VS.2005 is it really usable ?
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
C'mon Nish, leave some room up Microsoft's ass for someone besides yourself...
:laugh: I like some of their products - and dislike some of it.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
That makes me laugh out-freakin-loud. MS has been saying that about ALL their products since the mid 80's, and here we sit, stuill waiting for that promise to come true.
Most SPs have been improvements over whatever was there previously. XP SP1 was better than XP, and XP SP2 is better than XP SP1.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
You don't have to be such an obvious shill for the company...
Assuming that I am a shill for them, what would I gain? I've probably complained more about issues in VS versions than I have praised it. And I still stick to my view that VS 2005 is better than VS 2003 - and that's what I'd recommend to people - they can take that or leave it :-) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Most SPs have been improvements over whatever was there previously. XP SP1 was better than XP, and XP SP2 is better than XP SP1.
Oh, I get the idea, I love iteration!!! :laugh:
for (i = 2; ; ++i) System.Console.WriteLine ("XP SP" + i + " is better than XP SP" + (i - 1));Anyway, that's de idea of a Service Pack, isn't it! :confused: -
For serious professional C++/MFC (95%) and some C# (5%) ? It seems that I'm reading horrible stories about how bad the product is ( project performances, intellisense, ... ) ! We're mostly upgrading from VC6, I'm using VS.2003 which is working fine. Is it worth it to go to VS.2005? or should we wait and buy VS.2003 ( if that is still possible ) and upgrade later ? Thanks.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
I can only speak for C# really. I like using VS2005 a lot, there are a lot of productivity features that are really cool. "Resolve" being one of my favourites. Intellisense works great for C#, best I've used. I find compiling times a little slow, but that may just because I have a crap machine at work. VS2005 is a little unstable, especially when loading solutions. I've lost count of the number of times I've loaded a solution only for VS2005 to crash. (I think the designer is the cause of the problems... they should have used declarative UI and not done it all in code LOL) Overall, I like VS2005 better than VS2003 but it can have its moments when you just want to throw it out the window. Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
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I think it is incredibly usable, and I love the improvements to VB. I have to say, now I prefer VB to C#. There are some bugs, and Microsoft has a couple of hot fix packages that you can get if you call the support line. As a long time user of Java and Java IDEs, you get used to incredibly bloated IDEs that perform like molasses. The current VS 2005 may be slower than the previous version, but if you compare it to any Java IDE on the same machine, it screams (and it does more than the previous version). I would also like to say that at least for me, the full support for Generics alone makes this worth the upgrade. And the fact that these are true generics, not just compile time type checks like in Java (what the heck was Sun thinking?), just impresses the heck out of me.
JasonSmith wrote:
I think it is incredibly usable, and I love the improvements to VB. I have to say, now I prefer VB to C#.
The IDE experience for C# is better IMO. Intellisense and code snippets are better implemented. However, refactoring via Refactor! for VB is much better than for C#.
JasonSmith wrote:
I would also like to say that at least for me, the full support for Generics alone makes this worth the upgrade.
Have you tried the excellent PowerCollections library from Wintellect? Kevin
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C'mon Nish, leave some room up Microsoft's ass for someone besides yourself...
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
it will all be good then.
That makes me laugh out-freakin-loud. MS has been saying that about ALL their products since the mid 80's, and here we sit, stuill waiting for that promise to come true. You don't have to be such an obvious shill for the company...
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
That makes me laugh out-freakin-loud. MS has been saying that about ALL their products since the mid 80's, and here we sit, stuill waiting for that promise to come true.
Whatever deficiencies there are in MS products - and there are plenty - it's frequently the case that competing products are either no better or worse or more expensive or all three. Kevin
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For serious professional C++/MFC (95%) and some C# (5%) ? It seems that I'm reading horrible stories about how bad the product is ( project performances, intellisense, ... ) ! We're mostly upgrading from VC6, I'm using VS.2003 which is working fine. Is it worth it to go to VS.2005? or should we wait and buy VS.2003 ( if that is still possible ) and upgrade later ? Thanks.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
Let's see what Mr. Bill Hicks thinks about it: "... piece of shit !!!" Sad enough I have to use it at office, I will definitely not use it for private projects before SP1 is out. How does Intellisense of VS8 suck! And no question about the performance - VS71 is fast as a lightning in comparison to VS8. Perhaps for C# it might already work quite good, but if you use mainly C++ you should definitely wait for SP1. When I hear things like: "Oh yes, Intellisense of VS2005 is really bad. But you can turn it off and use Visual Assist instead of it!". Then I'm really fed up with it... regards, mykel
If they give you lined paper, write the other way!-- modified at 18:03 Thursday 22nd June, 2006 -
I recently compiled a fairly large VS2003 solution. Geez, it was like driving a Porsche after putzing in a VW van. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
Try VC6 then. It'll be like driving a F1! :-D (Although, the compiler isn't all that safe, and may explode in your face, should you use anything fancy)
-- 100% natural. No superstitious additives.
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For serious professional C++/MFC (95%) and some C# (5%) ? It seems that I'm reading horrible stories about how bad the product is ( project performances, intellisense, ... ) ! We're mostly upgrading from VC6, I'm using VS.2003 which is working fine. Is it worth it to go to VS.2005? or should we wait and buy VS.2003 ( if that is still possible ) and upgrade later ? Thanks.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
I'd say stick to 2003, if you already have it. VS2005 adds close to nothing to C++, that I can see. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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JasonSmith wrote:
I think it is incredibly usable, and I love the improvements to VB. I have to say, now I prefer VB to C#.
The IDE experience for C# is better IMO. Intellisense and code snippets are better implemented. However, refactoring via Refactor! for VB is much better than for C#.
JasonSmith wrote:
I would also like to say that at least for me, the full support for Generics alone makes this worth the upgrade.
Have you tried the excellent PowerCollections library from Wintellect? Kevin
Kevin McFarlane wrote:
Have you tried the excellent PowerCollections library from Wintellect?
The last time I checked them (a year and a half ago, maybe) they were still under development. Are they ready now? Anyway, I don't understand why MS didn't come with something like that in the first place instead of the crappy BCL collections.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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I'd say go with VS 2005 - expect some IDE speed issues, specially for C++. But the SP will be out by end of this year and hopefully it will all be good then. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
Try VC6 then. It'll be like driving a F1! :-D (Although, the compiler isn't all that safe, and may explode in your face, should you use anything fancy)
-- 100% natural. No superstitious additives.
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
(Although, the compiler isn't all that safe, and may explode in your face, should you use anything fancy)
Yeah, like properly scoped for-loops! X| I've been writing the VS6 specific bits of Visual Lint (i.e. the VSPackage itself, which has to use MFC42) in VS6 and boy is it painful after 3 years of using VS2003 (the automation interface both sucks and blows too). :doh: Anna :rose: Currently working mostly on: Visual Lint :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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I'd say stick to 2003, if you already have it. VS2005 adds close to nothing to C++, that I can see. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
I'd go along with that. We're not moving to it yet for exactly that reason, although we do test against it. :rose: Anna :rose: Currently working mostly on: Visual Lint :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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I think it is incredibly usable, and I love the improvements to VB. I have to say, now I prefer VB to C#. There are some bugs, and Microsoft has a couple of hot fix packages that you can get if you call the support line. As a long time user of Java and Java IDEs, you get used to incredibly bloated IDEs that perform like molasses. The current VS 2005 may be slower than the previous version, but if you compare it to any Java IDE on the same machine, it screams (and it does more than the previous version). I would also like to say that at least for me, the full support for Generics alone makes this worth the upgrade. And the fact that these are true generics, not just compile time type checks like in Java (what the heck was Sun thinking?), just impresses the heck out of me.
JasonSmith wrote:
As a long time user of Java and Java IDEs, you get used to incredibly bloated IDEs that perform like molasses.
Yeah, just sad to see the official .NET IDE going that way...
JasonSmith wrote:
The current VS 2005 may be slower than the previous version, but if you compare it to any Java IDE on the same machine, it screams (and it does more than the previous version).
Anything screams compared to Java! ;P :->
JasonSmith wrote:
I would also like to say that at least for me, the full support for Generics alone makes this worth the upgrade.
Definitely. And then there's refactoring in the IDE, the new ASP.NET stuff, Reflection and delegate perf increases, anonymous methods, the ability to have separate access levels for property getters and setters, etc. All of those very good reasons to put up with a slow and bloated IDE if I have to. :)
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Most SPs have been improvements over whatever was there previously. XP SP1 was better than XP, and XP SP2 is better than XP SP1.
Oh, I get the idea, I love iteration!!! :laugh:
for (i = 2; ; ++i) System.Console.WriteLine ("XP SP" + i + " is better than XP SP" + (i - 1));Anyway, that's de idea of a Service Pack, isn't it! :confused:Sorry, but I'm with Nish on this one - use 2K5 for a few months, then switch back to 2K3....and begin converting all your projects hehe :) "Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
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For serious professional C++/MFC (95%) and some C# (5%) ? It seems that I'm reading horrible stories about how bad the product is ( project performances, intellisense, ... ) ! We're mostly upgrading from VC6, I'm using VS.2003 which is working fine. Is it worth it to go to VS.2005? or should we wait and buy VS.2003 ( if that is still possible ) and upgrade later ? Thanks.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
For C++ the ability to easily debug when using STL containers like std::vector and std::deque made it worth upgrading to VS2005! Unfortunatley stepping in the debugger is painfully slow from one line to the next which makes walking through a for loop ridiculously long. But overall I'm saving debug time by finally being able to see into and traverse a std::vector while in the debugger just by hovering over it. As far as Intellisense goes, I installed Visual Assist X and never looked back. Very pleased overall with the upgrade but I can't wait for the SP and I hope it speeds up debug stepping. robo
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C'mon Nish, leave some room up Microsoft's ass for someone besides yourself...
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
it will all be good then.
That makes me laugh out-freakin-loud. MS has been saying that about ALL their products since the mid 80's, and here we sit, stuill waiting for that promise to come true. You don't have to be such an obvious shill for the company...
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001VS2005 is a fine product even if it does overwhelm some self-taught programmers with its feature rich development environment.
“Profanity is the attempt of a lazy and feeble mind to express itself forcefully”
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Can't speak for c++ but it's totally usable for c#, just a slow IDE is really the only serious problem.
I use VC# 2005 Express, which has it's issues (like not remembering where I've moved a toolbar to, or that I've minimised my #region sections), but other than that I like the environment. I've moved to VC# 2005 from Visual Basic 6, so there's a . I plan on buying VS.2005 sometime, but while I'm still learning, Express is fine (and since it's free I can't really complain!).
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I use VC# 2005 Express, which has it's issues (like not remembering where I've moved a toolbar to, or that I've minimised my #region sections), but other than that I like the environment. I've moved to VC# 2005 from Visual Basic 6, so there's a . I plan on buying VS.2005 sometime, but while I'm still learning, Express is fine (and since it's free I can't really complain!).
AntiSilence wrote:
Express is fine (and since it's free I can't really complain!).
Yeah, when I think about the Borland C compiler I used to use back in the day it's amazing how far IDE's have come along. Interesting with the region thing that it took this long to come into the MS ide, back in the Borland C days there was something called the "Origami" editor which basically did the same thing collapsing functions to make readable source code.
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I use VC# 2005 Express, which has it's issues (like not remembering where I've moved a toolbar to, or that I've minimised my #region sections), but other than that I like the environment. I've moved to VC# 2005 from Visual Basic 6, so there's a . I plan on buying VS.2005 sometime, but while I'm still learning, Express is fine (and since it's free I can't really complain!).
Gotta say for the .NET developer it's a HUGE improvement over 2k3. The intellisense finally being intelligent is a big plus. If you're doing .NET, the combination of 2k5 with the new v2 framework is really something that shouldn't be passed up. I'm doing both ASP.NET and Winforms on the new framework w/ the 2k5 IDE and thus far find it very, very usable. -- modified at 14:35 Friday 23rd June, 2006 I should add that I am running it on a Pentium D 830 w/ 2gb RAM so can't really speak on the performance on a standard (1gb non-dual) machine. -- modified at 14:36 Friday 23rd June, 2006 Oh and one last thing, I do absolutely abhore MS's new "document explorer" for the help system. THAT is so unusably slow that I can't even run it. I head to MSDN w/ my browser every single time I would normally go to help. Just makes me scream when I hit 'F1' out of habit.
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Kevin McFarlane wrote:
Have you tried the excellent PowerCollections library from Wintellect?
The last time I checked them (a year and a half ago, maybe) they were still under development. Are they ready now? Anyway, I don't understand why MS didn't come with something like that in the first place instead of the crappy BCL collections.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
The last time I checked them (a year and a half ago, maybe) they were still under development. Are they ready now?
They've been out for ages, i.e., since at least the release date of VS 2005. However, you now have to register at wintellect's site (for free) to get them. They also have a PowerThreading library there but I've not looked at it. I hear that it's good though.
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
I don't understand why MS didn't come with something like that in the first place instead of the crappy BCL collections.
I'm sure they'll come up with something like this in the second place!:) Kevin
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For serious professional C++/MFC (95%) and some C# (5%) ? It seems that I'm reading horrible stories about how bad the product is ( project performances, intellisense, ... ) ! We're mostly upgrading from VC6, I'm using VS.2003 which is working fine. Is it worth it to go to VS.2005? or should we wait and buy VS.2003 ( if that is still possible ) and upgrade later ? Thanks.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
You may have to change your working style a bit if you are working with asp.net since they introduced a different way of working with websites. However, if you go with the new vs2005 website model, you can get some serious productivity gains from not having to recompile the projects as you make small tweaks to the codebehind. It can be really slow when loading the designer view of pages so I would suggest setting the options so that pages load as the source view by default. There is a lot of cool shiny stuff in 2.0 such as generics which are incredibly useful. I personally think it is worth the pain of upgrading your solutions. (Even though it can be a huge PITA!) Timothy Lee Russell http://www.anatone.net
