CP to rally behind MS?
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You know what we should do? We should start a campaign here at codeproject to help Microsoft in its antitrust fight by writing letters to our elected officals telling them to back off. Maybe Chris could get in touch with MS, and they could tell us who to contact and provide us with strategies and insight. I believe in fair competion and I think what Oracle and Sun are doing is just wrong. Also, Chris could set up a forum here where we could discuss ways to prevent Oracle and Sun from harming our livelyhoods. Remember they are attacking us, as well as Microsoft with their sneaky tactics. MS has the most developers. What happens to the economy when we loose our jobs thanks to the states? We need to be more vocal in our support of Microsoft.
Say it 3 times fast "Predatory Monopoly"... They've been tried, convicted, punished and tried, convicted, and punished (with some options still open) again for not complying with the first punishment. Your assertion that this trials have some how hurt our livelyhood is absurd, having one company setting the standard hurts your livelyhood. Having one company edge out smaller, better companies because they simply have a bigger bankroll and not better products is the real threat.
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You know what we should do? We should start a campaign here at codeproject to help Microsoft in its antitrust fight by writing letters to our elected officals telling them to back off. Maybe Chris could get in touch with MS, and they could tell us who to contact and provide us with strategies and insight. I believe in fair competion and I think what Oracle and Sun are doing is just wrong. Also, Chris could set up a forum here where we could discuss ways to prevent Oracle and Sun from harming our livelyhoods. Remember they are attacking us, as well as Microsoft with their sneaky tactics. MS has the most developers. What happens to the economy when we loose our jobs thanks to the states? We need to be more vocal in our support of Microsoft.
April First was last week. But nice try, anyways!
Visual Studio Favorites - improve your development! GUIgui - skin your apps without XP
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Martin Marvinski wrote: When you get a computer with MS Windows, you instinctively know what to do!!! Thats why it succeeded. This is utter crap. Perhaps you and I "instinctively" know what to do, but I've spent many hours pulling my hair out trying to explain/demonstrate a doubleclick. Personally, I think PCs should be for CS grads and nerds like us. (And since I got sick and f*cking tired of MS bullshit, I've moved to a geek platform. I code for Windows to pay the bills - I code for Linux because I'm cool.) And I think it's up to MS and others to come up with a truly "instinctive" machine for the general population. Windows most definitely is NOT for everyone. J
Jamie Hale wrote: This is utter crap. Perhaps you and I "instinctively" know what to do, but I've spent many hours pulling my hair out trying to explain/demonstrate a doubleclick. I don't belive this. Any eight year old can figure Windows out. You turn it on, and then point and click. Jamie Hale wrote: Personally, I think PCs should be for CS grads and nerds like us Thats the attitude that SUN and Oracle have. Thats why they have to resort to lawsuits. Jamie Hale wrote: I've moved to a geek platform. I code for Windows to pay the bills - I code for Linux because I'm cool.) Don't get me wrong. I use Linux internally for a mail server, web server, and as a LDAP server. But I also use SQL Server. I run a consulting buisness, and many times I put Linux on the client's servers(I bid for most jobs, and if I save on license fees, its more money for me), but I *always* make sure Windows is on the desktop. Jamie Hale wrote: And I think it's up to MS and others to come up with a truly "instinctive" machine for the general population. Windows most definitely is NOT for everyone. MS did that with "BOB". No one bought it because it insulted their intelligence.
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You know what we should do? We should start a campaign here at codeproject to help Microsoft in its antitrust fight by writing letters to our elected officals telling them to back off. Maybe Chris could get in touch with MS, and they could tell us who to contact and provide us with strategies and insight. I believe in fair competion and I think what Oracle and Sun are doing is just wrong. Also, Chris could set up a forum here where we could discuss ways to prevent Oracle and Sun from harming our livelyhoods. Remember they are attacking us, as well as Microsoft with their sneaky tactics. MS has the most developers. What happens to the economy when we loose our jobs thanks to the states? We need to be more vocal in our support of Microsoft.
I'm a programmer. The local market mandates that i program for Windows. If the market requested that i instead program for Unix, or the Macintosh, or Java, i would do so. If i was programming purely for my own enjoyment, it would definately not be for Windows. I used OS/2 back when Warp came out, and let me tell you, whatever its problems, it was at least a step in the right direction. I never developed on Windows 95 or 98; they were unstable enough just using them. Finally with Windows 2000, Microsoft provides a decent platform, NINE YEARS after OS/2 2.0 was initially released. I'll try to avoid publicly bashing MS as long as i'm developing for Windows, but that is as far as i'll go._**
Developers that like shiny objects also dig case mods and scratch-and-sniff stickers.
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Klaus Probst, The Lounge
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Martin Marvinski wrote: Windows succeeded because MS does usability tests. No one else did this back then!! Whatever. Remember CUA ? IBM supposedly spent millions on "the perfect" user interface guidelines. In the end, all they proved was that their users felt most comfortable with (suprise suprise!) mainframe-style glass-teletype interfaces. The problem with useability testing is, you can only compair useability interfaces you actually have: useability testing on a Windows-style application will allow you to make the best-darn Windows-style application out there maybe, but it won't help you one bit when you need to design a Web-style application, nor will it suggest that maybe a Windows-style application is not ideal for your users. Martin Marvinski wrote: !! When you get a computer with MS Windows, you instinctively know what to do!!! True enough - because i've been using Windows for seven years. Sit a new user down infront of a Windows box & watch them struggle. I've yet to see that training someone completely unfamiliar with Windows to use Word is any easier than training them to use WordPerfect for DOS - and i'm talking about basic stuff like entering the text and getting page breaks in the right spot. The only advantage Windows has is that most programs tend to look and work similarly - which is more to the credit of the application developers than Microsoft. Back when Lotus 123 was king and nearly all spreadsheets used / menus, you could sit down in front of an unknown spreadsheet application and be using it in a very short time. Useability testing? No, a Lotus developer had a stubby right finger & couldn't reach the ALT key ;P . But because it was the leader, everyone aped it, and the users benefited as they only had to learn one retarded interface. Martin Marvinski wrote: Thats why it succeeded. Windows succeeded through good marketing and inept competitors. If it had totally been a pile of crap (i.e. Windows 1&2), it would have failed, but it's success does not mean that it is somehow the apex of quality. A large part of Microsoft's success has been due to being in the right place at the right time._**
Developers that like shiny objects also dig case mods and scratch-and-sniff stickers.
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I agree -- you've said it very well. Regards, Alvaro Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them. - Albert Einstein
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Isn't this how "The Empire" got started in Starwars? Shifty trade practices? Perhaps Emperor Bill will take on a Sith apprentice one day... (Cue "Duel of the Fates...") :eek: Why not throw away a dime? I throw away ten pennies all the time.
kevnar wrote: Isn't this how "The Empire" got started in Starwars? Shifty trade practices? Perhaps Emperor Bill will take on a Sith apprentice one day... (Cue "Duel of the Fates...") It's already hapenning! :) recursive adj. See RECURSIVE.
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You know what we should do? We should start a campaign here at codeproject to help Microsoft in its antitrust fight by writing letters to our elected officals telling them to back off. Maybe Chris could get in touch with MS, and they could tell us who to contact and provide us with strategies and insight. I believe in fair competion and I think what Oracle and Sun are doing is just wrong. Also, Chris could set up a forum here where we could discuss ways to prevent Oracle and Sun from harming our livelyhoods. Remember they are attacking us, as well as Microsoft with their sneaky tactics. MS has the most developers. What happens to the economy when we loose our jobs thanks to the states? We need to be more vocal in our support of Microsoft.
My two cents: A lot of people want to see Microsoft completely destroyed. I used to be sort of nuetral, but after reading posts on CP I'm a lot more informed. I don't want to see MS destroyed, but I do agree that other companies should be given a fighting chance. Monopolies are bad news no matter what field you're talking about. Inevitably people start to get exploited. Eventually if computers start running more and more of our lives for us, and Microsoft is running more and more computers, what happens then? Will we switch from a democracy to a corpocracy? And what will become of the children? :eek: (JJ) I'm wondering if the technical failures Martin pointed out in competing OSes were possibly a result of Microsoft's aggressive marketing campaign on some level or other. It's not impossible... :suss: Why not throw away a dime? I throw away ten pennies all the time.
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Tim Smith wrote: MS/Linux/FreeBSD true. but put Mac into that mix and the answer's not so easy. i've wanted a mac for a long time, but i have too much invested in MS apps to make the switch. -c
A man usually falls in love with a woman who asks the kinds of questions he is able to answer. Ronald Colman Smaller Animals Software, Inc.
Not to mention that middle finger (for the right button click).... what would you do with it? :-O Wait, don't answer. :-D Seriously though, I wonder if adding a second button to the Mac mouse would have made a difference. A while back I was working for a company that contemplated porting to the Mac and one of the complaints was: only one button on the mouse. Needless to say, the project was canned along with the manager who suggested it. Regards, Alvaro Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them. - Albert Einstein
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OS/2 failed because of IBMs own mismanagement. But I have to agree that the IBM/MS-DOS contract probably did more for MS than anything else. I just don't agree that people use MS because they are too stupid to know better. If given a choice for a home computer between MS/Linux/FreeBSD, MS would win out. It is much easier to install than L/F. There is also the application support for MS. Not to mention the real deciding factor, GAMES. :) Tim Smith I know what you're thinking punk, you're thinking did he spell check this document? Well, to tell you the truth I kinda forgot myself in all this excitement. But being this here's CodeProject, the most powerful forums in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question, Do I feel lucky? Well do ya punk?
Tim Smith wrote: But I have to agree that the IBM/MS-DOS contract probably did more for MS than anything else. Just as an observation, from memory, MS slipped in a clause that they could allow MS-DOS to used on non IBM machines, and this initiated the whole PC- Clone industry. At the time IBM didn't appear to realise the significance of that clause. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"
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My two cents: A lot of people want to see Microsoft completely destroyed. I used to be sort of nuetral, but after reading posts on CP I'm a lot more informed. I don't want to see MS destroyed, but I do agree that other companies should be given a fighting chance. Monopolies are bad news no matter what field you're talking about. Inevitably people start to get exploited. Eventually if computers start running more and more of our lives for us, and Microsoft is running more and more computers, what happens then? Will we switch from a democracy to a corpocracy? And what will become of the children? :eek: (JJ) I'm wondering if the technical failures Martin pointed out in competing OSes were possibly a result of Microsoft's aggressive marketing campaign on some level or other. It's not impossible... :suss: Why not throw away a dime? I throw away ten pennies all the time.
kevnar wrote: Will we switch from a democracy to a corpocracy? I think we already are, although I'm unsure what a corpocracy is 100% still. kevnar wrote: And what will become of the children? Paid slavery, I guess. :-( Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"
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My two cents: A lot of people want to see Microsoft completely destroyed. I used to be sort of nuetral, but after reading posts on CP I'm a lot more informed. I don't want to see MS destroyed, but I do agree that other companies should be given a fighting chance. Monopolies are bad news no matter what field you're talking about. Inevitably people start to get exploited. Eventually if computers start running more and more of our lives for us, and Microsoft is running more and more computers, what happens then? Will we switch from a democracy to a corpocracy? And what will become of the children? :eek: (JJ) I'm wondering if the technical failures Martin pointed out in competing OSes were possibly a result of Microsoft's aggressive marketing campaign on some level or other. It's not impossible... :suss: Why not throw away a dime? I throw away ten pennies all the time.
Ok. Why don't those OEMs just install OS/2? Becauase Windows is better!!!!! They can just say screw you MS. I'm sure IBM will be happy to license OS/2 to them. They don't want too because OS/2 is crap that no one wants. The OEMs are using the government to get windows more cheaply. They are trying to steal from MS. They already get a steep discount, but they are still not satisfied!! MS has a right to give the more helpful OEMs a better deal because they do more for MS!! kevnar wrote: Monopolies are bad news no matter what field you're talking about Not true. Natural Monopolies are allowed by law. MS is a natural monopoly IMHO. Its just that lousy SUN and Oracle decided to bribe government to hurt MS, but SUN and Oracle don't even make products for consumers!!! Of course MS has a monopoly if no one else makes a consumer OS!!. kevnar wrote: Eventually if computers start running more and more of our lives for us, and Microsoft is running more and more computers, what happens then SUN is the villan here. It is trying to get the national ID cards going, so is Oracle. They want to run the software that monitors you and your children. MS just wants to sell consumer software.
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Chris Losinger wrote: they did not. they marketed better than everyone else If the average person couldn't use Windows becuase it was too complicated, then it wouldn't sell no matter how much it was marketed(word of mouth). If the consumer can't figure out how to do basic things they can't use it!!! They shouldn't be expected to have a CS degree to check their email or type a document. BTW Apple's only problem was that they priced their products too high. Linux/Unix is only good for experienced Pros with CS degrees. Windows allows people who need computers but aren't programmers to do their work with a minimal learning curve.
all basically true. but, MS has been out-marketing (legally, or otherwise, depending on who you believe) since before Windows - remember DR-DOS ? i really can't think of a single case where their products have won on their own merits, when there's been real competition. MS-DOS ? no. there were better products out there, but MS managed to get their stuff bundled with new PCs. Windows 1 sucked. Windows 2 sucked. Windows 3.1 was useable. and by the time Win95 came along, they had driven off all competition in the OS market - people stopped trying to make an OS, knowing they couldn't get it bundled on new PCs. IE ? no. there were better products out there, but MS managed to get their stuff bundled with new PCs. the whole browser-is-part-of-the-OS story was nonsense. Office ? no. there were better products out there, but MS managed to get their stuff bundled with new PCs. when real competition shows up - MS just bundles. i like having a nearly universal platform to develop on, but MS itself sucks. -c
A man usually falls in love with a woman who asks the kinds of questions he is able to answer. Ronald Colman Smaller Animals Software, Inc.
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No. Read my bio.
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Ok. Why don't those OEMs just install OS/2? Becauase Windows is better!!!!! They can just say screw you MS. I'm sure IBM will be happy to license OS/2 to them. They don't want too because OS/2 is crap that no one wants. The OEMs are using the government to get windows more cheaply. They are trying to steal from MS. They already get a steep discount, but they are still not satisfied!! MS has a right to give the more helpful OEMs a better deal because they do more for MS!! kevnar wrote: Monopolies are bad news no matter what field you're talking about Not true. Natural Monopolies are allowed by law. MS is a natural monopoly IMHO. Its just that lousy SUN and Oracle decided to bribe government to hurt MS, but SUN and Oracle don't even make products for consumers!!! Of course MS has a monopoly if no one else makes a consumer OS!!. kevnar wrote: Eventually if computers start running more and more of our lives for us, and Microsoft is running more and more computers, what happens then SUN is the villan here. It is trying to get the national ID cards going, so is Oracle. They want to run the software that monitors you and your children. MS just wants to sell consumer software.
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Chris Losinger wrote: they did not. they marketed better than everyone else If the average person couldn't use Windows becuase it was too complicated, then it wouldn't sell no matter how much it was marketed(word of mouth). If the consumer can't figure out how to do basic things they can't use it!!! They shouldn't be expected to have a CS degree to check their email or type a document. BTW Apple's only problem was that they priced their products too high. Linux/Unix is only good for experienced Pros with CS degrees. Windows allows people who need computers but aren't programmers to do their work with a minimal learning curve.
Martin Marvinski wrote: If the average person couldn't use Windows becuase it was too complicated, then it wouldn't sell no matter how much it was marketed(word of mouth). Marvin, I dispute that, as I personally know people who have purchased a PC with Windows and are unable to operate it. Mainly senior citizen type people. But they were sold a PC an OS and Internet package. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"
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Ok. Why don't those OEMs just install OS/2? Becauase Windows is better!!!!! They can just say screw you MS. I'm sure IBM will be happy to license OS/2 to them. They don't want too because OS/2 is crap that no one wants. The OEMs are using the government to get windows more cheaply. They are trying to steal from MS. They already get a steep discount, but they are still not satisfied!! MS has a right to give the more helpful OEMs a better deal because they do more for MS!! kevnar wrote: Monopolies are bad news no matter what field you're talking about Not true. Natural Monopolies are allowed by law. MS is a natural monopoly IMHO. Its just that lousy SUN and Oracle decided to bribe government to hurt MS, but SUN and Oracle don't even make products for consumers!!! Of course MS has a monopoly if no one else makes a consumer OS!!. kevnar wrote: Eventually if computers start running more and more of our lives for us, and Microsoft is running more and more computers, what happens then SUN is the villan here. It is trying to get the national ID cards going, so is Oracle. They want to run the software that monitors you and your children. MS just wants to sell consumer software.
Ok. Why don't those OEMs just install OS/2? Becauase Windows is better!!!!! I could say that you are either a blatant liar, or you are so firetrucking stupid you are a shame to humankind. It could also be that you are under the age of 15 (12?) and don't know what you're talking about, and therefore should not have been let near a 'net connection to comment on this issue. Suffice it to say, you're both too clueless and ignorant to write what you just wrote. /Mike
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all basically true. but, MS has been out-marketing (legally, or otherwise, depending on who you believe) since before Windows - remember DR-DOS ? i really can't think of a single case where their products have won on their own merits, when there's been real competition. MS-DOS ? no. there were better products out there, but MS managed to get their stuff bundled with new PCs. Windows 1 sucked. Windows 2 sucked. Windows 3.1 was useable. and by the time Win95 came along, they had driven off all competition in the OS market - people stopped trying to make an OS, knowing they couldn't get it bundled on new PCs. IE ? no. there were better products out there, but MS managed to get their stuff bundled with new PCs. the whole browser-is-part-of-the-OS story was nonsense. Office ? no. there were better products out there, but MS managed to get their stuff bundled with new PCs. when real competition shows up - MS just bundles. i like having a nearly universal platform to develop on, but MS itself sucks. -c
A man usually falls in love with a woman who asks the kinds of questions he is able to answer. Ronald Colman Smaller Animals Software, Inc.
Chris Losinger wrote: i like having a nearly universal platform to develop on, but MS itself sucks. My feelings as well Chris, I can't be bothered now trying to make stuff multi paltform. SO I actually hope MS stays at the head of the pack as a monopoly. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"
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Martin Marvinski wrote: Remember they are attacking us are you a programmer or a Microsoft Programmer? i'm a programmer. -c
A man usually falls in love with a woman who asks the kinds of questions he is able to answer. Ronald Colman Smaller Animals Software, Inc.
Chris Losinger wrote: are you a programmer or a Microsoft Programmer? I am proudly a Microsoft programmer!
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Ok. Why don't those OEMs just install OS/2? Becauase Windows is better!!!!! I could say that you are either a blatant liar, or you are so firetrucking stupid you are a shame to humankind. It could also be that you are under the age of 15 (12?) and don't know what you're talking about, and therefore should not have been let near a 'net connection to comment on this issue. Suffice it to say, you're both too clueless and ignorant to write what you just wrote. /Mike
Who do you work for? Sun, IBM, or Oracle. Why don't you start an OEM online and sell PCs with OS/2. You'll see how many orders you get. Just register a domain name, Install linux and PostgreSQL and buy the parts as the orders come in(If you even get any:-D ). Just leave me and MS alone. I won't butt into your buisness, and you just stay out of MS's. Remember its you UNIX guys who are starting this antitrust Sh*t.
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Jamie Hale wrote: This is utter crap. Perhaps you and I "instinctively" know what to do, but I've spent many hours pulling my hair out trying to explain/demonstrate a doubleclick. I don't belive this. Any eight year old can figure Windows out. You turn it on, and then point and click. Jamie Hale wrote: Personally, I think PCs should be for CS grads and nerds like us Thats the attitude that SUN and Oracle have. Thats why they have to resort to lawsuits. Jamie Hale wrote: I've moved to a geek platform. I code for Windows to pay the bills - I code for Linux because I'm cool.) Don't get me wrong. I use Linux internally for a mail server, web server, and as a LDAP server. But I also use SQL Server. I run a consulting buisness, and many times I put Linux on the client's servers(I bid for most jobs, and if I save on license fees, its more money for me), but I *always* make sure Windows is on the desktop. Jamie Hale wrote: And I think it's up to MS and others to come up with a truly "instinctive" machine for the general population. Windows most definitely is NOT for everyone. MS did that with "BOB". No one bought it because it insulted their intelligence.
Martin Marvinski wrote: I don't belive this. Any eight year old can figure Windows out. You turn it on, and then point and click. I'm sure tracking an animal and killing it with a spear is instinctive to Kalihari Bushmen as well. you're presuming what seems simple to you is simple. Yes, a child can pick up point and click, *if* someone is there to explain it. Double clicking, dragging an outline, etc. is a bit harder. I have a 6 year old, so I can speak from experience. Martin Marvinski wrote: MS did that with "BOB". No one bought it because it insulted their intelligence. No-one bought it because it was crap and ran like a dog. If it was because it insulted their intelligence, no-one would have bought OFfice since the BOB code got turned into Office Assistant. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. "I'm somewhat suspicious of STL though. My (test,experimental) program worked first time. Whats that all about??!?! - Jon Hulatt, 22/3/2002