My two-cents worth (or 5 cents for those without 1 cent pieces anymore)
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Trollslayer wrote:
When some is brought up to be jewish from birth (e.g. circumcism) before they have a chance to decide what they believe?
You think that's bad? How 'bout being brought up Minnesotan from birth - cold winters, hot summers, covered in mosquito bites, eating at potluck before you even understand what "luck" really means... But does anyone ever think to talk to parents about the emotional scarring caused by the child hearing "ufdah!" whenever they're picked up? Noooo....
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It should be about faith not convention.
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Over the last couple of...well, weeks, the Israel/Lebanon debate has been RAGING. I have a few things to say on all the talk. 1. Stop putting "Jews" in one collective group. I've seen "the Jews" a couple of times (although it being from one person). You know who also called us "the Jews?" Hitler. So stop making us sound like one evil group ready to take over the Middle East. Not all Jews are citizens of Israel and not all citizens of Israel are Jews. Not all Jews have the same feelings on what is going on in the Middle East. Not all Israeli citizens have the same feelings on what is going on in the Middle East. Stop making assumptions for these groups. 2. I've seen a lot of media quotes or links to the media, and in the next breath people saying you can't believe the media. It's one or the other folks. We can't believe CNN because it's left-wing, we can't believe Fox because it's right-winged. Anyone who doesn't agree with the conservative right is a "left-winged extremist." I find it hypocritical. Personally, I read both CNN and FOX News online and I don't see a huge difference. But maybe I should stop reading only the entertainment sections. :cool: 3. We all have strong opinions on the subject. I don't think anyone here is going to change the mind of another person in the Soapbox. And using terribly graphic photographs is just trolling. So I propose everyone just cool down. Let's talk about some other stuff going on around the world. And let's stop calling each other names. We're programmers and smarter than that. (Or at least write it out in binary! That would be funny.) Have a good weekend everyone. Stay safe and stay cool. Literally and figuratively. ..that's my 2-cents, and no, you can't ask for change.:cool:
leckey wrote:
not all citizens of Israel are Jews
I spent a couple of days trying to get some people around here to understand that. Thank you.
leckey wrote:
We can't believe CNN because it's left-wing, we can't believe Fox because it's right-winged.
What do you think is a sensible position ? My position is this - all media sources are biased, a viewing of differing sources can give a reasonable picture of what's going on, but there's no real way to know you've got the whole story.
leckey wrote:
And using terribly graphic photographs is just trolling.
Agreed - I'm yet to follow one of those links.
leckey wrote:
Let's talk about some other stuff going on around the world.
OK - I'm going to see Iron Maiden !!!
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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The term "Israelite" came from anyone who descended from Jacob (in the Bible). Jacob's name was changed to "Israel" meaning, one who struggles with God, hence his descendants were Israelites. He had 12 sons (the 12 tribes of Israel): Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issacher, Zebulon, Joseph (the "coat of many colors" guy), Benjamin. Those 12 sons and their descedants are the people that comprised the ancient nation Israel. The term "Jew" did not exist at this point. After King Solomon's reign as king of Israel, there was kind of civil war, where the nation of Israel split into 2 nations: in the south, the nation of Judah formed with Jerusalem as its capital. It was named Judah because the tribes of Judah and Benjamin made up most of the nation. In the north, a new nation of Ephraim (sometimes referred to as the nation of Israel) was created, containing the other 10 tribes of Israel. Some several hundred years BC, the northern nation of Israel was taken into captivity by Assyria, never to return. In the south, the nation of Judah remained. They were taken captive by Babylon some years later, but they returned after 70 years of captivity (the book of Nehemiah in the Bible was written by a returning Judah-ite at this time). The term "Jew" didn't come into play until much later, when Greek and Roman cultures called them Judahites. Arabs would call a Jew "yehud" in Arabic which means "Judah", and is derived from the Hebrew "Yehuda", which is where we get the English word "Judah". So, the term "Jew" was finally meant to mean a Judahite, or any member of the southern kingdom of Judah. Most Jews today call themselves a "Jew" if they descend from any of the 12 tribes, regardless of their religious association. Jesus descended from Judah, so he was Jew. (This is also the reason Jesus is referred to as "the Lion of Judah"). Paul in the New Testament descended from Benjamin, so he was also a Jew. In more modern times, Albert Einstein descended from Judah; he was a Jew, despite being an atheist-leaning pantheist. In modern Israel, a majority of the populace are secular Jews. So you see, being a Jew is more about lineage than religion. It literally means someone who descended from Judah, or someone living in the southern kingdom of Judah. Here's a little blog post[^] I wro
Where were you when I was trying to explain this a few days ago ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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The term "Israelite" came from anyone who descended from Jacob (in the Bible). Jacob's name was changed to "Israel" meaning, one who struggles with God, hence his descendants were Israelites. He had 12 sons (the 12 tribes of Israel): Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issacher, Zebulon, Joseph (the "coat of many colors" guy), Benjamin. Those 12 sons and their descedants are the people that comprised the ancient nation Israel. The term "Jew" did not exist at this point. After King Solomon's reign as king of Israel, there was kind of civil war, where the nation of Israel split into 2 nations: in the south, the nation of Judah formed with Jerusalem as its capital. It was named Judah because the tribes of Judah and Benjamin made up most of the nation. In the north, a new nation of Ephraim (sometimes referred to as the nation of Israel) was created, containing the other 10 tribes of Israel. Some several hundred years BC, the northern nation of Israel was taken into captivity by Assyria, never to return. In the south, the nation of Judah remained. They were taken captive by Babylon some years later, but they returned after 70 years of captivity (the book of Nehemiah in the Bible was written by a returning Judah-ite at this time). The term "Jew" didn't come into play until much later, when Greek and Roman cultures called them Judahites. Arabs would call a Jew "yehud" in Arabic which means "Judah", and is derived from the Hebrew "Yehuda", which is where we get the English word "Judah". So, the term "Jew" was finally meant to mean a Judahite, or any member of the southern kingdom of Judah. Most Jews today call themselves a "Jew" if they descend from any of the 12 tribes, regardless of their religious association. Jesus descended from Judah, so he was Jew. (This is also the reason Jesus is referred to as "the Lion of Judah"). Paul in the New Testament descended from Benjamin, so he was also a Jew. In more modern times, Albert Einstein descended from Judah; he was a Jew, despite being an atheist-leaning pantheist. In modern Israel, a majority of the populace are secular Jews. So you see, being a Jew is more about lineage than religion. It literally means someone who descended from Judah, or someone living in the southern kingdom of Judah. Here's a little blog post[^] I wro
Judah Himango wrote:
the northern nation of Israel was taken into captivity by Assyria, never to return.
Judah Himango wrote:
if they descend from any of the 12 tribes
How do you reconcile these two statements ? ( Just interested )
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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It should be about faith not convention.
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Well, strangly I am a left-handed, female Native American Jew. Population One! I'm covered!:-D
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Judah Himango wrote:
the northern nation of Israel was taken into captivity by Assyria, never to return.
Judah Himango wrote:
if they descend from any of the 12 tribes
How do you reconcile these two statements ? ( Just interested )
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Some of the 10 northern tribes had a few people scattered down south into Judah. For example, the Levites were the priests who were scattered across both nations. Simeonites didn't take their allotted land in the north, so they ended up being scattered between the two now. To clarify, "Jews" are typically Judahites or Benjaminites, as those are the 2 major tribes making up the southern nation of Judah. However, because some tribes had some scattered members between both nations, any modern Jew would be someone that descended from either. Most modern Jews, however, are Judahites; there are very few that can trace descent through any other tribe.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Messianic Instrumentals (with audio) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Funny, I don't remember boxes for Jew or Arab or Celt on any of those stupid governmental forms that ask what your race is. The main reason people are claiming everything is a race these days is exactly those forms. They want some special treatment from the government or they want to call anyone who disgrees with them racist which has become a very derogatory word. -- modified at 21:23 Friday 28th July, 2006
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance.
Unfortunately for Jews, we do have a lot of truely racist people that hate us, I don't think I need to cite any examples.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Messianic Instrumentals (with audio) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Where were you when I was trying to explain this a few days ago ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
I rarely risk jumping into the soapbox. I can waste 5 hours of a work day in here arguing. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Messianic Instrumentals (with audio) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Unfortunately for Jews, we do have a lot of truely racist people that hate us, I don't think I need to cite any examples.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Messianic Instrumentals (with audio) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Honestly though, even as a [insert color here] person, there's almost always going to be people who hate you. They don't even have to be a different [color/religion/race] than you. Take a walk with your girlfriend (or wife) in downtown Minneapolis sometime (yeah I'm from the TC as well), and watch almost everyone give you a dirty look. Yeah they might not be shooting at you, but some of them sure seem like they want to.
Chris Richardson
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Honestly though, even as a [insert color here] person, there's almost always going to be people who hate you. They don't even have to be a different [color/religion/race] than you. Take a walk with your girlfriend (or wife) in downtown Minneapolis sometime (yeah I'm from the TC as well), and watch almost everyone give you a dirty look. Yeah they might not be shooting at you, but some of them sure seem like they want to.
Chris Richardson
Of course; hate comes in whenever there's difference of anything, it seems. Jews have seen this probably more than most people groups, IMO.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Messianic Instrumentals (with audio) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Unfortunately for Jews, we do have a lot of truely racist people that hate us, I don't think I need to cite any examples.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Messianic Instrumentals (with audio) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
Unfortunately for Jews, we do have a lot of truely racist people that hate us, I don't think I need to cite any examples.
There's a special term for people who hate Jews, antisemitic. While they have much in common with racists, technically they aren't. BTW, how do you reconcile your alignment with the Jews and being so hot an bothered about Jesus?
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance.
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Judah Himango wrote:
Unfortunately for Jews, we do have a lot of truely racist people that hate us, I don't think I need to cite any examples.
There's a special term for people who hate Jews, antisemitic. While they have much in common with racists, technically they aren't. BTW, how do you reconcile your alignment with the Jews and being so hot an bothered about Jesus?
The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance.
I find it interesting that you're surprised at my being Jewish and believing in Jesus. After all, Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, the Lion of Judah, and is--hands down--the most influential rabbi in the history of the world. His early followers, including all 12 apostles, were Jews. Most of the New Testament was written by Jews. Even Paul, the guy spreading the Jesus message out to the gentiles, and writer of a good deal of the New Testament, also was a Jew. That said, I don't believe in Jesus because he's Jewish. I believe in Jesus because I believe that Jesus was and is the Messiah promised in the Jewish Scripture. While there are plent of religious, Scriptural and prophetic reasons for this --reasons you probably aren't interested in--Jesus also did something even secular folks can see: he brought billions of people in the world--completely non-Jewish people--to worship the God of Israel through him. He opened up access to God so that both the insider Jews and the outsider non-Jews could come to God and stand as equals before God. In other words, Jesus set it up so that it doesn't matter whether you're a Jew or a non-Jew; that doesn't make or break you before God. Those things are a few of the things I think only Messiah could accomplish.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Messianic Instrumentals (with audio) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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fat_boy wrote:
Do the same for muslims then.
Absolutely, I agree and totally concur. One thing that gets me though, is that many times I'll hear this same thing from Muslims, and think, "Ok, he's right, not all Muslims adhere to such crazy, genocidal ideas." But then a week or so later, I hear those same people defending groups like Hamas, Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, Islamic Jihad group, Hizbullah, or the views of the Iranian President Ahmadinejad. I mean, if you guys really don't stand for the genocidal notions of removal of the Jewish race and government from Israel--complete destruction of Israel--please say so and don't defend groups that espouse such terrible things. I suspect your saying such honorable things isn't backed up by your real-world views; I hope I'm wrong about that.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Messianic Instrumentals (with audio) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
if you guys really don't stand for the genocidal notions of removal of the Jewish race
You should know that I am just an anglo saxon, beer drinking, irreligious, cunt. Yes, I condemn all terorist groups, all religious crazies who kill in the name of their god. All hypocrites, all the ignorant scared fools who drag the world in to pain and darkness. What really grips my shit is the hypocrisy of the US. Just because a bunch of fundamental christians think that untill all the Jews are in Israel the messianic ewra wont begin, the US backs Israel to the hilt in whatever it does. So we have three groups of fundamental crazies in the problem. Not a problem unless one of them is a world super power...
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
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Judah Himango wrote:
if you guys really don't stand for the genocidal notions of removal of the Jewish race
You should know that I am just an anglo saxon, beer drinking, irreligious, cunt. Yes, I condemn all terorist groups, all religious crazies who kill in the name of their god. All hypocrites, all the ignorant scared fools who drag the world in to pain and darkness. What really grips my shit is the hypocrisy of the US. Just because a bunch of fundamental christians think that untill all the Jews are in Israel the messianic ewra wont begin, the US backs Israel to the hilt in whatever it does. So we have three groups of fundamental crazies in the problem. Not a problem unless one of them is a world super power...
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
Christian support of Israel is not simply because it will make Jesus come back; I can't speak for every believer in Jesus, but I know it certainly isn't the case for myself or the folks I converse with. I may not fit into your stereotype since I myself am a Jew, but I have visited many churches and have talked with a wide variety of Christians, and I can say by experience that Christians generally love Jews for several reasons that are a lot deeper than the simpleton's explanation that "Jesus will come back". :) I see plainly how outsiders try to deride such love and support of the Jewish people. Why do Christians support Israel? So Jesus will come back. Why do Christians support Israel financially and visit Israel? So Jesus will come back. Why do Christians send aide to the families of injured or deceased Israeli soldiers? So Jesus will come back. Why do Christians go to the ballgame on Sunday? So Jesus will come back. ;) It's nearly laughable, but at the same time kind of sad that some people have such a deep ignorance and misunderstanding of the situation. Let me elaborate on the real reasons: the Jewish people are spiritual brothers of Christians; Paul talks about this in the New Testament, how followers of Jesus should be blessing the Jews rather than cursing them. The New Testament goes as far as to say that Christians are grafted into the tree of Israel (spiritually speaking) by embracing the Messiah of Israel, Jesus. Christians share so much in common with the Jews: a common belief in the one-and-only God, the entire Jewish Scripture, the basis for our morality, to name a few. Christians aim to love the Jewish people for these reasons. Even the Christian Scriptures tell us to love the Jews, pray for the peace of Jerusalem, bless Israel, and so on. I'd be glad to give you references for all that if you're interested. In addition, it was Jesus who said the greatest of all the commandments in Scripture is to love God and to love others. Christians, I'm sure you'll be quick to point out, have missed big time on the latter, especially in our relationship to the Jewish people in the past, but we've learned our lesson there and are changing. On the political front, Israel as a nation is a beacon of democracy in a sea Islamic theocracies. They share much of our value system, which makes sense as the current value system is one based in Judeo-Christian values; it's no wonder the United States supports Israel politically. The folks disliking this political support typically have either of the followin