Vista: Do you blame anyone, and if so, who? [modified]
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[or should that be "whom"?] The media have made Vista bashing - more accurately, Vista timetable bashing - almost a reflex action in the same way you say "um" or "er" to fill in gaps of sentences. But I'm wondering: Do you care? Has it affected you materially or strategically? And if you are looking to point the finger who are you pointing it at - the developers, the middle managers, the marketers, or the guys at the top? I was just trying to imagine what it would be like to be a dev working on Vista and be in a position of constantly having to defend your work when it's not even been released yet. I was wondering if this would be demoralising (why bother...) or motivating (this will shut them up!). -- modified at 22:36 Wednesday 16th August, 2006
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Seems to me that a big part of the problem was too many "visionaries" promising silly, but flashy (and relatively hard to develop), features with very little solid reasoning of why businesses need Vista versus a solid XP service pack 3. Ultimately, the state of Vista betrays the state of Microsoft itself. It is unfocused and badly managed at the highest levels and often appears more concerned at being big than in actually serving its customers and stockholders. The sorry state of Visual Studio 2005 is but another example of this. (Disbanding the IE team then putting it back together is probably an even better example.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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[or should that be "whom"?] The media have made Vista bashing - more accurately, Vista timetable bashing - almost a reflex action in the same way you say "um" or "er" to fill in gaps of sentences. But I'm wondering: Do you care? Has it affected you materially or strategically? And if you are looking to point the finger who are you pointing it at - the developers, the middle managers, the marketers, or the guys at the top? I was just trying to imagine what it would be like to be a dev working on Vista and be in a position of constantly having to defend your work when it's not even been released yet. I was wondering if this would be demoralising (why bother...) or motivating (this will shut them up!). -- modified at 22:36 Wednesday 16th August, 2006
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
I like the wait. XP has only gotten better in the years and as cool as Vista is I don't want to learn a new OS every year. Calm down everybody... its not like they aren't going to release it.
Matt Newman
Even the very best tools in the hands of an idiot will produce something of little or no value. - Chris Meech on Idiots -
Well, unless my work takes me there I doubt I'll be using any of the new features of Vista, so I can wait. I'm still waiting to see what becomes of OGL on it before I go and burn down MS campus.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I'm still waiting to see what becomes of OGL on it before I go and burn down MS campus.
OGL is already handled. MS allowed the driver ICD to access the interface. nVidia already has their OGL interface ready.
Direct3D and OpenGL now use common window manager interfaces To allocate system resources and send rendering commands to the GPU hardware The Windows Vista CD does not include ICDs Driver with ICD must be downloaded from web site the same as Windows XP Windows Vista Beta2 ICD available today From NVIDIA at www.nvidia.com Drivers will soon be available from ATI – watch this space Microsoft has a layered OpenGL over D3D for basic functionality Only used if no ICD is presentfrom http://www.khronos.org/developers/library/siggraph2006/OpenGL_BOF/[^] see: NVIDIA_-_OpenGL_on_Vista.ppt_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I'm still waiting to see what becomes of OGL on it before I go and burn down MS campus.
OGL is already handled. MS allowed the driver ICD to access the interface. nVidia already has their OGL interface ready.
Direct3D and OpenGL now use common window manager interfaces To allocate system resources and send rendering commands to the GPU hardware The Windows Vista CD does not include ICDs Driver with ICD must be downloaded from web site the same as Windows XP Windows Vista Beta2 ICD available today From NVIDIA at www.nvidia.com Drivers will soon be available from ATI – watch this space Microsoft has a layered OpenGL over D3D for basic functionality Only used if no ICD is presentfrom http://www.khronos.org/developers/library/siggraph2006/OpenGL_BOF/[^] see: NVIDIA_-_OpenGL_on_Vista.ppt_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Think this ended up under the wrong post, but still good to know, since I use OGL and hope to for the foreseeable future.
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Direct3D and OpenGL now use common window manager interfaces To allocate system resources and send rendering commands to the GPU hardware
Hmm, sounds slower already. :)
- S 50 cups of coffee and you know it's on!
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[or should that be "whom"?] The media have made Vista bashing - more accurately, Vista timetable bashing - almost a reflex action in the same way you say "um" or "er" to fill in gaps of sentences. But I'm wondering: Do you care? Has it affected you materially or strategically? And if you are looking to point the finger who are you pointing it at - the developers, the middle managers, the marketers, or the guys at the top? I was just trying to imagine what it would be like to be a dev working on Vista and be in a position of constantly having to defend your work when it's not even been released yet. I was wondering if this would be demoralising (why bother...) or motivating (this will shut them up!). -- modified at 22:36 Wednesday 16th August, 2006
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
I don't care but it's definitely Microsoft's fault. They simply haven't put decent management strategies in place to ensure that software comes out of the other end of the process. For the amount of time, effort and money they have put into it they sure haven't ended up with very much :doh:
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[or should that be "whom"?] The media have made Vista bashing - more accurately, Vista timetable bashing - almost a reflex action in the same way you say "um" or "er" to fill in gaps of sentences. But I'm wondering: Do you care? Has it affected you materially or strategically? And if you are looking to point the finger who are you pointing it at - the developers, the middle managers, the marketers, or the guys at the top? I was just trying to imagine what it would be like to be a dev working on Vista and be in a position of constantly having to defend your work when it's not even been released yet. I was wondering if this would be demoralising (why bother...) or motivating (this will shut them up!). -- modified at 22:36 Wednesday 16th August, 2006
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
I really do not care, I have Vista running on one of my machines and it did not cost me anything. They want to wait another year, that is fine, just as long as they keep free betas ;)
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: ASP.NET HttpException - Cannot use leading "..".. Latest Tech Blog Post: Anti-Spam idea - Help!
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I believe the criticism seems to come mostly from people who know nothing about the process of developing software. The criticism seems to have the quality of sniping, and just whining and moaning, when they really don't have an appreciation of what it takes to deliver such a large product.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
So you are saying it is OK to a: drop many, many features and b: miss many, many deadlines because it is a tough project? Surely this only shows that the people making Vista "know nothing about the process of developing software."* I think we should expect more from Microsoft, not offer them excuses and sympathy. * Obviously that is unfair and dramatic but they have made a balls up of their software development process. You cannot deny dropped features (dropped to try and get Vista back on track) and slipped dates.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
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[or should that be "whom"?] The media have made Vista bashing - more accurately, Vista timetable bashing - almost a reflex action in the same way you say "um" or "er" to fill in gaps of sentences. But I'm wondering: Do you care? Has it affected you materially or strategically? And if you are looking to point the finger who are you pointing it at - the developers, the middle managers, the marketers, or the guys at the top? I was just trying to imagine what it would be like to be a dev working on Vista and be in a position of constantly having to defend your work when it's not even been released yet. I was wondering if this would be demoralising (why bother...) or motivating (this will shut them up!). -- modified at 22:36 Wednesday 16th August, 2006
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
I couldn't care less about Vista. Never have I been so disinterested in the launch of a new Windows O/S - I was probably more excited about Windows ME FFS! :) However, being pragmatic, I will install a copy at some point (under VMWare) and make sure my apps work OK. MS will force this on people via new PCs, so it can't be ignored.
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[or should that be "whom"?] The media have made Vista bashing - more accurately, Vista timetable bashing - almost a reflex action in the same way you say "um" or "er" to fill in gaps of sentences. But I'm wondering: Do you care? Has it affected you materially or strategically? And if you are looking to point the finger who are you pointing it at - the developers, the middle managers, the marketers, or the guys at the top? I was just trying to imagine what it would be like to be a dev working on Vista and be in a position of constantly having to defend your work when it's not even been released yet. I was wondering if this would be demoralising (why bother...) or motivating (this will shut them up!). -- modified at 22:36 Wednesday 16th August, 2006
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
Do you care?
No - I use W2k at work, WinXP/OS X at home and I'm quite happy with all of them - I'd rather use XP at work so that I could use ClearType, but that's all. They're all stable enough for me, I don't get problems with virii/trojans/worms. So, I just plain don't care about Vista! I'm more excited about Leopard[^] - and I'm not particularly excited about that with what I've heard.
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[or should that be "whom"?] The media have made Vista bashing - more accurately, Vista timetable bashing - almost a reflex action in the same way you say "um" or "er" to fill in gaps of sentences. But I'm wondering: Do you care? Has it affected you materially or strategically? And if you are looking to point the finger who are you pointing it at - the developers, the middle managers, the marketers, or the guys at the top? I was just trying to imagine what it would be like to be a dev working on Vista and be in a position of constantly having to defend your work when it's not even been released yet. I was wondering if this would be demoralising (why bother...) or motivating (this will shut them up!). -- modified at 22:36 Wednesday 16th August, 2006
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
I think Microsoft are caught in the same trap as the 3G manufacturers 5 yers ago - they need to keep new products rolling out. Elaine :rose:
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I like the wait. XP has only gotten better in the years and as cool as Vista is I don't want to learn a new OS every year. Calm down everybody... its not like they aren't going to release it.
Matt Newman
Even the very best tools in the hands of an idiot will produce something of little or no value. - Chris Meech on IdiotsIt's been patched, but it hasn't **any better.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001**
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Mine! I saw it first!
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
There's just not enough room in this post to express my apathy regarding this entire issue - Christopher Duncan
Chris Maunder wrote:
Mine! I saw it first!
:laugh:
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
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Seems to me that a big part of the problem was too many "visionaries" promising silly, but flashy (and relatively hard to develop), features with very little solid reasoning of why businesses need Vista versus a solid XP service pack 3. Ultimately, the state of Vista betrays the state of Microsoft itself. It is unfocused and badly managed at the highest levels and often appears more concerned at being big than in actually serving its customers and stockholders. The sorry state of Visual Studio 2005 is but another example of this. (Disbanding the IE team then putting it back together is probably an even better example.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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[or should that be "whom"?] The media have made Vista bashing - more accurately, Vista timetable bashing - almost a reflex action in the same way you say "um" or "er" to fill in gaps of sentences. But I'm wondering: Do you care? Has it affected you materially or strategically? And if you are looking to point the finger who are you pointing it at - the developers, the middle managers, the marketers, or the guys at the top? I was just trying to imagine what it would be like to be a dev working on Vista and be in a position of constantly having to defend your work when it's not even been released yet. I was wondering if this would be demoralising (why bother...) or motivating (this will shut them up!). -- modified at 22:36 Wednesday 16th August, 2006
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
It affects me in that when i bought my MSDN Team Dev sub last year i was expecting to get Vista (GA) this year (before my sub expired). With nothing else (interesting) on the horizon i was going let my sub lapse. However, with a new sub being more than 2x a renewal i have to think about what platforms i'm going to support for the next 2 yrs. I don't really consider this a coincidence (conspiracy theory). So, if i let the sub lapse i will basically have decided that i will not dev/support Vista for at least 2 yrs. At this point i am sorely tempted to do just that, we'll see.
...cmk Save the whales - collect the whole set
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I'm still waiting to see what becomes of OGL on it before I go and burn down MS campus.
OGL is already handled. MS allowed the driver ICD to access the interface. nVidia already has their OGL interface ready.
Direct3D and OpenGL now use common window manager interfaces To allocate system resources and send rendering commands to the GPU hardware The Windows Vista CD does not include ICDs Driver with ICD must be downloaded from web site the same as Windows XP Windows Vista Beta2 ICD available today From NVIDIA at www.nvidia.com Drivers will soon be available from ATI – watch this space Microsoft has a layered OpenGL over D3D for basic functionality Only used if no ICD is presentfrom http://www.khronos.org/developers/library/siggraph2006/OpenGL_BOF/[^] see: NVIDIA_-_OpenGL_on_Vista.ppt_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
I read about that. My concern is this may change. It's still in beta and MS has been known to completely change stuff for RTMs.
Jeremy Falcon
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[or should that be "whom"?] The media have made Vista bashing - more accurately, Vista timetable bashing - almost a reflex action in the same way you say "um" or "er" to fill in gaps of sentences. But I'm wondering: Do you care? Has it affected you materially or strategically? And if you are looking to point the finger who are you pointing it at - the developers, the middle managers, the marketers, or the guys at the top? I was just trying to imagine what it would be like to be a dev working on Vista and be in a position of constantly having to defend your work when it's not even been released yet. I was wondering if this would be demoralising (why bother...) or motivating (this will shut them up!). -- modified at 22:36 Wednesday 16th August, 2006
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Doesn't affect me one bit. Still using W2K at home, and am even migrating most of my activity to Linux and Mono. I'm tired of having to buy a new product to get fixes. I was excited at first at having a file system to run SQL against with a 3d like view and the whole relational model for file associations, but they're trimming that. So, dunno. MS is tied to their OS and Office releases for the bulk of their revenue so they have to release yet another faulty system to make their shareholders happy. Blame the Stock Market. If we went with an equilibrium based model that didn't rely on profit so much it might be alot different, but that is pure conjecture. ;P
This statement is false.
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I read about that. My concern is this may change. It's still in beta and MS has been known to completely change stuff for RTMs.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I read about that. My concern is this may change. It's still in beta and MS has been known to completely change stuff for RTMs.
It may, MS has been trying to kill OpenGL since Fahrenheit standard board was disbanded. But grudge matches only go so far. MS will not cut their own throat and turn down business. Although OpenGL consumer products are fewer, they occupy the highest end $$ per product, the largest companies, like the US government.... So there is a bit of money on the line. MS did not give in, all they did was shift the responsibility to graphics card manufacturers to supply the capability in their own ICD. Don't get me wrong, MS will not make it "easy" on the ICD builders, Vista will stay "designed" for DirectX/3D, OpenGL will stay active for as long as the ICD builders can stay creative enough to adapt.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I read about that. My concern is this may change. It's still in beta and MS has been known to completely change stuff for RTMs.
It may, MS has been trying to kill OpenGL since Fahrenheit standard board was disbanded. But grudge matches only go so far. MS will not cut their own throat and turn down business. Although OpenGL consumer products are fewer, they occupy the highest end $$ per product, the largest companies, like the US government.... So there is a bit of money on the line. MS did not give in, all they did was shift the responsibility to graphics card manufacturers to supply the capability in their own ICD. Don't get me wrong, MS will not make it "easy" on the ICD builders, Vista will stay "designed" for DirectX/3D, OpenGL will stay active for as long as the ICD builders can stay creative enough to adapt.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Don't get me wrong, MS will not make it "easy" on the ICD builders, Vista will stay "designed" for DirectX/3D, OpenGL will stay active for as long as the ICD builders can stay creative enough to adapt.
Well my hope is ReactOS, Linux, or something will end up at a point to seriously compete with Windows. Maybe it'll be the Mac now, who knows. All MS does is rehash existing stuff, make it worse, and stick their name on it and make people use it (as much as possible). FAT was a perfect example of this, and there was zero need to even create FAT. I'm tired of MS playing the "do it our way or be damned attitude", and when Windows isn't king anymore then they'll shut up and listen. And I'll be smiling. :-D
Jeremy Falcon
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[or should that be "whom"?] The media have made Vista bashing - more accurately, Vista timetable bashing - almost a reflex action in the same way you say "um" or "er" to fill in gaps of sentences. But I'm wondering: Do you care? Has it affected you materially or strategically? And if you are looking to point the finger who are you pointing it at - the developers, the middle managers, the marketers, or the guys at the top? I was just trying to imagine what it would be like to be a dev working on Vista and be in a position of constantly having to defend your work when it's not even been released yet. I was wondering if this would be demoralising (why bother...) or motivating (this will shut them up!). -- modified at 22:36 Wednesday 16th August, 2006
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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[or should that be "whom"?] The media have made Vista bashing - more accurately, Vista timetable bashing - almost a reflex action in the same way you say "um" or "er" to fill in gaps of sentences. But I'm wondering: Do you care? Has it affected you materially or strategically? And if you are looking to point the finger who are you pointing it at - the developers, the middle managers, the marketers, or the guys at the top? I was just trying to imagine what it would be like to be a dev working on Vista and be in a position of constantly having to defend your work when it's not even been released yet. I was wondering if this would be demoralising (why bother...) or motivating (this will shut them up!). -- modified at 22:36 Wednesday 16th August, 2006
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
I spent my career consulting to organizations large and small. It left me convinced that once an organization hits a certain size, and attains a certain age, hardening of the corporate arteries sets in. Corporate chieftains have had the time and money to build up their individual fiefdoms, and at that point, internal politics becomes the name of the game. The only way I've ever seen to break out of this state of corporate rot is to bring in a ruthless outsider with an unrestriced mandate to clean house. After a couple of rounds of high-level firings and massive layoffs, the patient either dies or gets back to the things that made it great in the first place. Who to blame? Nobody--it was inevitable. But it is symptomatic of a larger disease at Microsoft. If you work there, keep your resume up to date.
David Veeneman www.veeneman.com
