The EU is out of their freaking minds
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As usual, feelings supersede logic. Microsoft sells in the EU because it is good business. Otherwise, they wouldn't. Calling for Microsoft to pull out is not unlike those guys that argue that we pay more than anyone for medical treatment because drug companies are forced to lose money overseas. Absurd. They are in the EU because it is a huge market and, if they didn't cater to it, someone else would. In relation to locking certain features, consider if VS would not allow you to run Visual Assist. One thing is to provide the best possible service, another to force you to use a particular one. Still, EU burocrats could be pissing against the wind while trying to call any attention whatsoever to themselves... if they are anything like the ones at home.
Ryan Binns wrote:
Of course. That's what this whole EU vs Microsoft thing is all about. There is no logic to it; the EU hates Microsoft.
The EU can't hate Microsoft although that may be *your feeling*. It can't because it is not a person. Some europeans hate Microsoft, others love it, most don't give a flying... What is certain is that the EU can be the object of hatred, perhaps yours, as can be the object of whatever feelings anyone may have.
Ryan Binns wrote:
When has Microsoft prevented you from using third-party programs of any sort?
All the time and as much as they can get away with. They are in business, why wouldn't they? Out of the kindness of their hearts?
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Microsoft isn't locking anything. If you don't want to run the Vista firewall, you can disable it and run your own. Same with anti-virus and, I presume, anti-spyware tools.
It is locking quite a bit. Consider the browser issue. Can't you uninstall IE? Can the average user? Some of us find it convenient to have IE preinstalled. Some of us also think that if it was truly optional and could be truly substituted for other browsers, many would use other browsers that are, for example, possibly better.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
The statement by the EU is clear; Microsoft won't be able to ship any default security tools with Vista in Europe.
We will see.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
I think Microsoft will threaten to pull out.
It is not a realistic threat but...
Joe Woodbury wrote:
The liability of remaining is simply too high. If they pull the features, they'll get sued when companies get hit.
... your argument is somewhat valid. On the other hand, can they sue now for the many and evident holes in security?
Edbert P wrote:
How can they not be happy having M$ as their ca$h cow? However, having said that, I believe they're just warning MS not to hinder other AntiVirus/Firewall/etc utilities by using undocumented APIs and/or purposefully preventing them to run effectively, or to bundle Windows Defender etc in their OS (i.e. to use their monopoly to gain entry into another market, similar to the recent WMP/IE issues).
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[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
I thought that, e.g, OneCare wasn't being bundled anyway?
Kevin
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The growth of Windows has always meant that things that people were able to sell before, suddenly came with the package. For example, Visual Studio addins are nice today, but VC6 without Visual Assist is untenable. It's obvious that competetion will continue to exist. If the MS products suck, that will cause other people to inovate. Some people will just buy third party stuff because MS has a bad track record in this area, and some people just don't like MS. Still others will have an existing product and continue to pay the subscription on it. No matter which way you look, MS making the OS more secure is a *good* thing, weren't these the same people charging to *nix because it was more secure ? It seems to me that Microsoft's biggest crime is the fact that they are successful. I sure don't see how creating an artificual vacuum is going to help anyone's security. I wonder what would happen if MS threatened to drop all support and stop selling into the EU until they are allowed to compete like any other company ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
It seems to me that Microsoft's biggest crime is the fact that they are successful.
Yes. Although MS has been somewhat over-aggresive in the past they still would have been targeted without such behaviour. Notice what is starting to happen to Apple in their iPod-related business.
Kevin
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[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
And people made fun of my comment in the Remote Desktop thread below... :rolleyes:
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10 PRINT 'HELLO MAINTAINER: GOTO HELL -
[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
After doing a bit of searching for the original quote (without the missing section denoted by ...), I was unable to find it.. However, I did find that the 'security product' that Jonathan Todd has said that he unhappy with on other occasions is the bundled DRM software, not the firewall and anti-virus software.
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[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
It's plainly sour grapes and penis envy. If the EU had a company anywhere near as successful as Microsoft they'd scream "protectionism!" and invoke the powers of the World Trade Organization if we tried anything like what they are doing. Witness what happened when we put a tarrif on cheap (dumped) steel. Hypocrits!
Silence is the voice of complicity. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. -- monty python Might I suggest that the universe was always the size of the cosmos. It is just that at one point the cosmos was the size of a marble. -- Colin Angus Mackay
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Ryan Binns wrote:
Of course. That's what this whole EU vs Microsoft thing is all about. There is no logic to it; the EU hates Microsoft.
The EU can't hate Microsoft although that may be *your feeling*. It can't because it is not a person. Some europeans hate Microsoft, others love it, most don't give a flying... What is certain is that the EU can be the object of hatred, perhaps yours, as can be the object of whatever feelings anyone may have.
Ryan Binns wrote:
When has Microsoft prevented you from using third-party programs of any sort?
All the time and as much as they can get away with. They are in business, why wouldn't they? Out of the kindness of their hearts?
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Microsoft isn't locking anything. If you don't want to run the Vista firewall, you can disable it and run your own. Same with anti-virus and, I presume, anti-spyware tools.
It is locking quite a bit. Consider the browser issue. Can't you uninstall IE? Can the average user? Some of us find it convenient to have IE preinstalled. Some of us also think that if it was truly optional and could be truly substituted for other browsers, many would use other browsers that are, for example, possibly better.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
The statement by the EU is clear; Microsoft won't be able to ship any default security tools with Vista in Europe.
We will see.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
I think Microsoft will threaten to pull out.
It is not a realistic threat but...
Joe Woodbury wrote:
The liability of remaining is simply too high. If they pull the features, they'll get sued when companies get hit.
... your argument is somewhat valid. On the other hand, can they sue now for the many and evident holes in security?
Edbert P wrote:
How can they not be happy having M$ as their ca$h cow? However, having said that, I believe they're just warning MS not to hinder other AntiVirus/Firewall/etc utilities by using undocumented APIs and/or purposefully preventing them to run effectively, or to bundle Windows Defender etc in their OS (i.e. to use their monopoly to gain entry into another market, similar to the recent WMP/IE issues).
DaTxomin wrote:
Ryan Binns wrote: When has Microsoft prevented you from using third-party programs of any sort? All the time and as much as they can get away with. They are in business, why wouldn't they? Out of the kindness of their hearts?
Uhh, that's pretty stupid. The whole point of Microsoft's OS's is to be able to run third party software. What paranoid idiocy!
DaTxomin wrote:
It is locking quite a bit. Consider the browser issue. Can't you uninstall IE? Can the average user? Some of us find it convenient to have IE preinstalled. Some of us also think that if it was truly optional and could be truly substituted for other browsers, many would use other browsers that are, for example, possibly better.
Yes, actually you can uninstall IE. Quite easily. I've done so. And, so what if IE is installed? It's clear you can install another browser! And even set it as the default for viewing the web! Witness the success of FireFox and Opera and other browsers. You can even customize IE and put your own shell around it and make it better than IE by itself! Other's have done it! Wow! Talk about "Locking". More idiocy. Penis Envy! Penis Envy!
Silence is the voice of complicity. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. -- monty python Might I suggest that the universe was always the size of the cosmos. It is just that at one point the cosmos was the size of a marble. -- Colin Angus Mackay
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[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
If Microsoft really wanted to make an impression on the EC, they should simply stop selling and supporting all versions of windows in europe for a suitable period of time. It would be really interesting to see what happens - either the EC will be innundated with complaints that MS has pulled out of the market to the point that the EC will back off on the reins, or everyone will switch to Linux (and I don't see that happening). Sure, Microsoft would lose a good chunk of change on that deal, but they'd make a point - the world simply can't function without Windows.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Its only Symantec that is bitching about this. About time their crap was stopped from hooking into the system so deep that it regulary trashes the machine. McAfee is just as bad. I've never had trouble with AVG or Avast in that way I have with the bigboys of security. Install a service pack, and say goodbye to windows if you are using Symantec, but not the case with the little guys.
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[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Funny how in the U.S. the other companies sue MS for being anticompetitive and in the EU they just lodge a complaint with the EU commission and let them do all the dirty and expensive work for them. How much money do you suppose EU commisioners are getting on the sly to work for Microsoft's competitors in this underhanded manner. I think both systems are far from ideal but at least in the U.S. you have supposedly objective people (judges or jury) work it out.
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Well, actually there is a point. They did the same in Formula 1. They forbid things, year after year, to pick up the compitition between drivers instead of constructors. The bottom line was that the teams would find ways to upgrade the cars significantly by other means (innovations). They wouldn't have invented those upgrades if there weren't limitations and boundries to cross :-).
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:beer:
:jig: :badger:I don't think it's a valid comparison. The EU is clearly being underhanded about this, it smells entirely of an EU comissioner getting kickbacks from a competitor of Microsofts to gan an unfair advantage. I don't know how else it can be taken when they make bizzare edicts, keep changing the rules and then won't disclose who made the complaints. Actually that's not unlike forumal 1 in some sense but all the most unhealthiest ones.
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DaTxomin wrote:
In relation to locking certain features
Microsoft isn't locking anything. If you don't want to run the Vista firewall, you can disable it and run your own. Same with anti-virus and, I presume, anti-spyware tools. The statement by the EU is clear; Microsoft won't be able to ship any default security tools with Vista in Europe. I think Microsoft will threaten to pull out. The liability of remaining is simply too high. If they pull the features, they'll get sued when companies get hit. In the end, the companies and PC Vendors that matter in Europe will likely put pressure on the EU to drop this silliness.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
In the end, the companies and PC Vendors that matter in Europe will likely put pressure on the EU to drop this silliness
They haven't before, I doubt we're going to see a peep out of them. Besides I'm guessing by the sheer illogic and secrecy of all this that it's a lot easier to just bribe an EU commissioner. Perhaps the real issue is Microsoft is unwilling to pay the protection money.
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Funny how in the U.S. the other companies sue MS for being anticompetitive and in the EU they just lodge a complaint with the EU commission and let them do all the dirty and expensive work for them. How much money do you suppose EU commisioners are getting on the sly to work for Microsoft's competitors in this underhanded manner. I think both systems are far from ideal but at least in the U.S. you have supposedly objective people (judges or jury) work it out.
The EU comissioners are a part of a democratic structure, protecting people and companies present in the EU - this includes Microsoft! The main goal here is to make sure that it is possible to create alternatives to the default security provided in the OS - and to make it easy enough for a private person to make an active choiice. If Micrsoft already has an open attitude on this, there is no problem! The main focus of EU is competetive markets. They have several times forbidden the merging of major companies in many areas, deaming it would create too dominant actors on the respective markets, thus hindering free trade and creating oligopoly (not monopoly, but close).
Carolina Berglund Consultant, systemdeveloper and architect.
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DaTxomin wrote:
Ryan Binns wrote: When has Microsoft prevented you from using third-party programs of any sort? All the time and as much as they can get away with. They are in business, why wouldn't they? Out of the kindness of their hearts?
Uhh, that's pretty stupid. The whole point of Microsoft's OS's is to be able to run third party software. What paranoid idiocy!
DaTxomin wrote:
It is locking quite a bit. Consider the browser issue. Can't you uninstall IE? Can the average user? Some of us find it convenient to have IE preinstalled. Some of us also think that if it was truly optional and could be truly substituted for other browsers, many would use other browsers that are, for example, possibly better.
Yes, actually you can uninstall IE. Quite easily. I've done so. And, so what if IE is installed? It's clear you can install another browser! And even set it as the default for viewing the web! Witness the success of FireFox and Opera and other browsers. You can even customize IE and put your own shell around it and make it better than IE by itself! Other's have done it! Wow! Talk about "Locking". More idiocy. Penis Envy! Penis Envy!
Silence is the voice of complicity. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. -- monty python Might I suggest that the universe was always the size of the cosmos. It is just that at one point the cosmos was the size of a marble. -- Colin Angus Mackay
ahz wrote:
DaTxomin wrote: Ryan Binns wrote: When has Microsoft prevented you from using third-party programs of any sort? All the time and as much as they can get away with. They are in business, why wouldn't they? Out of the kindness of their hearts? Uhh, that's pretty stupid. The whole point of Microsoft's OS's is to be able to run third party software. What paranoid idiocy!
Right. Microsoft is in business so that other companies can profit. It is their sole reason for being, it is the "whole point". Idiocy indeed.
ahz wrote:
DaTxomin wrote: It is locking quite a bit. Consider the browser issue. Can't you uninstall IE? Can the average user? Some of us find it convenient to have IE preinstalled. Some of us also think that if it was truly optional and could be truly substituted for other browsers, many would use other browsers that are, for example, possibly better. Yes, actually you can uninstall IE. Quite easily. I've done so. And, so what if IE is installed? It's clear you can install another browser! And even set it as the default for viewing the web! Witness the success of FireFox and Opera and other browsers. You can even customize IE and put your own shell around it and make it better than IE by itself! Other's have done it! Wow! Talk about "Locking". More idiocy.
Sure, uninstalling IE is child's play, just ask your average user or take a look at which browser is the most commonly used and for what reasons. More idiocy indeed.
ahz wrote:
Penis Envy! Penis Envy!
Is, therefore, your penis size the motivation for your insistence that your, and only your, opinions are not idiotic? Screeching failure.
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Edbert P wrote:
Windows Defender
Why not let them add Windows Defender? It's their OS. This whole EU episode is like dealing with the mob. No matter what Microsoft does, the EU changes the rules. In a ruling last year they even refused to disclose to Microsoft the actual complaints against them.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Why don't we find a large successful European company and start something similar here in the states. Isn't that what this is largely about?
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The EU comissioners are a part of a democratic structure, protecting people and companies present in the EU - this includes Microsoft! The main goal here is to make sure that it is possible to create alternatives to the default security provided in the OS - and to make it easy enough for a private person to make an active choiice. If Micrsoft already has an open attitude on this, there is no problem! The main focus of EU is competetive markets. They have several times forbidden the merging of major companies in many areas, deaming it would create too dominant actors on the respective markets, thus hindering free trade and creating oligopoly (not monopoly, but close).
Carolina Berglund Consultant, systemdeveloper and architect.
First of all, how can a private person understand that choice anyway? Are you suggesting that joe blow could pick a better security than what would be default in Windows? Doubtful at best. In fact, the more security they bundle, the more secure the entire computing spectrum will become. People (lay users) aren't going to take the time or expend the effort to understand different security products/needs. If it's not 'default' it's not going to be used by a lot of folks. I believe we should just pick out a large European company and start similar proceeding here in the states, just to make a point of how silly this is.
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Edbert P wrote:
Windows Defender
Why not let them add Windows Defender? It's their OS. This whole EU episode is like dealing with the mob. No matter what Microsoft does, the EU changes the rules. In a ruling last year they even refused to disclose to Microsoft the actual complaints against them.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
This whole EU episode is like dealing with the mob.
What do you expect from the EU Commission? That's what bureaucracy is all about - legal plunder. All money which government has comes from the citizenry through the coercive process, either taxation, regulation, tarif or another clever mechanism. Government officials understand that they are parasitic, and they survive and flourish through the earnings that are sucked out of the pockets of the citizens. They comprehend, that if the citizenry suddenly decided to stop paying taxes, the bureaucracy's lifeline would, at the same time, dry up. The EU Commission has to fund itself. Since they offer no value to their paying "customers" (how many people say "Thanks" after being fined by a bureaucrat), they have to rely on extorsion and the threat of force to bring in money. The EU Commission decided Microsoft would be a good source of funds, so they are just doing their job to stay alive. Question of the day: What do bureaucrats know about competition? What about software competition? I bet none of the bureaucrats at the EU Commission ever wrote an application in C++.
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First of all, how can a private person understand that choice anyway? Are you suggesting that joe blow could pick a better security than what would be default in Windows? Doubtful at best. In fact, the more security they bundle, the more secure the entire computing spectrum will become. People (lay users) aren't going to take the time or expend the effort to understand different security products/needs. If it's not 'default' it's not going to be used by a lot of folks. I believe we should just pick out a large European company and start similar proceeding here in the states, just to make a point of how silly this is.
Tim Kohler wrote:
I believe we should just pick out a large European company and start similar proceeding here in the states, just to make a point of how silly this is.
just out of curiosity... who?
"there is no spoon"
{some projects} {about me} -
First of all, how can a private person understand that choice anyway? Are you suggesting that joe blow could pick a better security than what would be default in Windows? Doubtful at best. In fact, the more security they bundle, the more secure the entire computing spectrum will become. People (lay users) aren't going to take the time or expend the effort to understand different security products/needs. If it's not 'default' it's not going to be used by a lot of folks. I believe we should just pick out a large European company and start similar proceeding here in the states, just to make a point of how silly this is.
Tim Kohler wrote:
First of all, how can a private person understand that choice anyway? Are you suggesting that joe blow could pick a better security than what would be default in Windows? Doubtful at best.
Certainly, if someone can make a better product, Joe could choose it. He could choose wrong too, but the point is it's his choice. Additionally, Joe should have the opportunity to choose a different (maybe less secure) product that suits him better for some reason niether of us would consider important. Giving people choices makes them think for themselves, and that is the most important part of any form of security. Different security products will also give malicious forces on the Net a challange!
Tim Kohler wrote:
I believe we should just pick out a large European company and start similar proceeding here in the states, just to make a point of how silly this is.
Go ahead, we're used to this. Typical American attitude to think you're in focus - as I said earlier; this can happen to any company, and it does! Microsoft is not first and not alone! Microsoft is a GLOBAL company, not an American.
Carolina Berglund Consultant, systemdeveloper and architect.