Is C# Making Devs Dumber (part two)
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Jun Du wrote:
Pets cannot survive in the wild
Neither can most humans. Want to give up your house, water supply, supermarket, car and electricity? regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
And that's exactly the point. They used to - but now, because life's been made "easy" for them, they can't.
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Some days ago I wrote about a new client I got, where I currently spend full-time developing in C++. I also made the statement that C# makes developers dumber. That made quite a few people upset ;) Unfortunately I did not have time to address all the replies, so I thought I would do it here, in a new post. One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"... - Anders My new photo website[^]
I don't see how a choice of language could make someone "dumb." A dumb person is slow to learn or understand. I disagree that a person's innate intellectual capacity is directly affected by the programming language they use. Perhaps you meant to say that "C# keeps people ignorant" instead? The abstractions afforded by the .NET framework (not C# in particular) do allow the developer to ignore what many C++ers enjoy most; the nitty grittiness of the underlying details (memory addresses, etc.) By shielding a developer from the ones and zeros, a higher level language does, indeed, keep him/her happily removed from the underlying reality. But as Andrew Koenig mentioned in "Ruminations on C++"...Abstraction is selective ignorance. Cheers, Josh
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And that's exactly the point. They used to - but now, because life's been made "easy" for them, they can't.
And is that a bad thing? That instead of focusing on basic survival skills we have created an infrastructure and environment that looks after us freeing up that time so that we may focus on higher-level tasks. I don't want to have to spend time learning how to purify water so that I may safely drink it. Same with programming applications. I want to focus on features, usability and functionality. Not figuring out pointers, bytes and low level processes. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
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Some days ago I wrote about a new client I got, where I currently spend full-time developing in C++. I also made the statement that C# makes developers dumber. That made quite a few people upset ;) Unfortunately I did not have time to address all the replies, so I thought I would do it here, in a new post. One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"... - Anders My new photo website[^]
C# makes me a better developer of applications (functionality, usability, features etc.) C++ makes me a better coder. You get to choose what you want to be. The low level guy or the high level guy. We need them both. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
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Having come from a Visual Basic / VBA background, I'd say Java/C# has made me a lot smarter :D
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Jun Du wrote:
Pets cannot survive in the wild
Neither can most humans. Want to give up your house, water supply, supermarket, car and electricity? regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
No problem. Life might be somewhat harder but it would be a lot less stressful then a day at the office I'm sure. Plus what you would do in the wild would actually be productive in the sense that what you were doing would actually benefit you and your family... On the other side, I do like my A/C and I don't like being hot so I'll stick with comfort for now and rely on primitive living for when it just must be done. @the original author: C# isn't bad and neither is C++ but why use unsafe code if you can do the same thing in C# safely? If a problem arises that can't be handled in C# then by all means have fun and write some C++ or unsafe C# code. -Richard
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C# makes me a better developer of applications (functionality, usability, features etc.) C++ makes me a better coder. You get to choose what you want to be. The low level guy or the high level guy. We need them both. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
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I don't see how a choice of language could make someone "dumb." A dumb person is slow to learn or understand. I disagree that a person's innate intellectual capacity is directly affected by the programming language they use. Perhaps you meant to say that "C# keeps people ignorant" instead? The abstractions afforded by the .NET framework (not C# in particular) do allow the developer to ignore what many C++ers enjoy most; the nitty grittiness of the underlying details (memory addresses, etc.) By shielding a developer from the ones and zeros, a higher level language does, indeed, keep him/her happily removed from the underlying reality. But as Andrew Koenig mentioned in "Ruminations on C++"...Abstraction is selective ignorance. Cheers, Josh
Josh Smith wrote:
By shielding a developer from the ones and zeros, a higher level language does, indeed, keep him/her happily removed from the underlying reality.
There is absolutely no reason for a lack of situational awareness where one's code is concerned. .NET is nothing more than an attempt by Microsoft to permanantly shackle developers and users to Windows. It's not about making it easy for programmers or convenient for users - it's about money for Microsoft.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
I've been coding in Java (still not bothered with C# as I'm not doing Windows development anymore) for the last year and found that I really had to think when I was required to do some C++ (mainly with regard to object deletion and pointer stuff). It can be a bit disconcerting as I [did :~ ] regard C++ as my core language. I'm guessing that the experience with C# is similar: its doesn't make you dumber, you just have to remember to switch context. IMO only having experience in Java/VB/C# would be limiting. Don't get me wrong, one can be very productive using these languages for developments that are suited to them but it is invaluable to really know what it going on at the lower level and solve some of the basic problems yourself. [I don't do any assembler but greatly value the experience with it that I gained at school/uni - ah! op codes 'poked' into REM statements on a ZX81; 13 addressing modes on a 68000. Hours of fun!]
Wags wrote:
ah! op codes 'poked' into REM statements on a ZX81; 13 addressing modes on a 68000. Hours of fun!]
You brought me back some good memories... I lost count of the number of times I've written LD HL, 400C (2A 0C 40, I still can remember it correctly!) :-D
From the Churchdown Parish Magazine: "Would the Congregation please note that the bowl at the back of the Church, labelled 'For The Sick,' is for monetary donations only."
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No problem. Life might be somewhat harder but it would be a lot less stressful then a day at the office I'm sure. Plus what you would do in the wild would actually be productive in the sense that what you were doing would actually benefit you and your family... On the other side, I do like my A/C and I don't like being hot so I'll stick with comfort for now and rely on primitive living for when it just must be done. @the original author: C# isn't bad and neither is C++ but why use unsafe code if you can do the same thing in C# safely? If a problem arises that can't be handled in C# then by all means have fun and write some C++ or unsafe C# code. -Richard
I'm thinking of more than just office days. How about the pursuit of science, expansion into space, time for spiritual matters and time to write a great book. Time to spend flying a kite with your kids because you don't have to spend 18 hours a day picking berries. I don't think hunter gatherer families were at all healthy. It was a crude, mean way of life. If a child got sick, she was left behind and died. We often romanticise past days thinking much of it was spent without the pressure of modern day life. We forget the pressures of basic living. As someone said; life back then was short and brutal. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
-- modified at 10:12 Monday 19th June, 2006
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Josh Smith wrote:
By shielding a developer from the ones and zeros, a higher level language does, indeed, keep him/her happily removed from the underlying reality.
There is absolutely no reason for a lack of situational awareness where one's code is concerned. .NET is nothing more than an attempt by Microsoft to permanantly shackle developers and users to Windows. It's not about making it easy for programmers or convenient for users - it's about money for Microsoft.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
There is absolutely no reason for a lack of situational awareness where one's code is concerned.
Sure there is. If a piece of information does not help me solve a problem or meet a deadline, I don't want to know about it. It only gets in the way.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
.NET is nothing more than an attempt by Microsoft to permanantly shackle developers and users to Windows. It's not about making it easy for programmers or convenient for users - it's about money for Microsoft.
That might be true, but it does not contribute anything to the discussion at hand. The way that MS is making Windows programming more palatable to a larger audience (or shackling them, as you put it) is by providing higher levels of abstraction in the platform. Their motives for creating a high-level platform, however, do not negate the effects of the abstractions. Josh
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Some days ago I wrote about a new client I got, where I currently spend full-time developing in C++. I also made the statement that C# makes developers dumber. That made quite a few people upset ;) Unfortunately I did not have time to address all the replies, so I thought I would do it here, in a new post. One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"... - Anders My new photo website[^]
C# allows dumb people to become programmers (just kidding) Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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Some days ago I wrote about a new client I got, where I currently spend full-time developing in C++. I also made the statement that C# makes developers dumber. That made quite a few people upset ;) Unfortunately I did not have time to address all the replies, so I thought I would do it here, in a new post. One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"... - Anders My new photo website[^]
Anders Molin wrote:
One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"...
You do know that C# has pointers to? press "f1" and look for "unsafe" keyword but maybe its hard to notice such features when you are blinded by such an amazing aura of light.. ;-) http://www.puzzleframework.com
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Josh Smith wrote:
By shielding a developer from the ones and zeros, a higher level language does, indeed, keep him/her happily removed from the underlying reality.
There is absolutely no reason for a lack of situational awareness where one's code is concerned. .NET is nothing more than an attempt by Microsoft to permanantly shackle developers and users to Windows. It's not about making it easy for programmers or convenient for users - it's about money for Microsoft.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
It's not about making it easy for programmers or convenient for users - it's about money for Microsoft.
Actually, the two are mutual: Microsoft wants it to be easy for programmers to develop apps for Windows, which in turn keeps more end users on Windows, which makes Microsoft more money. To say .NET shackles developers to Windows is nonsense; .NET is very portable (case in point, the Mono Project[^], far more so than, say, MFC.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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C# makes me a better developer of applications (functionality, usability, features etc.) C++ makes me a better coder. You get to choose what you want to be. The low level guy or the high level guy. We need them both. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
Paul Watson writes:
C++ makes me a better coder. You get to choose what you want to be. The low level guy or the high level guy. We need them both.Hi paul, dont take this the wrong way, I am being honest. Its amazing how even the words that describe languages change and evolve over the years. I always considered C++ a high level language, and I have always used that terminology to describe C++. I can imagine a day far in the future... maybe one day people will refer to C# as a low level language. A few months ago, I was in a meeting with some young developers from another company, we were working on a joint client/server project. While discussing some image manipulation optimizations, I replied that i could speed up the process by using some inline assembly utilizing SSE instructions. To which one of them replied: "Yeah, you could probably speed it up by using a good .NET image tool.":confused: Which left me puzzled... I had absolutely no idea what he was talking about. It took a few minutes for me to realize that he thought I was referring to a ".NET assembly" After I left the meeting, I had time to sit at my desk and think about it. I do realize that I am in my late 30's and have been developing for over 15 years, but its becoming harder to communicate with young developers coming straight out of college. So many things are changing. -
And is that a bad thing? That instead of focusing on basic survival skills we have created an infrastructure and environment that looks after us freeing up that time so that we may focus on higher-level tasks. I don't want to have to spend time learning how to purify water so that I may safely drink it. Same with programming applications. I want to focus on features, usability and functionality. Not figuring out pointers, bytes and low level processes. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
Amen
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
There is absolutely no reason for a lack of situational awareness where one's code is concerned.
Sure there is. If a piece of information does not help me solve a problem or meet a deadline, I don't want to know about it. It only gets in the way.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
.NET is nothing more than an attempt by Microsoft to permanantly shackle developers and users to Windows. It's not about making it easy for programmers or convenient for users - it's about money for Microsoft.
That might be true, but it does not contribute anything to the discussion at hand. The way that MS is making Windows programming more palatable to a larger audience (or shackling them, as you put it) is by providing higher levels of abstraction in the platform. Their motives for creating a high-level platform, however, do not negate the effects of the abstractions. Josh
Josh Smith wrote:
The way that MS is making Windows programming more palatable to a larger audience (or shackling them, as you put it) is by providing higher levels of abstraction in the platform. Their motives for creating a high-level platform, however, do not negate the effects of the abstractions.
Sounds like a bad will producing good results. :omg: - It's easier to make than to correct a mistake.
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Some days ago I wrote about a new client I got, where I currently spend full-time developing in C++. I also made the statement that C# makes developers dumber. That made quite a few people upset ;) Unfortunately I did not have time to address all the replies, so I thought I would do it here, in a new post. One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"... - Anders My new photo website[^]
Didn't people say the same thing about C++ when coding in C and ASM was all the rage? :rolleyes:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Josh Smith wrote:
The way that MS is making Windows programming more palatable to a larger audience (or shackling them, as you put it) is by providing higher levels of abstraction in the platform. Their motives for creating a high-level platform, however, do not negate the effects of the abstractions.
Sounds like a bad will producing good results. :omg: - It's easier to make than to correct a mistake.
Like the music of Wagner. :-D
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Anders Molin wrote:
One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"...
You do know that C# has pointers to? press "f1" and look for "unsafe" keyword but maybe its hard to notice such features when you are blinded by such an amazing aura of light.. ;-) http://www.puzzleframework.com
Roger J wrote:
You do know that C# has pointers to? press "f1" and look for "unsafe" keyword
FINALLY!!! How far did this thread run before someone pointed that out?
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