CP to rally behind MS?
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My two cents: A lot of people want to see Microsoft completely destroyed. I used to be sort of nuetral, but after reading posts on CP I'm a lot more informed. I don't want to see MS destroyed, but I do agree that other companies should be given a fighting chance. Monopolies are bad news no matter what field you're talking about. Inevitably people start to get exploited. Eventually if computers start running more and more of our lives for us, and Microsoft is running more and more computers, what happens then? Will we switch from a democracy to a corpocracy? And what will become of the children? :eek: (JJ) I'm wondering if the technical failures Martin pointed out in competing OSes were possibly a result of Microsoft's aggressive marketing campaign on some level or other. It's not impossible... :suss: Why not throw away a dime? I throw away ten pennies all the time.
kevnar wrote: Will we switch from a democracy to a corpocracy? I think we already are, although I'm unsure what a corpocracy is 100% still. kevnar wrote: And what will become of the children? Paid slavery, I guess. :-( Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"
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My two cents: A lot of people want to see Microsoft completely destroyed. I used to be sort of nuetral, but after reading posts on CP I'm a lot more informed. I don't want to see MS destroyed, but I do agree that other companies should be given a fighting chance. Monopolies are bad news no matter what field you're talking about. Inevitably people start to get exploited. Eventually if computers start running more and more of our lives for us, and Microsoft is running more and more computers, what happens then? Will we switch from a democracy to a corpocracy? And what will become of the children? :eek: (JJ) I'm wondering if the technical failures Martin pointed out in competing OSes were possibly a result of Microsoft's aggressive marketing campaign on some level or other. It's not impossible... :suss: Why not throw away a dime? I throw away ten pennies all the time.
Ok. Why don't those OEMs just install OS/2? Becauase Windows is better!!!!! They can just say screw you MS. I'm sure IBM will be happy to license OS/2 to them. They don't want too because OS/2 is crap that no one wants. The OEMs are using the government to get windows more cheaply. They are trying to steal from MS. They already get a steep discount, but they are still not satisfied!! MS has a right to give the more helpful OEMs a better deal because they do more for MS!! kevnar wrote: Monopolies are bad news no matter what field you're talking about Not true. Natural Monopolies are allowed by law. MS is a natural monopoly IMHO. Its just that lousy SUN and Oracle decided to bribe government to hurt MS, but SUN and Oracle don't even make products for consumers!!! Of course MS has a monopoly if no one else makes a consumer OS!!. kevnar wrote: Eventually if computers start running more and more of our lives for us, and Microsoft is running more and more computers, what happens then SUN is the villan here. It is trying to get the national ID cards going, so is Oracle. They want to run the software that monitors you and your children. MS just wants to sell consumer software.
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Chris Losinger wrote: they did not. they marketed better than everyone else If the average person couldn't use Windows becuase it was too complicated, then it wouldn't sell no matter how much it was marketed(word of mouth). If the consumer can't figure out how to do basic things they can't use it!!! They shouldn't be expected to have a CS degree to check their email or type a document. BTW Apple's only problem was that they priced their products too high. Linux/Unix is only good for experienced Pros with CS degrees. Windows allows people who need computers but aren't programmers to do their work with a minimal learning curve.
all basically true. but, MS has been out-marketing (legally, or otherwise, depending on who you believe) since before Windows - remember DR-DOS ? i really can't think of a single case where their products have won on their own merits, when there's been real competition. MS-DOS ? no. there were better products out there, but MS managed to get their stuff bundled with new PCs. Windows 1 sucked. Windows 2 sucked. Windows 3.1 was useable. and by the time Win95 came along, they had driven off all competition in the OS market - people stopped trying to make an OS, knowing they couldn't get it bundled on new PCs. IE ? no. there were better products out there, but MS managed to get their stuff bundled with new PCs. the whole browser-is-part-of-the-OS story was nonsense. Office ? no. there were better products out there, but MS managed to get their stuff bundled with new PCs. when real competition shows up - MS just bundles. i like having a nearly universal platform to develop on, but MS itself sucks. -c
A man usually falls in love with a woman who asks the kinds of questions he is able to answer. Ronald Colman Smaller Animals Software, Inc.
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No. Read my bio.
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Ok. Why don't those OEMs just install OS/2? Becauase Windows is better!!!!! They can just say screw you MS. I'm sure IBM will be happy to license OS/2 to them. They don't want too because OS/2 is crap that no one wants. The OEMs are using the government to get windows more cheaply. They are trying to steal from MS. They already get a steep discount, but they are still not satisfied!! MS has a right to give the more helpful OEMs a better deal because they do more for MS!! kevnar wrote: Monopolies are bad news no matter what field you're talking about Not true. Natural Monopolies are allowed by law. MS is a natural monopoly IMHO. Its just that lousy SUN and Oracle decided to bribe government to hurt MS, but SUN and Oracle don't even make products for consumers!!! Of course MS has a monopoly if no one else makes a consumer OS!!. kevnar wrote: Eventually if computers start running more and more of our lives for us, and Microsoft is running more and more computers, what happens then SUN is the villan here. It is trying to get the national ID cards going, so is Oracle. They want to run the software that monitors you and your children. MS just wants to sell consumer software.
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Chris Losinger wrote: they did not. they marketed better than everyone else If the average person couldn't use Windows becuase it was too complicated, then it wouldn't sell no matter how much it was marketed(word of mouth). If the consumer can't figure out how to do basic things they can't use it!!! They shouldn't be expected to have a CS degree to check their email or type a document. BTW Apple's only problem was that they priced their products too high. Linux/Unix is only good for experienced Pros with CS degrees. Windows allows people who need computers but aren't programmers to do their work with a minimal learning curve.
Martin Marvinski wrote: If the average person couldn't use Windows becuase it was too complicated, then it wouldn't sell no matter how much it was marketed(word of mouth). Marvin, I dispute that, as I personally know people who have purchased a PC with Windows and are unable to operate it. Mainly senior citizen type people. But they were sold a PC an OS and Internet package. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"
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Ok. Why don't those OEMs just install OS/2? Becauase Windows is better!!!!! They can just say screw you MS. I'm sure IBM will be happy to license OS/2 to them. They don't want too because OS/2 is crap that no one wants. The OEMs are using the government to get windows more cheaply. They are trying to steal from MS. They already get a steep discount, but they are still not satisfied!! MS has a right to give the more helpful OEMs a better deal because they do more for MS!! kevnar wrote: Monopolies are bad news no matter what field you're talking about Not true. Natural Monopolies are allowed by law. MS is a natural monopoly IMHO. Its just that lousy SUN and Oracle decided to bribe government to hurt MS, but SUN and Oracle don't even make products for consumers!!! Of course MS has a monopoly if no one else makes a consumer OS!!. kevnar wrote: Eventually if computers start running more and more of our lives for us, and Microsoft is running more and more computers, what happens then SUN is the villan here. It is trying to get the national ID cards going, so is Oracle. They want to run the software that monitors you and your children. MS just wants to sell consumer software.
Ok. Why don't those OEMs just install OS/2? Becauase Windows is better!!!!! I could say that you are either a blatant liar, or you are so firetrucking stupid you are a shame to humankind. It could also be that you are under the age of 15 (12?) and don't know what you're talking about, and therefore should not have been let near a 'net connection to comment on this issue. Suffice it to say, you're both too clueless and ignorant to write what you just wrote. /Mike
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all basically true. but, MS has been out-marketing (legally, or otherwise, depending on who you believe) since before Windows - remember DR-DOS ? i really can't think of a single case where their products have won on their own merits, when there's been real competition. MS-DOS ? no. there were better products out there, but MS managed to get their stuff bundled with new PCs. Windows 1 sucked. Windows 2 sucked. Windows 3.1 was useable. and by the time Win95 came along, they had driven off all competition in the OS market - people stopped trying to make an OS, knowing they couldn't get it bundled on new PCs. IE ? no. there were better products out there, but MS managed to get their stuff bundled with new PCs. the whole browser-is-part-of-the-OS story was nonsense. Office ? no. there were better products out there, but MS managed to get their stuff bundled with new PCs. when real competition shows up - MS just bundles. i like having a nearly universal platform to develop on, but MS itself sucks. -c
A man usually falls in love with a woman who asks the kinds of questions he is able to answer. Ronald Colman Smaller Animals Software, Inc.
Chris Losinger wrote: i like having a nearly universal platform to develop on, but MS itself sucks. My feelings as well Chris, I can't be bothered now trying to make stuff multi paltform. SO I actually hope MS stays at the head of the pack as a monopoly. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"
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Martin Marvinski wrote: Remember they are attacking us are you a programmer or a Microsoft Programmer? i'm a programmer. -c
A man usually falls in love with a woman who asks the kinds of questions he is able to answer. Ronald Colman Smaller Animals Software, Inc.
Chris Losinger wrote: are you a programmer or a Microsoft Programmer? I am proudly a Microsoft programmer!
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Ok. Why don't those OEMs just install OS/2? Becauase Windows is better!!!!! I could say that you are either a blatant liar, or you are so firetrucking stupid you are a shame to humankind. It could also be that you are under the age of 15 (12?) and don't know what you're talking about, and therefore should not have been let near a 'net connection to comment on this issue. Suffice it to say, you're both too clueless and ignorant to write what you just wrote. /Mike
Who do you work for? Sun, IBM, or Oracle. Why don't you start an OEM online and sell PCs with OS/2. You'll see how many orders you get. Just register a domain name, Install linux and PostgreSQL and buy the parts as the orders come in(If you even get any:-D ). Just leave me and MS alone. I won't butt into your buisness, and you just stay out of MS's. Remember its you UNIX guys who are starting this antitrust Sh*t.
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Jamie Hale wrote: This is utter crap. Perhaps you and I "instinctively" know what to do, but I've spent many hours pulling my hair out trying to explain/demonstrate a doubleclick. I don't belive this. Any eight year old can figure Windows out. You turn it on, and then point and click. Jamie Hale wrote: Personally, I think PCs should be for CS grads and nerds like us Thats the attitude that SUN and Oracle have. Thats why they have to resort to lawsuits. Jamie Hale wrote: I've moved to a geek platform. I code for Windows to pay the bills - I code for Linux because I'm cool.) Don't get me wrong. I use Linux internally for a mail server, web server, and as a LDAP server. But I also use SQL Server. I run a consulting buisness, and many times I put Linux on the client's servers(I bid for most jobs, and if I save on license fees, its more money for me), but I *always* make sure Windows is on the desktop. Jamie Hale wrote: And I think it's up to MS and others to come up with a truly "instinctive" machine for the general population. Windows most definitely is NOT for everyone. MS did that with "BOB". No one bought it because it insulted their intelligence.
Martin Marvinski wrote: I don't belive this. Any eight year old can figure Windows out. You turn it on, and then point and click. I'm sure tracking an animal and killing it with a spear is instinctive to Kalihari Bushmen as well. you're presuming what seems simple to you is simple. Yes, a child can pick up point and click, *if* someone is there to explain it. Double clicking, dragging an outline, etc. is a bit harder. I have a 6 year old, so I can speak from experience. Martin Marvinski wrote: MS did that with "BOB". No one bought it because it insulted their intelligence. No-one bought it because it was crap and ran like a dog. If it was because it insulted their intelligence, no-one would have bought OFfice since the BOB code got turned into Office Assistant. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. "I'm somewhat suspicious of STL though. My (test,experimental) program worked first time. Whats that all about??!?! - Jon Hulatt, 22/3/2002
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Chris Losinger wrote: i like having a nearly universal platform to develop on, but MS itself sucks. My feelings as well Chris, I can't be bothered now trying to make stuff multi paltform. SO I actually hope MS stays at the head of the pack as a monopoly. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"
****Colin Davies wrote: So I actually hope MS stays at the head of the pack as a monopoly I don't want them to continue their monopoly. Having real competition would much better for the users of computers. "There is a fine line between lunacy and genius; it is my goal in life to keep them guessing just where the line lies..." -- Unknown
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Tim Smith wrote: MS/Linux/FreeBSD true. but put Mac into that mix and the answer's not so easy. i've wanted a mac for a long time, but i have too much invested in MS apps to make the switch. -c
A man usually falls in love with a woman who asks the kinds of questions he is able to answer. Ronald Colman Smaller Animals Software, Inc.
You saved youself some money. Richard If a packet hits a pocket on a socket on a port, and the bus is interrupted at a very last resort, and the access of the memory makes your floppy disk abort, then the socket packet pocket has an error to report. If your cursor finds a menu item followed by a dash, and the double-clicking icon puts your window in the trash, and your data is corrupted 'cause the index doesn't hash, then your situation's hopeless and your system's gonna crash!!!
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Martin Marvinski wrote: BTW Sun doesn't make a user friendly OS. I have to ask... Have you ever used Solaris? It's straight GUI, and compared to other Unixes it *is* friendlier. Don't get me wrong, I don't like Java much and I think Sun is full of crap for the suit, but a lawsuit doesn't make an OS any worse IMHO. Jeremy L. Falcon "The One Who Said, 'The One Who Said...'" Homepage : Feature Article : Sonork = 100.16311
rm -r If a packet hits a pocket on a socket on a port, and the bus is interrupted at a very last resort, and the access of the memory makes your floppy disk abort, then the socket packet pocket has an error to report. If your cursor finds a menu item followed by a dash, and the double-clicking icon puts your window in the trash, and your data is corrupted 'cause the index doesn't hash, then your situation's hopeless and your system's gonna crash!!!
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You know what we should do? We should start a campaign here at codeproject to help Microsoft in its antitrust fight by writing letters to our elected officals telling them to back off. Maybe Chris could get in touch with MS, and they could tell us who to contact and provide us with strategies and insight. I believe in fair competion and I think what Oracle and Sun are doing is just wrong. Also, Chris could set up a forum here where we could discuss ways to prevent Oracle and Sun from harming our livelyhoods. Remember they are attacking us, as well as Microsoft with their sneaky tactics. MS has the most developers. What happens to the economy when we loose our jobs thanks to the states? We need to be more vocal in our support of Microsoft.
Martin Marvinski wrote: You know what we should do? We should start a campaign here at codeproject to help Microsoft in its antitrust fight by writing letters to our elected officals telling them to back off. Yeah, that'll work. We'll, um, write letters. Martin Marvinski wrote: Maybe Chris could get in touch with MS, and they could tell us who to contact and provide us with strategies and insight. I believe in fair competion and I think what Oracle and Sun are doing is just wrong. Read that again. You obviously know nothing of Microsoft's history. What comes around, goes around. Martin Marvinski wrote: Also, Chris could set up a forum here where we could discuss ways to prevent Oracle and Sun from harming our livelyhoods. I know, let's kill Scott McNealy and Larry Ellison. Larry is in my sights already, because the tools that come with Oracle are so very, very bad. Sitting around talking is probably the most constructive thing we can do, it will at least create the illusion we can do something to affect what Sun or Oracle are doing. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. "I'm somewhat suspicious of STL though. My (test,experimental) program worked first time. Whats that all about??!?! - Jon Hulatt, 22/3/2002
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Tim Smith wrote: MS/Linux/FreeBSD true. but put Mac into that mix and the answer's not so easy. i've wanted a mac for a long time, but i have too much invested in MS apps to make the switch. -c
A man usually falls in love with a woman who asks the kinds of questions he is able to answer. Ronald Colman Smaller Animals Software, Inc.
It's funny how arguments on ease of use always side step the Mac. I'm with you. I'd LOVE a notebook running OSX, but I have too much invested in M$, and I doubt I could find work on the Mac, so why invest time and money in it ? The Mac comes with a C++ compiler that is more standards compliant than VC6. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. "I'm somewhat suspicious of STL though. My (test,experimental) program worked first time. Whats that all about??!?! - Jon Hulatt, 22/3/2002
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Ok. Why don't those OEMs just install OS/2? Becauase Windows is better!!!!! They can just say screw you MS. I'm sure IBM will be happy to license OS/2 to them. They don't want too because OS/2 is crap that no one wants. The OEMs are using the government to get windows more cheaply. They are trying to steal from MS. They already get a steep discount, but they are still not satisfied!! MS has a right to give the more helpful OEMs a better deal because they do more for MS!! kevnar wrote: Monopolies are bad news no matter what field you're talking about Not true. Natural Monopolies are allowed by law. MS is a natural monopoly IMHO. Its just that lousy SUN and Oracle decided to bribe government to hurt MS, but SUN and Oracle don't even make products for consumers!!! Of course MS has a monopoly if no one else makes a consumer OS!!. kevnar wrote: Eventually if computers start running more and more of our lives for us, and Microsoft is running more and more computers, what happens then SUN is the villan here. It is trying to get the national ID cards going, so is Oracle. They want to run the software that monitors you and your children. MS just wants to sell consumer software.
Martin Marvinski wrote: Ok. Why don't those OEMs just install OS/2? Actually a number of local OEMs are starting to install Linux. Generally OEM's install Windows because their customers expect to see it. It has been marketed to them, and it allows them to do what they want - run Office and play games. Martin Marvinski wrote: They don't want too because OS/2 is crap that no one wants. OS/2 beat the *hell* out of Windows when it was alive. It needs to be compared to it's contemparies - Win 3.x and Windows 95. On that basis, it is a clear winner. So was beta, the winner is not always the best product. Martin Marvinski wrote: The OEMs are using the government to get windows more cheaply. They are trying to steal from MS. the OEM's who steal from M$ buy one copy and distribute it over and over. That is probably a major reason for product activation. Martin Marvinski wrote: Of course MS has a monopoly if no one else makes a consumer OS!!. You must be stupid - read the top of your post, where you recognise that others have done so. You've mentioned OS/2, it's not the only alternative. Martin Marvinski wrote: SUN is the villan here. It is trying to get the national ID cards going, so is Oracle. They want to run the software that monitors you and your children. MS just wants to sell consumer software. rotfl !!!! In the US you guys are so hung up on the illusion of freedom that you think it is protected by you having guns in the house and being able to kill each other ( but not have enough firepower to do anything to the government ). You think anyone could get away with introducing a computerised ID card ? The Bible Belt will scream 666, go into their bunkers and start drinking Draino, or however these cult types like to kill themselves nowadays. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. "I'm somewhat suspicious of STL though. My (test,experimental) program worked first time. Whats that all about??!?! - Jon Hulatt, 22/3/2002
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Who do you work for? Sun, IBM, or Oracle. Why don't you start an OEM online and sell PCs with OS/2. You'll see how many orders you get. Just register a domain name, Install linux and PostgreSQL and buy the parts as the orders come in(If you even get any:-D ). Just leave me and MS alone. I won't butt into your buisness, and you just stay out of MS's. Remember its you UNIX guys who are starting this antitrust Sh*t.
Martin Marvinski wrote: Just leave me and MS alone Why should M$ be left alone ? Why should they not be publically accountable ? Martin Marvinski wrote: Remember its you UNIX guys who are starting this antitrust Sh*t. Whatever do you mean ? As I've said, Linux installed PC's are for sale in the backwater where I live. People are buying them as a cheap web box, because they don't need office or games. I happen to think that Solaris is a nice OS, although not as slick as XP, for example, the truth is I am sick of XP, and I am sick of having my hand held, it actually makes it harder to do stuff. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. "I'm somewhat suspicious of STL though. My (test,experimental) program worked first time. Whats that all about??!?! - Jon Hulatt, 22/3/2002
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Martin Marvinski wrote: I don't belive this. Any eight year old can figure Windows out. You turn it on, and then point and click. I'm sure tracking an animal and killing it with a spear is instinctive to Kalihari Bushmen as well. you're presuming what seems simple to you is simple. Yes, a child can pick up point and click, *if* someone is there to explain it. Double clicking, dragging an outline, etc. is a bit harder. I have a 6 year old, so I can speak from experience. Martin Marvinski wrote: MS did that with "BOB". No one bought it because it insulted their intelligence. No-one bought it because it was crap and ran like a dog. If it was because it insulted their intelligence, no-one would have bought OFfice since the BOB code got turned into Office Assistant. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. "I'm somewhat suspicious of STL though. My (test,experimental) program worked first time. Whats that all about??!?! - Jon Hulatt, 22/3/2002
Christian Graus wrote: I have a 6 year old, so I can speak from experience Your child is too young still. When he/she reaches the age of eight he/she will probably be programming .NET, let alone using the PC.
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Christian Graus wrote: I have a 6 year old, so I can speak from experience Your child is too young still. When he/she reaches the age of eight he/she will probably be programming .NET, let alone using the PC.
She's been at it since she was three, and she does pretty well. But double clicking and dragging a focus rect are both still lost on her. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. "I'm somewhat suspicious of STL though. My (test,experimental) program worked first time. Whats that all about??!?! - Jon Hulatt, 22/3/2002