econcitizen/index.html There are ten lessons, about 700 words each. Thomas Sowell at http://www.tsowell.com/ is equally recommended. "The study of history is a powerful antidote to contemporary arrogance. It is humbling to discover how many of our glib assumptions, which seem to us novel and plausible, have been tested before, not once but many times and in innumerable guises; and discovered to be, at great human cost, wholly false." --Paul Johnson
I was thinking a bit about this last night. I can sum up my point in one question: Can each person on this planet be a millionare at the same time? This statement is false.
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Mircea Grelus wrote:
Imagine this situation which is not far from the thruth.
not far from the truth? ergo it's not true?
Mircea Grelus wrote:
Especially because I can afford buying from other companies and support my country and eventually support me.
how do you think it is that you and your country can afford these things? 3 little words that appear on almost everything from your sneakers to your refridgerator - MADE IN CHINA see what i'm saying? ...yeah, i heard you.
WinxGuru wrote:
how do you think it is that you and your country can afford these things?
I was speaking in your name (as american). As said that if I were an american I wouldn't buy things from Walmart, because I (as an american) I would afford buying from other companies that wouldn't drive the companies from my country (United States) into the ground. I didn't me as a person from Romania. I wasn't talking about my country neither. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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How about this concept. Money is a limited resource. There is only so much that the economy can support. When you have companies like Exxon with $35 billion in PROFIT.. that's profit, not revenues, then you gotta wonder how poor people in any country could have a chance. Not to mention Wal-Mart. Its the idea that companies have to GROW continually, instead of finding an equalibrium. Its written into the laws thanks to the stock market. There is no way for poor people to get a piece of that pie if large corporations and banks are allowing it to collect dust sitting in some vault for the sake of research and development which seems to be their need for so much profit. Which in turn is to support their addiction to growth. How can all companies continually grow in a finite limited space? Rhetorical. This statement is false.
Inflation.
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Inflation.
Right, but in accordance with that the dollar is devaluated. So that growth is illusory as its relative to the value of the dollar. This statement is false.
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sheesh. who knew programmers had hearts? :) seriously though, i don't see much point in complaining about it as these things will never change. sure, they'll close down this one (which leaves the people you are so concerned about worse off as now they are unemployed), but what about the others that we are unaware of? they will continue to exist for as long as capitalism exists - should we put an end to that? i doubt you would honestly agree with me, but still i live in hope. ...yeah, i heard you.
I don't argue that capitalism shouldn't exist. But oversight is needed as well as the realization that never ending profits can't be sustained. We need a change in focus from constant growth to one of equalibrium. And its a pretty weak argument that we need to keep the sweatshops alive because then these people won't have those menial jobs to sustain themselves. No, we need to raise our standards and insist that our companies pay a livable wage to any and all workers that are contributing to their profits. Profit.. its in addition to the cost of doing business. Everyone has been paid their salary. But so they can do business before they can afford it, they need investors, and the lure is that they'll make money for doing nothing except forking over the cash. This all stems from the desire of companies to do business before they can actually afford it. And that translates and reflects throughout the world. Someone is paying for it, and we choose as a nation to support companies that pass that buck on to the sweatshops. Either we pay higher prices or the wageslaves get paid less. But the companies sure aren't going to pay for it. This statement is false.
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WinxGuru wrote:
how do you think it is that you and your country can afford these things?
I was speaking in your name (as american). As said that if I were an american I wouldn't buy things from Walmart, because I (as an american) I would afford buying from other companies that wouldn't drive the companies from my country (United States) into the ground. I didn't me as a person from Romania. I wasn't talking about my country neither. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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ah. very clear now.
Mircea Grelus wrote:
I was speaking in your name (as american).
i'm not american either, by the way. ...yeah, i heard you.
WinxGuru wrote:
i'm not american either, by the way.
:laugh: This is getting funnier. I meant "your" as in all the americans, not you personally. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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WinxGuru wrote:
i'm not american either, by the way.
:laugh: This is getting funnier. I meant "your" as in all the americans, not you personally. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.