Is C# Making Devs Dumber (part two)
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Josh Smith wrote:
By shielding a developer from the ones and zeros, a higher level language does, indeed, keep him/her happily removed from the underlying reality.
There is absolutely no reason for a lack of situational awareness where one's code is concerned. .NET is nothing more than an attempt by Microsoft to permanantly shackle developers and users to Windows. It's not about making it easy for programmers or convenient for users - it's about money for Microsoft.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
It's not about making it easy for programmers or convenient for users - it's about money for Microsoft.
Actually, the two are mutual: Microsoft wants it to be easy for programmers to develop apps for Windows, which in turn keeps more end users on Windows, which makes Microsoft more money. To say .NET shackles developers to Windows is nonsense; .NET is very portable (case in point, the Mono Project[^], far more so than, say, MFC.
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C# makes me a better developer of applications (functionality, usability, features etc.) C++ makes me a better coder. You get to choose what you want to be. The low level guy or the high level guy. We need them both. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
Paul Watson writes:
C++ makes me a better coder. You get to choose what you want to be. The low level guy or the high level guy. We need them both.Hi paul, dont take this the wrong way, I am being honest. Its amazing how even the words that describe languages change and evolve over the years. I always considered C++ a high level language, and I have always used that terminology to describe C++. I can imagine a day far in the future... maybe one day people will refer to C# as a low level language. A few months ago, I was in a meeting with some young developers from another company, we were working on a joint client/server project. While discussing some image manipulation optimizations, I replied that i could speed up the process by using some inline assembly utilizing SSE instructions. To which one of them replied: "Yeah, you could probably speed it up by using a good .NET image tool.":confused: Which left me puzzled... I had absolutely no idea what he was talking about. It took a few minutes for me to realize that he thought I was referring to a ".NET assembly" After I left the meeting, I had time to sit at my desk and think about it. I do realize that I am in my late 30's and have been developing for over 15 years, but its becoming harder to communicate with young developers coming straight out of college. So many things are changing. -
And is that a bad thing? That instead of focusing on basic survival skills we have created an infrastructure and environment that looks after us freeing up that time so that we may focus on higher-level tasks. I don't want to have to spend time learning how to purify water so that I may safely drink it. Same with programming applications. I want to focus on features, usability and functionality. Not figuring out pointers, bytes and low level processes. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
Amen
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
There is absolutely no reason for a lack of situational awareness where one's code is concerned.
Sure there is. If a piece of information does not help me solve a problem or meet a deadline, I don't want to know about it. It only gets in the way.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
.NET is nothing more than an attempt by Microsoft to permanantly shackle developers and users to Windows. It's not about making it easy for programmers or convenient for users - it's about money for Microsoft.
That might be true, but it does not contribute anything to the discussion at hand. The way that MS is making Windows programming more palatable to a larger audience (or shackling them, as you put it) is by providing higher levels of abstraction in the platform. Their motives for creating a high-level platform, however, do not negate the effects of the abstractions. Josh
Josh Smith wrote:
The way that MS is making Windows programming more palatable to a larger audience (or shackling them, as you put it) is by providing higher levels of abstraction in the platform. Their motives for creating a high-level platform, however, do not negate the effects of the abstractions.
Sounds like a bad will producing good results. :omg: - It's easier to make than to correct a mistake.
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Some days ago I wrote about a new client I got, where I currently spend full-time developing in C++. I also made the statement that C# makes developers dumber. That made quite a few people upset ;) Unfortunately I did not have time to address all the replies, so I thought I would do it here, in a new post. One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"... - Anders My new photo website[^]
Didn't people say the same thing about C++ when coding in C and ASM was all the rage? :rolleyes:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Josh Smith wrote:
The way that MS is making Windows programming more palatable to a larger audience (or shackling them, as you put it) is by providing higher levels of abstraction in the platform. Their motives for creating a high-level platform, however, do not negate the effects of the abstractions.
Sounds like a bad will producing good results. :omg: - It's easier to make than to correct a mistake.
Like the music of Wagner. :-D
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Anders Molin wrote:
One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"...
You do know that C# has pointers to? press "f1" and look for "unsafe" keyword but maybe its hard to notice such features when you are blinded by such an amazing aura of light.. ;-) http://www.puzzleframework.com
Roger J wrote:
You do know that C# has pointers to? press "f1" and look for "unsafe" keyword
FINALLY!!! How far did this thread run before someone pointed that out?
“Profanity is the attempt of a lazy and feeble mind to express itself forcefully”
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And is that a bad thing? That instead of focusing on basic survival skills we have created an infrastructure and environment that looks after us freeing up that time so that we may focus on higher-level tasks. I don't want to have to spend time learning how to purify water so that I may safely drink it. Same with programming applications. I want to focus on features, usability and functionality. Not figuring out pointers, bytes and low level processes. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
Paul Watson wrote:
Same with programming applications. I want to focus on features, usability and functionality. Not figuring out pointers, bytes and low level processes.
Even in C++ if all you do is focus on memory, then you're a C++ rookie. It's not really that difficult. And if you spend all your time debugging it, then you're (not you, generalizing) a lousy C++ programmer. I'm not against C#. I think it's a great replacement for VB that's long overdue. But, I still don't think it replaces C/C++, just classic VB's market. It just happened to take a few C++ devs with it that really wanted to be in VB but they didn't want to seem like a "VB programmer." Jeremy Falcon
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Anders Molin wrote:
One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"...
You do know that C# has pointers to? press "f1" and look for "unsafe" keyword but maybe its hard to notice such features when you are blinded by such an amazing aura of light.. ;-) http://www.puzzleframework.com
Roger J wrote:
but maybe its hard to notice such features when you are blinded by such an amazing aura of light
Exactly! When I was learning C#, I knew a really hardcore C++er. I'd show him some slick feature in C#/.NET and he would come back to me a few days later with 500 lines of code. "Look, you don't need C# to do that, you can just use this code instead." Yeah buddy, 1 line vs. 500 lines...hmmm....right. :-D Josh
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And is that a bad thing? That instead of focusing on basic survival skills we have created an infrastructure and environment that looks after us freeing up that time so that we may focus on higher-level tasks. I don't want to have to spend time learning how to purify water so that I may safely drink it. Same with programming applications. I want to focus on features, usability and functionality. Not figuring out pointers, bytes and low level processes. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
Paul Watson wrote:
Same with programming applications. I want to focus on features, usability and functionality. Not figuring out pointers, bytes and low level processes.
Exactly. The best programming platform, IMO, is one that lets you focus more on features, usability, functionality, flexibility, and extensibility most of the time, but allows for raw speed and low-level stuff when needed. .NET with C# and C++/CLI does that well.
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C# makes me a better developer of applications (functionality, usability, features etc.) C++ makes me a better coder. You get to choose what you want to be. The low level guy or the high level guy. We need them both. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
5! Jeremy Falcon
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C# allows dumb people to become programmers (just kidding) Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
Chris Losinger wrote:
C# allows dumb people to become programmers
:-D Jeremy Falcon
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Didn't people say the same thing about C++ when coding in C and ASM was all the rage? :rolleyes:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Yeah maybe, but at which point do we stop? In the future 3 year olds will be able to program by reading a cereal box. We're gonna "innovate" ourselves out of high paying jobs in the future. The only ones that will make decent money are the ones that will know how to to make those tools that 3 year olds use to build the next great app - low level devs. Jeremy Falcon
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Didn't people say the same thing about C++ when coding in C and ASM was all the rage? :rolleyes:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
Didn't people say the same thing about C++ when coding in C and ASM was all the rage?
As far as I remember - no. Quite the opposite : the C guys mostly complained C++ was too complex. Well, they still do :)
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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Didn't people say the same thing about C++ when coding in C and ASM was all the rage? :rolleyes:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Wheels make you dumb. Logs are where it is at man. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
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Judah Himango wrote:
Didn't people say the same thing about C++ when coding in C and ASM was all the rage?
As far as I remember - no. Quite the opposite : the C guys mostly complained C++ was too complex. Well, they still do :)
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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Yeah maybe, but at which point do we stop? In the future 3 year olds will be able to program by reading a cereal box. We're gonna "innovate" ourselves out of high paying jobs in the future. The only ones that will make decent money are the ones that will know how to to make those tools that 3 year olds use to build the next great app - low level devs. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
We're gonna "innovate" ourselves out of high paying jobs in the future.
I hear that alot, but I'm not sure I really buy it. I mean, any fool can quickly pick up some books or read an online example of hello world, then call himself a programmer. But the real devs are the guys that understand algorithms, code flow, have problem solving skills, know how to build and maintain big projects, and so on. Those are things that are language-agnostic, and don't carry over to cearl-box programmers. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Yeah maybe, but at which point do we stop? In the future 3 year olds will be able to program by reading a cereal box. We're gonna "innovate" ourselves out of high paying jobs in the future. The only ones that will make decent money are the ones that will know how to to make those tools that 3 year olds use to build the next great app - low level devs. Jeremy Falcon
The fear of making software development too easy has been around since punch cards were the big splash. When OOP was new on the scene, the dev community was really concerned that "in five years from now, we'll all be about of jobs because of reusable code, polymorphism, etc.". But, what happened? As our tools become more powerful, the problems we are expected to solve grow in complexity. Now a simple data entry app talks to Web services, databases, saves/retrieves files over networks, etc. I don't think that our jobs will ever get easier, regardless of how much better our tools become. Imagine trying to create the data entry app I described above in assembly, or plain old C. You (not you in particular) would spend way too much time thinking about the bits and bytes to get the job done on time, unless you had a plush deadline :) Josh
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Judah Himango wrote:
Didn't people say the same thing about C++ when coding in C and ASM was all the rage?
As far as I remember - no. Quite the opposite : the C guys mostly complained C++ was too complex. Well, they still do :)
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
I distinctly recall many C devs, even today among systems developers and even some game developers, saying that C++ is too high-level, too low on performance thanks to OO overhead, exceptions, etc.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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I distinctly recall many C devs, even today among systems developers and even some game developers, saying that C++ is too high-level, too low on performance thanks to OO overhead, exceptions, etc.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
saying that C++ is too high-level, too low on performance thanks to OO overhead, exceptions, etc.
True. However, I don't remember any of them saying that C++ is simpler and makes you "dumber". Heck, I was one of them - I would remember that :-D
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.