What to look for in a new hire?
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If it's a good looking girl, hire her any way, since she'll help improve the overall morale of the work environment :rolleyes: More seriously though, the Microsoft interview process of multiple interview, 1-2 HR rounds, 1-2 puzzle rounds, 1-2 technical rounds, 1 personal interview etc. might usually work out. It's hard for someone to hide his weaknesses through such an intense process - and you'd also be able to dig out his not-so-obvious talents. You should also consider hiring people on a probation period (say 1 month) after which you decide whether you want to keep them or lose them. In the past, I've once had to tell a probation candidate that we weren't planning on keeping her, and it was pretty awkward for me - so make sure you have someone else to do that job in case it's required. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
Josh Smith wrote:
So, what can you look for in someone to determine if they are any good, without hiring them first?
Their website, their blog, their articles on CP. In other hitech professions, people are often required to publish if they are expected to advance in their careers. At least those interested in advancing. It's funny, I had this discussion just recently with my neighbor. Even a pharmacist is expected to publish if they want to get a job with the FDA, apparently. If I want someone "good", then frankly, to me, that means they are working at being good, and that means they are out there publishing, writing, discussing technology, etc. So, nowadays, that's my criteria. I'm sure it would eliminate a lot of people that are also good, but it also helps weed out the people that are really bad. Marc XPressTier
Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
Damn, tough crowd. Guess I better schedule some time and publish. Heh... funny, Wrox sent me an email back in 2001 to work on the C++.NET book when .NET was just coming out, but I turned it down due to time constraints. I was already averaging 60 hours a week. That plus actually having a life, [lots of hobbies, like music and cooking] has put me in a place where I have to decide what I spend that extra time on. I've told myself time and again I'd write that CP article, but just haven't gotten there, one crunch time after another, coupled with my innate sense of laziness has stalled it. Guess I better get to cracking in me spare time and publish those bits that have collected over the years. I have a delegate like class that's part of my C++ framework that I could publish I guess... it maps to member functions without requiring a static method. And you can toss it about to respond to events, and it doens't require boost. Ok, I'll do that this weekend. There, its in print I'm now committed. ;) This statement is false.
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From what I can tell, there is no trait or accomplishment that you can look for in someone to determine if they are actually good at developing software, without hiring the person and evaluating their work. Am I correct about this? Graduating college with a degree in CS is as good an indicator as whether the person can whistle. I've known people, one of them a good friend, who graduated with a CS degree and can't program their way out of a paper bag. So, schooling is not an indicator. Industry experience does not necessarily prove anything, either. There are certainly people in the dev world who plain old suck. They might have been programming since I was riding a tricycle, but they're really not any better now than they were then (perhaps worse). Certifications...too easy to cheat. So, what can you look for in someone to determine if they are any good, without hiring them first? :confused: :josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Well, when you open up a new-hire, they should have a complete set of major organs, like a heart, both lungs, a liver, kidneys, those kind of things. While you're in there digging around, you may as well check for a brain...
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
From what I can tell, there is no trait or accomplishment that you can look for in someone to determine if they are actually good at developing software, without hiring the person and evaluating their work. Am I correct about this? Graduating college with a degree in CS is as good an indicator as whether the person can whistle. I've known people, one of them a good friend, who graduated with a CS degree and can't program their way out of a paper bag. So, schooling is not an indicator. Industry experience does not necessarily prove anything, either. There are certainly people in the dev world who plain old suck. They might have been programming since I was riding a tricycle, but they're really not any better now than they were then (perhaps worse). Certifications...too easy to cheat. So, what can you look for in someone to determine if they are any good, without hiring them first? :confused: :josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Commitment. The tigress is here :-D
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From what I can tell, there is no trait or accomplishment that you can look for in someone to determine if they are actually good at developing software, without hiring the person and evaluating their work. Am I correct about this? Graduating college with a degree in CS is as good an indicator as whether the person can whistle. I've known people, one of them a good friend, who graduated with a CS degree and can't program their way out of a paper bag. So, schooling is not an indicator. Industry experience does not necessarily prove anything, either. There are certainly people in the dev world who plain old suck. They might have been programming since I was riding a tricycle, but they're really not any better now than they were then (perhaps worse). Certifications...too easy to cheat. So, what can you look for in someone to determine if they are any good, without hiring them first? :confused: :josh: My WPF Blog[^]
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Josh Smith wrote:
So, what can you look for in someone to determine if they are any good, without hiring them first?
Their website, their blog, their articles on CP. In other hitech professions, people are often required to publish if they are expected to advance in their careers. At least those interested in advancing. It's funny, I had this discussion just recently with my neighbor. Even a pharmacist is expected to publish if they want to get a job with the FDA, apparently. If I want someone "good", then frankly, to me, that means they are working at being good, and that means they are out there publishing, writing, discussing technology, etc. So, nowadays, that's my criteria. I'm sure it would eliminate a lot of people that are also good, but it also helps weed out the people that are really bad. Marc XPressTier
Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
Marc Clifton wrote:
If I want someone "good", then frankly, to me, that means they are working at being good, and that means they are out there publishing, writing, discussing technology, etc.
I have to agree with you Marc. The willingness to publish (in any of its forms: papers, jounals, magazine, book, web) shows a degree of enthusiasm that separates the chaff from the wheat.
"The key, the whole key, and nothing but the key, so help me Codd"
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I'd check for fleas and ticks. Same kinda stuff you'd look for when you're buying a puppy.
kryzchek wrote:
Same kinda stuff you'd look for when you're buying a puppy.
I wouldn't want to work with a bunch of neutered guys....although we could have a kick-ass castrati choir. ;) :josh: My WPF Blog[^]
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Damn, tough crowd. Guess I better schedule some time and publish. Heh... funny, Wrox sent me an email back in 2001 to work on the C++.NET book when .NET was just coming out, but I turned it down due to time constraints. I was already averaging 60 hours a week. That plus actually having a life, [lots of hobbies, like music and cooking] has put me in a place where I have to decide what I spend that extra time on. I've told myself time and again I'd write that CP article, but just haven't gotten there, one crunch time after another, coupled with my innate sense of laziness has stalled it. Guess I better get to cracking in me spare time and publish those bits that have collected over the years. I have a delegate like class that's part of my C++ framework that I could publish I guess... it maps to member functions without requiring a static method. And you can toss it about to respond to events, and it doens't require boost. Ok, I'll do that this weekend. There, its in print I'm now committed. ;) This statement is false.
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
Ok, I'll do that this weekend.
Excellent! Though I don't hardly do any C++ work anymore, I'll be looking for it come Monday. :) Marc XPressTier
Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
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Chris S Kaiser wrote:
Ok, I'll do that this weekend.
Excellent! Though I don't hardly do any C++ work anymore, I'll be looking for it come Monday. :) Marc XPressTier
Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
Ok, I'll do it. I'll have to make sure I comment it, and write a nice article to go with it. :laugh: There goes this neighborhood. What's the ol' adage? Better to keep your mouth shut and let people think your Link2006 than to open it and remove all doubt. This statement is false.
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From what I can tell, there is no trait or accomplishment that you can look for in someone to determine if they are actually good at developing software, without hiring the person and evaluating their work. Am I correct about this? Graduating college with a degree in CS is as good an indicator as whether the person can whistle. I've known people, one of them a good friend, who graduated with a CS degree and can't program their way out of a paper bag. So, schooling is not an indicator. Industry experience does not necessarily prove anything, either. There are certainly people in the dev world who plain old suck. They might have been programming since I was riding a tricycle, but they're really not any better now than they were then (perhaps worse). Certifications...too easy to cheat. So, what can you look for in someone to determine if they are any good, without hiring them first? :confused: :josh: My WPF Blog[^]
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From what I can tell, there is no trait or accomplishment that you can look for in someone to determine if they are actually good at developing software, without hiring the person and evaluating their work. Am I correct about this? Graduating college with a degree in CS is as good an indicator as whether the person can whistle. I've known people, one of them a good friend, who graduated with a CS degree and can't program their way out of a paper bag. So, schooling is not an indicator. Industry experience does not necessarily prove anything, either. There are certainly people in the dev world who plain old suck. They might have been programming since I was riding a tricycle, but they're really not any better now than they were then (perhaps worse). Certifications...too easy to cheat. So, what can you look for in someone to determine if they are any good, without hiring them first? :confused: :josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Yes I agree it's difficult and the best approach I've ever seen is to give a sort but "simple" programming task. The one I've been given (and used since) was a simple program that opened a file read the number from it, same with a second file adds the "lines" of numbers together and sends the result to a third. Ask the, to handle exceptions etc and make the names / locations of the files fixed. Like you have experienced those that look on paper can't usually do the work and we have found so many that can't do that simple task! Given a full Visual Stuidio IDE (which 90% of people would be used to) with full help etc and as much time as they need, only about 1 in 10 that we interviewed could write a decent bit of code, which is after all what you are after. I would disagree with the publishing / discussion way of recuriting as some people (like me for instance) a) Have no web site of their own, b) Too busy to spend a lot of time of forums etc! and only contribute once in a while. The previous company I worked for had the best most talented broup of engineers I have ever worked with and as far as I know not one publised articles etc as like me there were all too busy / had no interest in doing so. Andy
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An infinite number of gorillas at an infinite number of keyboards? The tigress is here :-D
:laugh: Precisely. They will end up describing [edit]how to hire[/edit] the perfect candidate. Of course, we'll all be dead by then. Jon Sagara When I grow up, I'm changing my name to Joe Kickass! My Site | My Blog | My Articles -- modified at 12:39 Wednesday 19th July, 2006
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Commitment. The tigress is here :-D
If there's several of them you may have a band. ;P Anna :rose: Currently working mostly on: Visual Lint :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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From what I can tell, there is no trait or accomplishment that you can look for in someone to determine if they are actually good at developing software, without hiring the person and evaluating their work. Am I correct about this? Graduating college with a degree in CS is as good an indicator as whether the person can whistle. I've known people, one of them a good friend, who graduated with a CS degree and can't program their way out of a paper bag. So, schooling is not an indicator. Industry experience does not necessarily prove anything, either. There are certainly people in the dev world who plain old suck. They might have been programming since I was riding a tricycle, but they're really not any better now than they were then (perhaps worse). Certifications...too easy to cheat. So, what can you look for in someone to determine if they are any good, without hiring them first? :confused: :josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Ask them to bring the source for some older work (two years? one year). Review the code If you suddenly hears, listen carefully "hmm, what was I thinking..." "uch, I'm an idiot" "oops, that doesn't look good" and the best one "f*ck, I should have done it so-n-so" Then you at least knows that they still are improving. All you have to decide are if you're happy with where they were two years ago... If all you hear are clear explanations, no hesitation what so ever -- They haven't improved or... don't play poker with them... The third case are hesitations, "what's that supposed to do", "hmmmmmmm" -- They haven't improved and they can't read their own old source. This test only tells if they still are improving (and learning). In my book, that's a golden star -- a big one;)
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From what I can tell, there is no trait or accomplishment that you can look for in someone to determine if they are actually good at developing software, without hiring the person and evaluating their work. Am I correct about this? Graduating college with a degree in CS is as good an indicator as whether the person can whistle. I've known people, one of them a good friend, who graduated with a CS degree and can't program their way out of a paper bag. So, schooling is not an indicator. Industry experience does not necessarily prove anything, either. There are certainly people in the dev world who plain old suck. They might have been programming since I was riding a tricycle, but they're really not any better now than they were then (perhaps worse). Certifications...too easy to cheat. So, what can you look for in someone to determine if they are any good, without hiring them first? :confused: :josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Josh Smith wrote:
So, what can you look for in someone to determine if they are any good, without hiring them first?
i look at their CP member ID. lower = better. Do the chickens have large talons?
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From what I can tell, there is no trait or accomplishment that you can look for in someone to determine if they are actually good at developing software, without hiring the person and evaluating their work. Am I correct about this? Graduating college with a degree in CS is as good an indicator as whether the person can whistle. I've known people, one of them a good friend, who graduated with a CS degree and can't program their way out of a paper bag. So, schooling is not an indicator. Industry experience does not necessarily prove anything, either. There are certainly people in the dev world who plain old suck. They might have been programming since I was riding a tricycle, but they're really not any better now than they were then (perhaps worse). Certifications...too easy to cheat. So, what can you look for in someone to determine if they are any good, without hiring them first? :confused: :josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Josh Smith wrote:
So, what can you look for in someone to determine if they are any good, without hiring them first? :confused:
CP ID number. Prime is better.
---- Scripts i’ve known... CPhog 1.0.0.0 - make CP better. Forum Bookmark 0.2.5 - bookmark forum posts on Pensieve Print forum 0.1.2 - printer-friendly forums Expand all 1.0 - Expand all messages In-place Delete 1.0 - AJAX-style post delete Syntax 0.1 - Syntax highlighting for code blocks in the forums
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Josh Smith wrote:
So, what can you look for in someone to determine if they are any good, without hiring them first? :confused:
CP ID number. Prime is better.
---- Scripts i’ve known... CPhog 1.0.0.0 - make CP better. Forum Bookmark 0.2.5 - bookmark forum posts on Pensieve Print forum 0.1.2 - printer-friendly forums Expand all 1.0 - Expand all messages In-place Delete 1.0 - AJAX-style post delete Syntax 0.1 - Syntax highlighting for code blocks in the forums
Shog9 wrote:
CP ID number. Prime is better.
I would have thought that multiples of 17 were ideal... :josh: My WPF Blog[^]
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If it's a good looking girl, hire her any way, since she'll help improve the overall morale of the work environment :rolleyes: More seriously though, the Microsoft interview process of multiple interview, 1-2 HR rounds, 1-2 puzzle rounds, 1-2 technical rounds, 1 personal interview etc. might usually work out. It's hard for someone to hide his weaknesses through such an intense process - and you'd also be able to dig out his not-so-obvious talents. You should also consider hiring people on a probation period (say 1 month) after which you decide whether you want to keep them or lose them. In the past, I've once had to tell a probation candidate that we weren't planning on keeping her, and it was pretty awkward for me - so make sure you have someone else to do that job in case it's required. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
If it's a good looking girl, hire her any way, since she'll help improve the overall morale of the work environment
That could be true. I mean some people are known as being a catalyst in a team, they could help people jell in together and bring the team closer...of course if they don't start fighting over her:) But yeah, she doesn't necesarily needs to be gorgeous and it's prererable she could do some coding:doh: regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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From what I can tell, there is no trait or accomplishment that you can look for in someone to determine if they are actually good at developing software, without hiring the person and evaluating their work. Am I correct about this? Graduating college with a degree in CS is as good an indicator as whether the person can whistle. I've known people, one of them a good friend, who graduated with a CS degree and can't program their way out of a paper bag. So, schooling is not an indicator. Industry experience does not necessarily prove anything, either. There are certainly people in the dev world who plain old suck. They might have been programming since I was riding a tricycle, but they're really not any better now than they were then (perhaps worse). Certifications...too easy to cheat. So, what can you look for in someone to determine if they are any good, without hiring them first? :confused: :josh: My WPF Blog[^]
When are you good at software development? A while ago (before dropping out of the rat race) I was dev manager for an ISV. Here are my criteria (if anyone is interested) for a good dev: 1. Ability to read (particularly the #@#)&^ spec document 2. The following of best practice 3. Ability to spell 4. Speak to a client without causing trouble 5. STICK TO THE JOB AT HAND - cool is a distant, poor second to making the deadline 6. The ability to take crticism without causing a labour dispute 7. Readable code (according to the project standards) with comments 8. Debugging instinct 9. Lazy devs work best - use the tools at hand - if you want to write apps in Notepad and compile with csc because it is hardcore - do it on your own time No offense to the publishing guys, but I have only had bad experiences with the article writing guru's - I want someone to do the job at hand, not complicate the project so that you can write about it. Luckily I am back to coding - sorry no articles from me - I have a life AND deadlines! Other tips I have found useful when interviewing: - 1. Have a whiteboard session with the lucky victim - have them present the architecture of a solution to the entire team - this tests resourcefullness and grace under pressure 2. Turn the interview around - let them ask you questions - this catches a lot of guys out. 3. Ask personal questions - such as "what happens when you lose your temper?" - this one always had spectacular results 4. Steer away from the normal questions - you are not a recruiter 5. Do not belittle the victim - embarrassment is OK but you don't want to feel like taking a shower after the interview Good luck - sounds like you need it LOL !
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Josh Smith wrote:
So, what can you look for in someone to determine if they are any good, without hiring them first?
Their website, their blog, their articles on CP. In other hitech professions, people are often required to publish if they are expected to advance in their careers. At least those interested in advancing. It's funny, I had this discussion just recently with my neighbor. Even a pharmacist is expected to publish if they want to get a job with the FDA, apparently. If I want someone "good", then frankly, to me, that means they are working at being good, and that means they are out there publishing, writing, discussing technology, etc. So, nowadays, that's my criteria. I'm sure it would eliminate a lot of people that are also good, but it also helps weed out the people that are really bad. Marc XPressTier
Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
Marc Clifton wrote:
Their website, their blog, their articles on CP.
Just like any other artist, you need a portfolio :)**
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