Ouch
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Ray Cassick wrote:
Now, with that said, keep in mind that you still have to live. You may not be able pay the bills if you hold out for doing something that you love. Look at it this way, even if you hate the job, if it is in the technical area that you want to be in at least you are in the business. Once you get your foot in the door that is often the first opportunity you have to show what you can do outside those mundane tasks that make up your day to day grind. Keep your ears open for opportunities where you can shine a bit. I am not saying that you need to work at a crappy boring job for years and years though so be alert also to the good times to say enough is enough and move on but at least you have added a legit job in your field to your CV. From then on it should get simpler.
Agreed. Without formal education, you really need to get at least one major item on your CV to be taken seriously. With nothing but bottom rate contracting in your CV, you're unlikely to get anything better, a year or two of full time work should really be a big help in this regard even if you find yourself hating every minute of it.
dan neely wrote:
Without formal education, you really need to get at least one major item on your CV to be taken seriously.
The major item on the CV would have to be very convincing for me. Having some articles and code snippets are nice and all, but if I were a hiring manager, I'd want to see the degree regardless of other accomplishments.
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In my reply to your posting, I made some suggestions of a positive nature. I also suggested that if you really want to become a self employed person there are hoops you need to jump through otherwise you are very likely to waste not just time but an awful amount of money. Having a proper business plan which includes an investigation into your proposals as well as the production of Profit and Loss forcasting and Cashflow forcasting spreadsheets showing realistic proposed budgets not forgetting to perform a personal survival budget. These are a vital must. If you are not sure what these are (1) Business Plan, (2) Profit & Loss forcast, (3) Cashflow forcast, (4) Personal Survival Budget etc then you had better NOT take the self employed avenue until you know exactly the reason for their existence and the exact way in which you are to use these *LEGAL* documents. And these are not the only documentation that you must create. Contact me if you require further information
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If you are not sure what these are
Darn... I can't vote this a 10.... _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I did vote 1, because what a moron decides that a high school diploma is not important? My eMail control My Blog
Albert Pascual wrote:
I did vote 1, because what a moron decides that a high school diploma is not important?
What moron decides a college degree isn't important? Bill Gates? Weird Al? Larry Ellison? Most of the self-made millionaires in the US? I do think an education is important, but you don't need school to get one. What you need is motivation. Yes, the peice of paper helps, but I don't think having no diploma will stop you from acheiving your dreams in life moreso than not going after your dreams at all. Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Oh I had to.
Invest or bail on someone? I'll admit I had to bail on a project because the project went into the toilet with no hope of coming back...
Paul Conrad wrote:
Invest or bail on someone?
I mean take the shot at MS. Jeremy Falcon
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In my reply to your posting, I made some suggestions of a positive nature. I also suggested that if you really want to become a self employed person there are hoops you need to jump through otherwise you are very likely to waste not just time but an awful amount of money. Having a proper business plan which includes an investigation into your proposals as well as the production of Profit and Loss forcasting and Cashflow forcasting spreadsheets showing realistic proposed budgets not forgetting to perform a personal survival budget. These are a vital must. If you are not sure what these are (1) Business Plan, (2) Profit & Loss forcast, (3) Cashflow forcast, (4) Personal Survival Budget etc then you had better NOT take the self employed avenue until you know exactly the reason for their existence and the exact way in which you are to use these *LEGAL* documents. And these are not the only documentation that you must create. Contact me if you require further information
CashFlow? Business Plan? Budget? What, have you been reading Robert Kiyosaki's very successful and very good books? (Which BTW everyone should read) :p [And no I don't get a commission I just recommend them because they do open a completely new way of thinking. Now I really feel guilty when I buy toys] "Until the day of his death, no man can be sure of his courage" -- Jean Anouilh
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I tried several times... I don't learn well in group settings...I get easily distracted... Second...I'm no longer interested...I mean...I know where I stand and i'm 27 years old...high school is a little late as I would be 30ish before I got into post secondary... Third, I looked into writting first/second year challenge exam for computer science...thing is...I would need money to take the exam and money to buy some of the course material (books)... I cannot afford to do this and my Dad won't help... Besides he doesn't care about my education anymore either... It's not really a problem either...as I am sure I could convince someone I'm capable...I have applications, articles, source code and code snippets to prove my skillset in many different languages and technologies... It's more of a lack of connections or business know how thats stopping me from getting anywhere... Cheers :) It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
Hockey wrote:
It's not really a problem either...as I am sure I could convince someone I'm capable...I have applications, articles, source code and code snippets to prove my skillset in many different languages and technologies...
Any real job consulting or otherwise is going to be way more difficult then anything high school or GED related. There is no job just designing, developing and writing code, especially as a consultant. The hard part is figuring out what features will really be useful and to do that you need all those skills that you would have demonstrated getting through school. You need some way to prove yourself there as well. Getting and education is a good way to do that. I don't know any others.
Hockey wrote:
It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
Your sig says it all. A genius would not live the life of a moron. All people face obstacles in life. People that get it spend their lives overcomming them, not because they are easy, but they see the long term results of hard work they are doing now. If you think you are really that smart figure out how to make it apparent to everyone.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
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I tried several times... I don't learn well in group settings...I get easily distracted... Second...I'm no longer interested...I mean...I know where I stand and i'm 27 years old...high school is a little late as I would be 30ish before I got into post secondary... Third, I looked into writting first/second year challenge exam for computer science...thing is...I would need money to take the exam and money to buy some of the course material (books)... I cannot afford to do this and my Dad won't help... Besides he doesn't care about my education anymore either... It's not really a problem either...as I am sure I could convince someone I'm capable...I have applications, articles, source code and code snippets to prove my skillset in many different languages and technologies... It's more of a lack of connections or business know how thats stopping me from getting anywhere... Cheers :) It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
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dan neely wrote:
Without formal education, you really need to get at least one major item on your CV to be taken seriously.
The major item on the CV would have to be very convincing for me. Having some articles and code snippets are nice and all, but if I were a hiring manager, I'd want to see the degree regardless of other accomplishments.
Agreed. At the moment though Hockey effectively has nothing, finding a hiring manager (probably for a startup looking for cheap labor) and staying in place for a year or two's probably a cheaper and faster way to get something meaningful than earning a BS working full time. At a minimum though taking the GED test shouldn't be too painful, and while not directly relevant to an IT job would at least be an indication of trying to get his life in order after wasting a decade.
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I did vote 1, because what a moron decides that a high school diploma is not important? My eMail control My Blog
Well, I would argue that College is what's important. High School is a glorified Day Care. But then again I was a dropout, didn't learn that much, but did take the G.E.D. and scored in the 95 % against graduating seniors. So, a diploma is worth crap. But a college education is golden. Take the G.E.D. then at least grab an Associate's or Bachelor's Degree.
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Josh Smith wrote:
If your dev skills are as up to par as you say they are, then I don't see why you couldn't get a full-time dev job with a real company
I wouldn't mind...but it would have to be doing something I enjoyed...otherwise there is no point... I've slowly lost interest in C++ development and only keep interested because the language itself is so damn cool and some of the libraries like Spirit just amaze me... PHP is it for me...or at least web development...but using C++ practically for web development is almost out of the question... I want to pursue a consultant position only because the flexibility it would afford me... Different projects every month or so... Instead of being stuck improving a project which I don't even believe in... I'll see where this consultant thing takes me...and maybe just get my answering machine to record messages and I can call them back on my land line instead of my cell phone :) Cheers :) It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
Hockey wrote:
but it would have to be doing something I enjoyed...otherwise there is no point...
Ummm... for one year you would benefit by toughing it out. Then you'd have a reference, and that's what your missing. You wouldn't have to stay at this job indefinately.
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Agreed. At the moment though Hockey effectively has nothing, finding a hiring manager (probably for a startup looking for cheap labor) and staying in place for a year or two's probably a cheaper and faster way to get something meaningful than earning a BS working full time. At a minimum though taking the GED test shouldn't be too painful, and while not directly relevant to an IT job would at least be an indication of trying to get his life in order after wasting a decade.
dan neely wrote:
At a minimum though taking the GED test shouldn't be too painful, and while not directly relevant to an IT job would at least be an indication of trying to get his life in order after wasting a decade.
Totally. It is a start.
dan neely wrote:
staying in place for a year or two's probably a cheaper and faster way to get something meaningful than earning a BS working full time.
It is possible to do. I've earned both my Bachelor's and Master's while working fulltime and paretning fulltime. I financially did it WITHOUT my parent's help and I think Hockey needs to quit feeling sorry about himself and apply himself to success rather than sulking around.
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I tried several times... I don't learn well in group settings...I get easily distracted... Second...I'm no longer interested...I mean...I know where I stand and i'm 27 years old...high school is a little late as I would be 30ish before I got into post secondary... Third, I looked into writting first/second year challenge exam for computer science...thing is...I would need money to take the exam and money to buy some of the course material (books)... I cannot afford to do this and my Dad won't help... Besides he doesn't care about my education anymore either... It's not really a problem either...as I am sure I could convince someone I'm capable...I have applications, articles, source code and code snippets to prove my skillset in many different languages and technologies... It's more of a lack of connections or business know how thats stopping me from getting anywhere... Cheers :) It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
Do they have the equivalent of the G.E.D. in Canada? Take the test then enter College. You would be there within the year.
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Thats my biggest problem... I've realized this for years...but it's difficult to make the transition from developer to businessman as they are very different skillsets... It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
I don't know where you are in Canada, but find your nearest Community Futures[^] office and go see them. They offer all sorts of marketing courses, resources, business development info., advice etc. I used to work for them - wrote a loan portfolio management system way back in the late 80's to administer their small business loans. I also wrote sample business plans and cash flows projections for their training sessions (again decades ago). A few years back I took one of their excellent marketing courses - I definitely recommend it. Really, the first thing to do is find out if what you want to do is viable. Their courses will give you what you need to know to develop a business plan, marketing plan, cash flow projections etc. It will also give you access to people who have been there many times and can review your ideas. Heck, I found out there are people in town here who will review my proposals and other documents for free. Cheers, Drew.
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CashFlow? Business Plan? Budget? What, have you been reading Robert Kiyosaki's very successful and very good books? (Which BTW everyone should read) :p [And no I don't get a commission I just recommend them because they do open a completely new way of thinking. Now I really feel guilty when I buy toys] "Until the day of his death, no man can be sure of his courage" -- Jean Anouilh
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I don't know where you are in Canada, but find your nearest Community Futures[^] office and go see them. They offer all sorts of marketing courses, resources, business development info., advice etc. I used to work for them - wrote a loan portfolio management system way back in the late 80's to administer their small business loans. I also wrote sample business plans and cash flows projections for their training sessions (again decades ago). A few years back I took one of their excellent marketing courses - I definitely recommend it. Really, the first thing to do is find out if what you want to do is viable. Their courses will give you what you need to know to develop a business plan, marketing plan, cash flow projections etc. It will also give you access to people who have been there many times and can review your ideas. Heck, I found out there are people in town here who will review my proposals and other documents for free. Cheers, Drew.
Sounds like a great resource. Would you know of the equivalent in the US perhaps? Jeremy Falcon
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Sounds like a great resource. Would you know of the equivalent in the US perhaps? Jeremy Falcon
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CashFlow? Business Plan? Budget? What, have you been reading Robert Kiyosaki's very successful and very good books? (Which BTW everyone should read) :p [And no I don't get a commission I just recommend them because they do open a completely new way of thinking. Now I really feel guilty when I buy toys] "Until the day of his death, no man can be sure of his courage" -- Jean Anouilh
Not everyone is a fan of RK[^]. Jon Sagara When I grow up, I'm changing my name to Joe Kickass! My Site | My Blog | My Articles
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I don't know of this Robert Kiyosaki, but I will google for him. My knowledge of business matters results from (1) previous self employment and (2) Business Management and Enterprise training.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
I don't know of this Robert Kiyosaki, but I will google for him.
http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html[^] Save yourself some $$ -- get the books from your library. Or, chances are that someone you know already has them. Jon Sagara When I grow up, I'm changing my name to Joe Kickass! My Site | My Blog | My Articles
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I tried several times... I don't learn well in group settings...I get easily distracted... Second...I'm no longer interested...I mean...I know where I stand and i'm 27 years old...high school is a little late as I would be 30ish before I got into post secondary... Third, I looked into writting first/second year challenge exam for computer science...thing is...I would need money to take the exam and money to buy some of the course material (books)... I cannot afford to do this and my Dad won't help... Besides he doesn't care about my education anymore either... It's not really a problem either...as I am sure I could convince someone I'm capable...I have applications, articles, source code and code snippets to prove my skillset in many different languages and technologies... It's more of a lack of connections or business know how thats stopping me from getting anywhere... Cheers :) It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
I just wanted to sum up in simpler terms what bugs me about your sig. I know you mean it as a joke kind of, but it still sends the wrong message. Our lives are not defined by what we think, but by what we do.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
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Hockey wrote:
Basically I programmed and recorded my hours and sent the guy my bill every week 15 USD/hour at a time the Canadian $$$ was low so it was about 22/hour which was good...but all good things come to an end and that expired...
Not bad considering you don't have a college education. You stated you only have a 10th or 11th grade education.
Paul Conrad wrote:
Not bad considering you don't have a college education
I do not think $15 USD is good pay for anyone in the computer field with ANY decent experience. A minimum should be $25 per hour! Here in the USA, some .NET jobs with lead experience are heading over the six digit salaries again. If a person makes the right contacts, remote work can be had for decent pay. It really does not matte what level of education you have as long as you can produce the work. Being yet another self taught drop out, I know I did my fair share of junk jobs in the early days. There are a lot of small businesses that want free copies of the software they "want" to use and cannot see paying more that beer and pizza for work. When I wised up a bit, I no longer took those small junk jobs, eventually picking up work for those that already tried the "beer and pizza" routine and found they got just what they paid for. Any good developer should place a "decent" value on their work and if they do not seem to find the work for that pay, keep looking, it is out there! Rocky <>< Latest Post: Visual Studio 2005 Standard, whats missing? Blog: www.RockyMoore.com/TheCoder/[^]