Programmer's Bias
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I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
So my question is: does ATLAS work in Opera? The demo pages for the latest ATLAS Toolkit don't. Cross-browser compatibility is the requirement in web development. Anyway, even if they put workarounds and hacks to make the product work in every browser, that's fine to me. _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 0.2a...
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I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased?
To put a different perspective on this, many people routinely bash BASIC and any derivative products thereof. From my perspective, when I started programming (VERY early '80s), my options were: interpreted BASIC or Assembler. So, I learned BASIC. I have learned a number of languages since and have used many languages in my career, but, because I was first exposed to BASIC, I tend to work in that environment - it is where my comfort level is. To some, that makes me a 'bad' or 'lazy' or 'useless' programmer. The language is a tool - the browser is a tool. They all have strengths and weaknesses. Tim
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nicknotyet wrote:
and prone to irrational emotionality around things that contradict or support their locked down little worlds
Yeah, i rarely ever see this in people who aren't programmers... :rolleyes: ;)
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Clowns from the entertainment industry immediately come to mind ... :sigh: I've seen better runs in my shorts! - Patches O'Houlihan
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I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
I won't answer your bias question but I will say that a: the Atlas guys know IE inside and out and better than they do Firefox and b: they probably start by developing for IE and then integrate the other browsers (as opposed to what a good many of the other JS library devs will do which is start with Firefox or Safari and then integrate IE etc.) So it is more a case of where they are coming from rather than an illogical loyalty bias. Do remember that devs on the IE team itself have admitted IE6 is problematic and way behind. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
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Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased?
To put a different perspective on this, many people routinely bash BASIC and any derivative products thereof. From my perspective, when I started programming (VERY early '80s), my options were: interpreted BASIC or Assembler. So, I learned BASIC. I have learned a number of languages since and have used many languages in my career, but, because I was first exposed to BASIC, I tend to work in that environment - it is where my comfort level is. To some, that makes me a 'bad' or 'lazy' or 'useless' programmer. The language is a tool - the browser is a tool. They all have strengths and weaknesses. Tim
Tim Carmichael wrote:
To put a different perspective on this, many people routinely bash BASIC and any derivative products thereof.
Agree with you. C++ and C# devs bash VB. C++ and C# devs bash each other. Everyone collectively bashes C++/CLI. Jokes about Cobol/Fortran/Pascal are more popular than "your momma" jokes. Obviously, all these are further proof of how subjective programmers can be. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
so strongly biased?
i would say thats more of loyality then bias... Rule # 17: Omit Needless Words - Strunk, William, Jr. ------------------------------------------------------------- Universal DBA | Ajax Rating
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I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
If programmers were really objective we would all revolt and come up with one standard to rule them all, one standard to bind them all and in the standard screw them all. Programmers are not objective. They are passionate! Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
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If programmers were really objective we would all revolt and come up with one standard to rule them all, one standard to bind them all and in the standard screw them all. Programmers are not objective. They are passionate! Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
Marc Clifton wrote:
one standard to rule them all, one standard to bind them all and in the standard screw them all.
I thought that's what Windows was for? Hasn't this already been achieved? :) ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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I won't answer your bias question but I will say that a: the Atlas guys know IE inside and out and better than they do Firefox and b: they probably start by developing for IE and then integrate the other browsers (as opposed to what a good many of the other JS library devs will do which is start with Firefox or Safari and then integrate IE etc.) So it is more a case of where they are coming from rather than an illogical loyalty bias. Do remember that devs on the IE team itself have admitted IE6 is problematic and way behind. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
I think that sums it up best. Whenever you get the code working the first time, that is the "right" way. Any changes you make later on are kludges, workarounds or maintenance code. Kinda the real world keeps spoiling my beautiful designs theme.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
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Marc Clifton wrote:
one standard to rule them all, one standard to bind them all and in the standard screw them all.
I thought that's what Windows was for? Hasn't this already been achieved? :) ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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If programmers were really objective we would all revolt and come up with one standard to rule them all, one standard to bind them all and in the standard screw them all. Programmers are not objective. They are passionate! Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
Marc Clifton wrote:
Programmers are not objective. They are passionate!
:beer: to this.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
Well, it's interesting that you use the browsers war for your example, cause during the seventies and eighties, it was the terminals war. And as fast as one company 'invented' their special escape sequence for some new display characteristic, the others would bastardize their supported features to do the same. The net result as a programmer who built device driver's to support multiple terminals, was code littered with similar sentiments
// Advance cursor to field location,...except for
// IBM. Their attributes are prior to field location.
// Turn on inverse mode. For H7700, go to end of field to turn it off.Welcome to the world of standards adherence. The more things change, the more they remain the same. I guess. :cool: Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] When no one was looking, every single American woman between the ages of 18 and 32 went out and got a tatoo just above their rumpus. [link[^]]
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I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
I think often it's more likely to be a matter of what they're most familiar with, not with which one they're biased for or against. BTW I have comments in my Javascript code mentioning bugs and hacks for both major browsers, but 3/4 of them are for IE. In IE I've had problems with things like the absence of the ability to specify top, left, right, and bottom all at once for an absolutely- or relatively-positioned element, the fact that it doesn't set the "this" argument for dynamically attached handlers, the messed-up "float" CSS attribute implementation, offsetTop/Left vs offsetParent discrepancy, incorrect overflow:auto behavior, messed-up margin collapse, etc, and a myriad of missing or incomplete CSS features. The number of problems that have to be worked around will likely go down significantly when IE7 is mainstream - I think a number of the things I hit most often are addressed in it.
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I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased?
Where is the bias in the above statements? It appears obvious to me that the IE folks developed against IE, and fixed for Mozilla/Firefox, and that the opposite held for the other party. That doesn't seem any more biased than any other design decision. If I develop a multithreaded app for Windows, then port to Linux/Unix, my code is going to be sprinkled with comments that are like "can't do this on Linux/Unix like this, so we need to put in this shim". It's not a condemnation of the Linux/Unix threading model - just a realization of the modifications necessary to the existing codebase for compatibility. IMHO, I wouldn't call these things biased. I would refer to those things as simply bitchy ;)
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I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased?
Never underestimate the stupidity of people. :-D Jeremy Falcon
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Tim Carmichael wrote:
To put a different perspective on this, many people routinely bash BASIC and any derivative products thereof.
Agree with you. C++ and C# devs bash VB. C++ and C# devs bash each other. Everyone collectively bashes C++/CLI. Jokes about Cobol/Fortran/Pascal are more popular than "your momma" jokes. Obviously, all these are further proof of how subjective programmers can be. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)My momma did write Cobol and Fortran, I'm a second generation software geek. NIK PS. VB is for weenies :laugh: PSS. Kidding of course, its just a tool and just because you use one doesn't mean you are one.
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Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? I think they are logical when it comes to code and design, but by definition they tend to be less socially oriented, and less socially functional as a result. A lack of social skills, cultural awareness, and coping skills, makes them more prone to being control freaks, and prone to irrational emotionality around things that contradict or support their locked down little worlds. In the latter case it can make them fiercely loyal to the school of thought that supports their particular world view, even to the point of being hystrionic, paranoid, or completely irrational - IMHO The beauty of bias is that we can rarely see our own because it is so deeply engrained into who we are and how we think. But what do I know, I'm a software engineer. :)
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When i start a project in VS6, then i become irritated upon moving to VS2005 and finding i need to make changes to certain message handlers because they changed the datatypes. When i start in VS2005 and have to back-port to VS6, i become infuriated upon being reminded of all the language bugs that i now have to work around again. And as Kant mentioned, the Live.com developers haven't been terribly complementary to IE in some situations, so even MS-employed web-devs are willing to admit the really bad problems (memory leaks, filter crashes...).
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I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased?
"Give a monkey a brain, and he'll think he's the center of the universe." ~Fishbone We're all still human no matter how logical we assume we've become. This statement is false.
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I have been doing a bunch of JavaScript and Ajax/Atlas work recently: investigating different toolkits and getting things to work on different browsers. A trend I found in most of the open source JavaScript libraries are comments like these:
//Work around for Internet Explorer
//IE BUG: IE does not render this correctly so add 1px to the width
//Calling ... crashes IE so call ... instead for IE
You will find little or no mention of FireFox. Now in Microsoft Atlas toolkit the story is different:
//Workaround for mozilla. We can't just use ... because it doesn't work on Mozilla
// calling ... here would blow up Firefox
Why are programmers, who are supposed to be logical creatures, so strongly biased? Of all the people I think programmers should be more objective but for some strange reason that is not the case.
