Anti-Israel protest in South Africa

[Jack Handy]

****Colin Davies wrote: Then why should Israel pull out ? I don't beleive they should without an ultimatum that would be enforced. ****Colin Davies wrote: When the USA started its anti Terrorism war last year, It appears to only have been Anti-American terrorism that the rest of the world is expected to fight against. I think that all terrorism should be fought against, I also think that America needs to fight against the anti-American terrorism while allowing Isreal to fight against anti-Isreali terrorism. I don't think that we are doing such a great job on the latter because of polotics, but we'll see. As far as the rest of the terrorism in the world it needs to be dealt with by someone.. but I don't think America is required to be that someone. -Jack To an optimist the glass is half full. To a pessimist the glass is half empty. To a programmer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

[zack]

Colin you are just outing yourself about knowing less than nothing about "protesters". :confused: zack

[Paul Watson]

MarSCoZa wrote: This kind of thing happens here every so often, and I always wonder what the point is. Do these people really think that a protest in South Africa is going to have any effect on the situation in Israel? As if the Israelis are going to say "Ooh, the South Africans are upset, we'd better stop fighting now!" To answer your first question: No, nothing will stop the Israelis and Palestinians fighting short of an armed peace-force. However protests like this can actually make a difference. During apartheid Swiss activists, Pommy do-gooders and many Americans protested in their countries to end apartheid in South Africa. They brought a lot of attention to the plight of the disadvantaged here in SA. When your own people clamour for something the politicians normally, in hope of getting more votes, do something about it. Frankly the world should stop talking and start doing in regards to Israel and Palestine. The momentum there is too great for words to stop it. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge

[Daniel Ferguson]

Paul Watson wrote: nothing will stop the Israelis and Palestinians fighting short of an armed peace-force Twenty or Thirty points of IQ would probably make a difference too. ;) A bit of emotional maturity would be a great help as well. Both sides should stop indoctrinating their children with hatred, and have the decency/strength to move forward. Paul Watson wrote: The momentum there is too great for words to stop it. Well said; I agree. "There is a fine line between lunacy and genius; it is my goal in life to keep them guessing just where the line lies..." -- Unknown

[ColinDavies]

zack wrote: you are just outing yourself about knowing less than nothing about "protesters". I said Protests are for fringe dwelling political leaders to gather support, And I sincerly mean it, most protesters have good intentions but are commonly manipulated into conducting criminal activity to support the hidden agenda of a political movement. Regardz Colin J Davies

Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin

I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"

[SimonS]

As a South African, I really wish that ppl in this country would stop shooting everyone else in the foot as far as world affairs goes. Like our president refusing to agree that HIV causes AIDS. Nice...I'm glad I voted DP.:| Cheers, Simon X-5 452 rules.

[ColinDavies]

Jack Handy wrote: As far as the rest of the terrorism in the world it needs to be dealt with by someone.. but I don't think America is required to be that someone. Yeah, its just last September G.Dubba.Bush asked for the worlds countries to be with or against the USA. In shock a lot of countries said they would help fight terrorism, but it appears that it was only Anti-American terrorism. Many countries have engagements in Afghanistan currently due to this. I guess one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. Regardz Colin J Davies

Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin

I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"

[ColinDavies]

Paul Watson wrote: During apartheid Swiss activists, Pommy do-gooders and many Americans protested in their countries to end apartheid in South Africa. They brought a lot of attention to the plight of the disadvantaged here in SA. When your own people clamour for something the politicians normally, in hope of getting more votes, do something about it. Do you really believe those protests caused a difference? I believe they were communist inspired plots to cause International instability using S.A. as an excuse. Also the Commies wanted S.A.s resources. Regardz Colin J Davies

Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin

I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"

[Mike Epprecht]

Hypothetically... If I go off my lid and blow up the Isreali emabassy, how can Arafat control me? Or be responsable for me? Everyone has their opinions and some people will not even listen to him. It's like the Whites in South Africa saying to Mandela: Tell all the black people to stop their crime. 99% of the criminals will just laugh at Mandela. The Palestinians are freedom fighters. Full stop. Ths USA called the ANC that during apartheid. Cheers Mike Johannesburg, South Africa

[Anna Jayne Metcalfe]

John Judd wrote: And when are the Palestinians going to finally stop blowing themselves up in cafes and restaurants. IMO, there is wrongdoing on both sides, but at least Israel in the past has offered to compromise. Barak put a piece deal on the table years ago that was a huge offering on his part, but because *all* of Jerusalem wasnt on the table Arafat rejected it. Only they can answer that one. It's heartbreaking, but I suspect we'll be waiting a long long time. John Judd wrote: One of the problems that I am finding with this whole situation is the very biased one-sided reporting against Israel. When I see a report about a Israeli soldier killing a Palestinian civilian the report pans the Israeli govt and military. Conversely, when I see a report about a Palestian suicide bomber killing twenty in a cafe, there seems to be no negativity towards the Palestinian Authority. Very true. It always seems to me that while we (i.e. the West) are hardened to violence from Palestinian terrorists, we consider Israel to be a civilised (read: Westernised) nation like ourselves and therefore expect them to behave "better" than that. As a result, when incidents like those of the last few days happen, the Israeli government gets slammed by the media. Just my pet theory. :confused: John Judd wrote: Personally I wish that common sense would prevail and that they would all just work it out. In the immortal words of someone famous. "Can't we all just get along?" Anyone with an ounce of compassion and common sense will feel the same. Unfortunately, that doesn't include the terrorists or governments involved. :( Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd

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"I would be careful in separating your wierdness, a good quirky weirdness, from the disturbed wierdness of people who take pleasure from PVC sheep with fruit repositories." - Paul Watson

[James T Johnson]

Mike Epprecht wrote: Hypothetically... If I go off my lid and blow up the Isreali emabassy, how can Arafat control me? Or be responsable for me? Arafat supports Hamas and gives the families of suicide bombers money, not to consol their loss but because they were a martyr. Is that enough? James Sonork: Hasaki "I left there in the morning with their God tucked underneath my arm their half-assed smiles and the book of rules. So I asked this God a question and by way of firm reply, He said - I'm not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays." "Wind Up" from Aqualung, Jethro Tull 1971

[Andrew Torrance]

What makes you think that the view of the USA carry any weight whatsoever with the Palistinians ? The USA is a huge financier to Isreal and as such is viewed with suspician from the Palistinian point of view .The Isrealis will listen because of all the money that the US gives it . The biggest possible influence on the Palistinians would be fellow Arab countries such as Saudi , that is why the recent events where Sharon effectively blocked Arrafat from attending the Arab summit was a wasted opportunity. The Palistinians may listen to a European country more than the US , which is odd really because it can be argued that it was because of a huge cock up by us Brits in the way the Palistinian mandate was created that led to this unholy mess in the first place.

[qe4109]

MarSCoZa wrote: Do these people really think that a protest in South Africa is going to have any effect on the situation in Israel? As if the Israelis are going to say "Ooh, the South Africans are upset, we'd better stop fighting now!" It's not only South Africa. See this Christian Science Monitor article.. Mideast conflict fuels global anger

[Stan Shannon]

I lose no love for Israel (I think the creation of Israel was about the most stupid thing the world could have done), but to blame Israel in any way for what is going on over there is ludicrous. There is absolutely nothing they can do but fight back. The Palestinians are not fighting for a state, the Arabs are fighting to destroy Israel. There are only two things that can be done to end the violence. 1) The destruction of Israel. 2) The destruction of Islam. The two cannot both exist simultaneously. "There's a slew of slip 'twixt cup and lip"

[Ed2002]

Stan Shannon wrote: but to blame the Israel's in any way for what is going on over there is ludicrous. It's the occupation, stupid M. Bishara [The writer is a researcher at the Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales and a professor at the American University of Paris. He is also the author of Palestine Israel: Peace or Apartheid.] The situation continues to deteriorate in Israel/Palestine. What to do? Blame the Palestinians? Implore the parties to stop the violence -- at least for a week, as Ariel Sharon demands, or perhaps region by region, as Shimon Peres proposes? Build a wall between the two peoples? Or how about getting rid of Arafat, as the Israelis army insists? Better get rid of Sharon... Or, while you're at it, why not get rid of both? Alas, the list goes on, ignoring the factor that has prolonged the conflict and blocked the peace: the illegal Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories. If the subject of occupation and illegal settlement in the occupied territories is not dealt with directly and quickly, it will continue to fester and move the region toward conflict. The Lebanese and Bosnian scenarios are being discussed seriously in the region. The Intifada is already turning into a classical colonial war. The latest debacle surrounding the Karine A only goes to confirm this. As long as the Israeli army continues to bombard Palestinian cities with its F-16s and Apache helicopters, Israel can expect no less than resistance from a people under occupation. Many initiatives are on the table, but most look for ways to calm the "security situation" under occupation -- surely a contradiction in terms. US special envoy Anthony Zinni is pointing to the so-called Dahania understanding between Shimon Peres and Yasser Arafat as the basis for breaking the security impasse. And then there are the Tenet points, referring to the CIA director's plan to implement the Mitchell Report, commissioned internationally and made in America, which highlighted the need for a freeze on Israeli settlements -- all settlements. But to arrive at durable peace rather than a useless cease- fire under occupation will require going beyond a "freeze" to the outright dismantling of most if not all the settlements that constitute extra-territorial entities on Palestinian land. Today all the flashpoints involve scarcely inhabited settlements in the heart of Palestinian communities. Taking them out is long overdue. The Israeli government has done exactly the opposite,

[Stan Shannon]

Sorry, but it is that explanation which is stupid. If that is all the Palestinians desired they could have had it easily decades ago by simply following the clear examples of peaceful non-cooperation set by Ghandhi, King and others. There is simply no way Israel could have withstood a movement of millions of people peacefully demanding their rights. You know it, I know, everyone on this planet, including the Palestinians, knows it. Islamic civilization in its entirity wants to physically destroy Israel. Israel could give in to every demand, and the Arabs would merely see it as a sign of weakness and attack even more. I sympathize with the plight of the Palistinians, I don't blame them for being angry, and I certainly do not mindlessly support Israel. But the Palistinians are being used as pawns by the leaders of the Islamic world to achieve a goal which has absolutely nothing to do with ending any kind of occupation. If we in the west do not rise to the challange that we are being confronted with, and do it soon, we can kiss our civilization good bye. "There's a slew of slip 'twixt cup and lip"

[Vuemme]

Stan Shannon wrote: I think the creation of Israel was about the most stupid thing the world could have done The creation of Israel is a consequence of the most terrible thing humans have done. There is absolutely nothing they can do but fight back. Under Itzak Rabin government they didn't fight, and they were very close to peace. I think that many people on both sides still want peace, but peace is much more complicated than war, as your example states. Fight back is the simplest solution, not the only one, and not the best one! There are only two things that can be done to end the violence. 1) The destruction of Israel. 2) The destruction of Islam. Islam is not something you can "destroy", you can't destroy a religion and confusing islam with people who profess this religion (or claim to do that) and do horrible things is not a good idea. And you can't "destroy" Israel, you can destroy it as geographical expression, but not as people. You don't have to put the question simply in terms of "destroing" something or someone, but in terms of living together every day. I live in Italy, and western Europe was the battlefield of two "World" wars, but today the countries that fought those wars are joined together in the EU, and the sons and grandsons same people that killed each other 50 years ago are working and living together.

[Stan Shannon]

Vuemme wrote: Islam is not something you can "destroy", you can't destroy a religion Islam has evolved into something which goes far beyond a mere religion. It is a civilization comprised of a finite number of governments and people. I can assure you that those governments can and must be destroyed. Vuemme wrote: I live in Italy, and western Europe was the battlefield of two "World" wars, but today the countries that fought those wars are joined together in the EU, and the sons and grandsons same people that killed each other 50 years ago are working and living together. Yes, but what if the world had stood by and done nothing as the evil that caused the war went unopposed? The evil that is flowing out of Islamic culture and Islamic politics is no less than that former evil. I do not wish to destroy anyone's religion, but when that religion becomes a rallying cry for a movement that threatens my way of life, I want it to be stopped. "There's a slew of slip 'twixt cup and lip"

[Ed2002]

Stan Shannon wrote: If that is all the Palestinians desired they could have had it easily decades ago by simply following the clear examples of peaceful non-cooperation set by Ghandhi, King and others What a dumb argument! How can a generation of people follow a nonviolent movement, when their each and every rights are taken away. Do you want them to sit back and die silently while watching their houses are demolished, their access to move around within their own cities are denied, their family members are constatntly being killed by F16 and apache helicopter?

[jan larsen]

Stan Shannon wrote: There is simply no way Israel could have withstood a movement of millions of people peacefully demanding their rights. You know it, I know, everyone on this planet, including the Palestinians, knows it. Aha.., so what you're saying is: The US could actually stop spending money on the armed forces and start giving donations to peace organizations?... In the cold war, was there any US government plans on starting big marches for peace if facing a Sovjet invasion?. If someone said "Hey look, we actually own this piece of land, and by the way we could control it much better than you guys did anyway, and face it, out culture is superior..." and that piece of land was USA, would you just hand it over?. Stan Shannon wrote: If we in the west do not rise to the challange that we are being confronted with, and do it soon, we can kiss our civilization good bye. It seems to me that you just expanded the Islamic wish to destroy Israel to destruction of the Western Society, while it seems like the first notion is actually true, then the latter is pure rubbish. It is just that our culture is at least as uncomprehendable (spelling?) and sometimes disgusting to them, as their culture is to us, and for some reason their culture is producing more fanatics who are willing To Do Something About It. I do not think you can apply the view of some mad fanatics to the entire middle east, I think that the average arabian has something better to do than running around burning stars-and-stripes. Jan "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!"