Ocean & Mars
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Why bother exploring Mars when Earth is so close by? There are still lots of unknown about earth and the ocean. I am open to discuss.:)
Space pressure difference 1 bar. Bottom of deep ocean pressure difference 300 bars.
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why bother studying physics when there are unsolved math problems ?
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it ties the math together and gives it meaning. Superstring/m-theories have tied together much of the last centuries purely theorectical work. The two are now driving each other, since much of the math the theories need doesn't exist at present.
dan neely wrote:
it ties the math together and gives it meaning.
math has meaning without physics. but, regardless. my post above was a rhetorical question.
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Brown fingers, maybe? ;)
Anna :rose: Currently working mostly on: Visual Lint :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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Roger Wright wrote:
So why can't I get a lawn to grow?
Theory one: You live in the desert. (That's the great part about Arizona, you can put in desert landscaping and get away with it.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
It's worth noting that if the environment here goes phut, Mars is the only alternative place we've got any chance of getting to. Of course the terraforming alone would take an age, so the sooner we start the better. The Mars issue isn't just about exploration The greatest hinderance to the truth is not ignorance, it is the illusion of truth
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It's worth noting that if the environment here goes phut, Mars is the only alternative place we've got any chance of getting to. Of course the terraforming alone would take an age, so the sooner we start the better. The Mars issue isn't just about exploration The greatest hinderance to the truth is not ignorance, it is the illusion of truth
And that is exactly the reason it's considered so valuable to many people. There is valid argument in the fact that we should know everything about Earth before we explore beyond, but the idea of space is that it is a larger environment to explore. It's not just the Moon or Mars, those are just stepping stones in the ability to expand or relocate our population due to population growth and our destruction of the Earth. Exploring the ocean is like exploring a dark corner of a room we already occupy. We know that it's size is limited, because it's contained within Earth. Maybe it's possible to learn something from the oceans that would help save the Earth from our destruction, but that would be more work to save Earth, rather than relocate, and who wants to put in the effort? It's kind of sad, but we've grown up treating the planet a certain way, and now it's not easy to train ourselves to treat it better. It's easier to add the knowledge of space exploration, because those willing to try can put in the effort without being countered by those who have no interest. All of that is pretty much the basis from all the reading i've done on it. Well...that and the fact that our competitive element was willing to back Kennedy with his plan to beat the Russians to a major challenge. The Russians already orbited the Earth, and they were ahead in the ability to lift major structures into space, so the moon was the best and most difficult shot. Who would have felt exploring the ocean depths was as big a feat as going to the moon (even though the ocean is a tougher journey than many think.) Brandon
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It's worth noting that if the environment here goes phut, Mars is the only alternative place we've got any chance of getting to. Of course the terraforming alone would take an age, so the sooner we start the better. The Mars issue isn't just about exploration The greatest hinderance to the truth is not ignorance, it is the illusion of truth
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It's worth noting that if the environment here goes phut, Mars is the only alternative place we've got any chance of getting to. Of course the terraforming alone would take an age, so the sooner we start the better. The Mars issue isn't just about exploration The greatest hinderance to the truth is not ignorance, it is the illusion of truth
What nonsense. No matter how bad earth could get, it will still be more habitable than Mars. Furthermore any technology required to make Mars a viable place to live could also be applied to Earth.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Only half as fun too though ;) Let's face it, every organism (as far as I know) breeds until they alter the natural resources and conditions so much they are smothered by them. Usually, the size of the environment and the number of different species competing for complementing resources forms a balance. In our case there's less and less to stop us all competing for the same resources and less and less counteracting our behaviour. It's sad to think we're destined to go the same way as a bactum colony in a petri dish. WE NEED ANOTHER DISH Of course I don't think nature's out of ideas just yet. It could just be pure hubris on our part to think that otherwise.
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What nonsense. No matter how bad earth could get, it will still be more habitable than Mars. Furthermore any technology required to make Mars a viable place to live could also be applied to Earth.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Because it's there. (I'm not being sarcastic.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
I think we need to investigate Mars because if nothing else it will require international cooperation. Unlike the Moon, exploring Mars requires more resources and - if you believe the latest stats about college graduates - engineering talent than is available in the U.S. The ancient Greek city states quarreled incessantly among themselves when they were not fighting a common enemy. Maybe exploring Mars can be the common enemy that unites us all. J. Stewart
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EscapeKey wrote:
Do you think this is the right path?
There is no "right" path, per se. There is only no path, a circle (which is equivalent to no path in the long run), and a path. The right path can only be evaluated in hindsight. What will we find in the ocean? angry volumes of giant squid? mineral wealth? a new method of energy? a cure for cancer? What will we find on Mars? angry multitudes of Bobs? mineral wealth? a new method of energy? a cure for cancer? No one knows until hindsight what we gained. And even that is usually a bad view. What did we gain from the Moon? most would say "little" or "nothing". But in the process of the "path" we gained fuel cells, new methods for cooling and storing liquid gasses, lasers, velcro, many plastics, new manufacturing methods, computer advancements, communication advancements, weather prediction advancements, food processing, food storage, medicines, medical techniques, and the list is seemingly endless, not to mention the list of things that those then went on to generate. None of those were found on the Moon, but all of them were found on the path to the Moon. Choosing to go no where, with no path, no hope, no goal, no drive, no hole to fill... that is the only bad path. The rest is up to someone who had nothing to do with the path to claim, with no knowledge of what he is already using because someone looked beyond, or below, and tried to get there. -- modified at 22:38 Tuesday 29th August, 2006
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
What did we gain from the Moon? most would say "little" or "nothing". But in the process of the "path" we gained fuel cells, new methods for cooling and storing liquid gasses, lasers, velcro, many plastics, new manufacturing methods, computer advancements, communication advancements, weather prediction advancements, food processing, food storage, medicines, medical techniques, and the list is seemingly endless, not to mention the list of things that those then went on to generate. None of those were found on the Moon, but all of them were found on the path to the Moon.
You forgot to add "movie special effects" to your list. ;P
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What nonsense. No matter how bad earth could get, it will still be more habitable than Mars. Furthermore any technology required to make Mars a viable place to live could also be applied to Earth.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
What nonsense. No matter how bad earth could get, it will still be more habitable than Mars. Furthermore any technology required to make Mars a viable place to live could also be applied to Earth.
Okay, I'm guessing you've never heard of Venus then... :doh: If Earth ever succumbs to the kind of runaway greenhouse effect that Venus suffers from (and it wouldn't take much really, just a couple or so degrees increase in the ocean temperatures), Mars would start to look like a pretty comfortable place by comparison.
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
What nonsense. No matter how bad earth could get, it will still be more habitable than Mars. Furthermore any technology required to make Mars a viable place to live could also be applied to Earth.
Okay, I'm guessing you've never heard of Venus then... :doh: If Earth ever succumbs to the kind of runaway greenhouse effect that Venus suffers from (and it wouldn't take much really, just a couple or so degrees increase in the ocean temperatures), Mars would start to look like a pretty comfortable place by comparison.
Oh God, Venus is NOT a runaway Earth. The geologic and atmospheric conditions aren't remotely similar. A couple of degree increase in ocean temperatures wouldn't do ANYTHING remotely similar to conditions on Venus. We know that because in past eras, the Earth's ocean temperatures have been much higher than today.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Oh God, Venus is NOT a runaway Earth. The geologic and atmospheric conditions aren't remotely similar. A couple of degree increase in ocean temperatures wouldn't do ANYTHING remotely similar to conditions on Venus. We know that because in past eras, the Earth's ocean temperatures have been much higher than today.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
I never said it was a "runaway Earth". I said it was a warning to show what *can* happen if the temperature gets out of control. For starters, Venus is much closer to the Sun than the Earth is, so the temperatures are naturally hotter... however: Methane Clathrates (those huge stored pockets of methane (a far more dangerous greenhouse gas than CO2) that live in the ocean floor - mainly on the continental shelves where the water is deep and the temperature coolest) are very susceptible to temperature change. If these start to 'melt', then it's "bye bye" Earth as a habitable place to live.
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I never said it was a "runaway Earth". I said it was a warning to show what *can* happen if the temperature gets out of control. For starters, Venus is much closer to the Sun than the Earth is, so the temperatures are naturally hotter... however: Methane Clathrates (those huge stored pockets of methane (a far more dangerous greenhouse gas than CO2) that live in the ocean floor - mainly on the continental shelves where the water is deep and the temperature coolest) are very susceptible to temperature change. If these start to 'melt', then it's "bye bye" Earth as a habitable place to live.
It is still a bad analogy since it doesn't illustrate what you propose at all. The geology of Venus is vastly different from earth that it doesn't really illustrate anything at all. There are simply no scenarios that would result in Earth becoming like Venus. Second, Methane Clathrates are neither as common as you propose nor as dangerous and if these start to 'melt' the effect will NOT make Earth uninhabitable. Not even close. Under no scenario would Mars be a more desireable place, let alone practical place, to live. -- modified at 16:33 Saturday 2nd September, 2006 [If you want to frett about things that could put an end to human existance, super volcanoes would be a good place to start.]
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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It is still a bad analogy since it doesn't illustrate what you propose at all. The geology of Venus is vastly different from earth that it doesn't really illustrate anything at all. There are simply no scenarios that would result in Earth becoming like Venus. Second, Methane Clathrates are neither as common as you propose nor as dangerous and if these start to 'melt' the effect will NOT make Earth uninhabitable. Not even close. Under no scenario would Mars be a more desireable place, let alone practical place, to live. -- modified at 16:33 Saturday 2nd September, 2006 [If you want to frett about things that could put an end to human existance, super volcanoes would be a good place to start.]
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Good point about the super volcanoes. And they are a good enough reason to push for colonies on other worlds in and of themselves. I think you're wrong about the extent of Methane Clathrates, or their danger (they translate to approximately 100 times the greenhouse strength of carbon dioxide which everyone is so concerned about nowadays) though. If they were released, even in comparatively small amounts, the Earth would get so hot that the oceans would eventually boil (thus releasing more, and you get a runaway effect). You're right that the oceans used to be hotter than they are now, but we also didn't used to have an oxygen rich atmosphere. A couple of billion years ago, our atmosphere was very different. Mostly methane, CO2, and sulphur actually. Not a nice place to live. Also, as the sun gets older, it will get gradually hotter. This will ultimately mean our atmosphere burning away - the oceans evaporating, and Earth will be a ball of dust in space. As Earth gets hotter, so will Mars - which will make it temperate like the Earth for about 1 billion years after the Earth becomes un-inhabitable. There really is no hope for the Earth. Sooner or later, it'll be a rump or destroyed by the sun as it expands to become a red giant as it dies. The only way the human race is going to survive is if we start looking to colonize other worlds - and Mars is the logical first step. People are researching the oceans, but Mars is the future.
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Why bother exploring Mars when Earth is so close by? There are still lots of unknown about earth and the ocean. I am open to discuss.:)
I have the perfect solution: 1. Terraform Mars 2. Explore Mars oceans!:->
---------- Siderite