Don't call us violent or we'll kill you...
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Michal Martinka wrote:
4 male witnesses? It's stupid. How often this happens? What are the chances to have 4 male witnesses in case of rape?
Don’t believe everything you read here; especially considering it’s the SB and Ryan is speaking about Islam. Some Clarification[^]
Recitation(not full prayer)in AlMasjid AlHaram Surah AlHaaqa(The Reality) Surah Qaf Eid Alfitr Turning Muslim in Texas?
So the stuff in Sura 24 is actually meant to be used as it seems to be intended? I.e to protect women from frivolous accusations of adultery? I Had wondered how it ended up being used raise the burden of proof for rape several Islamic countries. But hey, I'm not the Muslim.
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution or crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter" :~
"I make up quotes." -Vincent Reynolds
Red Stateler wrote:
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution or crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter"
Yup, though as not to be read it in Isolation (in fact better to read the whole section or Surah):
AL-MAEDA:32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. AL-MAEDA:33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; AL-MAEDA:34 Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.Recitation(not full prayer)in AlMasjid AlHaram Surah AlHaaqa(The Reality) Surah Qaf Eid Alfitr Turning Muslim in Texas?
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
That's exactly what Mulsims believe.
BS. And even if it is, a muslim can be a citizen as the same level than a Catholic or an atheist, that is democracy 101. This mentality of 'besieged' is ridiculous and toxic.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
. To the extent that the Bahai in Iran are sometime punished for apostacy, becuase their ancestors were born Muslim
Your geographical diversion won't help you to justify insulting people you know.
The bombs are falling overhead with no sight
K(arl) wrote:
And even if it is, a muslim can be a citizen as the same level
Not if their first loyalty is to the Umma, no, that's what breaks the whole democratic model and is what worries racist arseholes like myself and Ms Fallaci. It is typical of your thinking on the issue that you throw the beliefs of other people back at me for pointing them out. It is dangerously naive not to be concerned about demographic predictions that show a Muslim majority population in Europe within 3 generations.
K(arl) wrote:
Your geographical diversion
What? Its a clear example of fundamentalist Muslim thinking on the issue.
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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Red Stateler wrote:
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution or crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter"
Yup, though as not to be read it in Isolation (in fact better to read the whole section or Surah):
AL-MAEDA:32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. AL-MAEDA:33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; AL-MAEDA:34 Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.Recitation(not full prayer)in AlMasjid AlHaram Surah AlHaaqa(The Reality) Surah Qaf Eid Alfitr Turning Muslim in Texas?
A.A. wrote:
Yup
:~ Why haven't we started a second (or is it 4th or something) crusade yet? Keep in mind that "spreading mischief" also seems to include such things (as we've seen in Afghanistan) as "converting to Christianity". I really hope the Pope does not back down from his remarks. People often criticize Europe for the Crusades, but this is the kind of stuff they were up against.
"I make up quotes." -Vincent Reynolds
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
That's exactly what Mulsims believe.
BS. And even if it is, a muslim can be a citizen as the same level than a Catholic or an atheist, that is democracy 101. This mentality of 'besieged' is ridiculous and toxic.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
. To the extent that the Bahai in Iran are sometime punished for apostacy, becuase their ancestors were born Muslim
Your geographical diversion won't help you to justify insulting people you know.
The bombs are falling overhead with no sight
http://www.islam101.com/dawah/newBorn.htm[^] The Prophet (PBUH) reported that Allah said, "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray". The Prophet (PBUH) also said, "Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah", then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian, the way an animal gives birth to a normal offspring. Have you noticed any that were born mutilated?"
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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K(arl) wrote:
And even if it is, a muslim can be a citizen as the same level
Not if their first loyalty is to the Umma, no, that's what breaks the whole democratic model and is what worries racist arseholes like myself and Ms Fallaci. It is typical of your thinking on the issue that you throw the beliefs of other people back at me for pointing them out. It is dangerously naive not to be concerned about demographic predictions that show a Muslim majority population in Europe within 3 generations.
K(arl) wrote:
Your geographical diversion
What? Its a clear example of fundamentalist Muslim thinking on the issue.
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Not if their first loyalty is to the Umma
The same question can be held for a Jew (is his first loyalty to Israel?), a catholic (is his first loyalty to Vatican?), an anglican (is his first loyalty to the British queen), an ultraliberal ((is his first loyalty to the US).
Ryan Roberts wrote:
you throw the beliefs of other people back at me for pointing them out.
You don't point them out, you present beliefs and tell they are of others. Have you any proof every muslim thinks as you think he thinks?
Ryan Roberts wrote:
what worries racist arseholes like myself and Ms Fallaci.
A good point, at least you begin to see the things as they are.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
It is dangerously naive not to be concerned about demographic predictions that show a Muslim majority population in Europe within 3 generations.
Yeah, let's sterilize muslims.
The bombs are falling overhead with no sight
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Under the Taliban, and sometimes in Iran. It's not ubiquitous. Rape is often punished though, as unless the victim can produce 4 male witnesses she is considered to have committed adultery which is punishable by whipping (if unmarried) or death (if married) under Sharia law.
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Ryan Roberts wrote:
4 male witnesses
I could be wrong, but I remember reading somewhere it was 4 adult male Muslim witnesses. :~
Cheers, Vikram.
"whoever I am, I'm not other people" - Corinna John.
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
Not if their first loyalty is to the Umma
The same question can be held for a Jew (is his first loyalty to Israel?), a catholic (is his first loyalty to Vatican?), an anglican (is his first loyalty to the British queen), an ultraliberal ((is his first loyalty to the US).
Ryan Roberts wrote:
you throw the beliefs of other people back at me for pointing them out.
You don't point them out, you present beliefs and tell they are of others. Have you any proof every muslim thinks as you think he thinks?
Ryan Roberts wrote:
what worries racist arseholes like myself and Ms Fallaci.
A good point, at least you begin to see the things as they are.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
It is dangerously naive not to be concerned about demographic predictions that show a Muslim majority population in Europe within 3 generations.
Yeah, let's sterilize muslims.
The bombs are falling overhead with no sight
K(arl) wrote:
Have you any proof every muslim thinks as you think he thinks?
This stuff is clearly stated in their own texts. But hey, carry on believing that vague remaining notions of La Republic will tame the strongest retrograde force on earth. Being suspicous of Catholics/Protestants respectively in the 17th century was a very good idea, especialy if they got anywhere near the reigns of power. Try reading what they say[^] . Islam needs to grow the hell up before we encourage its growth within our borders. Demanding reciprocal religious freedom in Islamic countries would be a good start.
K(arl) wrote:
A good point, at least you begin to see the things as they are.
It was irony, I'm a culturalist. I have the incredibly politically incorrect belief that I am allowed to criticise other cultures than my own.
K(arl) wrote:
Yeah, let's sterilize muslims.
Way to present a reasoned argument Karl. In a similarly balanced response how about we all pretend how tolerant we are until Voltaire (another viscous Islamaphobe) and Flaubert are condemned to the same fate as the Banyan Buddahs and the Sphinx (hint, it wasn't napoleon who defaced it). Maybe it would be karmic justice for all that colonialism of our own. -- modified at 12:07 Friday 15th September, 2006
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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A.A. wrote:
Yup
:~ Why haven't we started a second (or is it 4th or something) crusade yet? Keep in mind that "spreading mischief" also seems to include such things (as we've seen in Afghanistan) as "converting to Christianity". I really hope the Pope does not back down from his remarks. People often criticize Europe for the Crusades, but this is the kind of stuff they were up against.
"I make up quotes." -Vincent Reynolds
There were 9 Crusades, not including the ones in Europe.
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There were 9 Crusades, not including the ones in Europe.
Well 10 is a nice round number!
"I make up quotes." -Vincent Reynolds
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The Pope needs to be careful, these folks dropped the "turn the other cheek" concept when they initialized.
Mike Dear NYT - the fact is, the founding fathers hung traitors. Vincent Reynolds: My opposition is as enlightened as your support, jackass. dennisd45: My view of the world is slightly more nuanced dennisd45 (the NAMBLA supporter) wrote: I know exactly what it means. So shut up you mother killing baby raper.
It's a nice match up!
-- Simulcast on Crazy People's Fillings
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
unless the victim can produce 4 male witnesses she is considered to have committed adultery
4 male witnesses? It's stupid. How often this happens? What are the chances to have 4 male witnesses in case of rape?
Michal Martinka wrote:
What are the chances to have 4 male witnesses in case of rape?
A couple of years ago we had what seemed lake a plague of mob rapes performed by the young generation of our new citizens from the muslim world. I guess they could manage a group of at least 4 males...
"God doesn't play dice" - Albert Einstein "God not only plays dice, He sometimes throws the dices where they cannot be seen" - Niels Bohr
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Under the Taliban, and sometimes in Iran. It's not ubiquitous. Rape is often punished though, as unless the victim can produce 4 male witnesses she is considered to have committed adultery which is punishable by whipping (if unmarried) or death (if married) under Sharia law.
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Ryan Roberts wrote:
unless the victim can produce 4 male witnesses she is considered to have committed adultery
Do you have a reference for this? According to Quran 24:4, it is the accuser who must produce 4 witnesses in order to prove adultery.
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Red Stateler wrote:
They're peace-loving people
No offense, just a question. Doesn't they kill women who have been raped by throwing stones on them???
No we dont follow Bible.
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"Anyone who describes Islam as a religion as intolerant encourages violence...[^] :~
Thank God for disproportional force.
I am against this baised protest against Pope.None had balls to condemn Bush when He came up with facism theory.Maybe because Pakistani govt consider Bush more powerful than Pope. What I would like that Pakistani govt send a set of Bible to Pope by highliting bunch of deutoronomy verses which clearly instructs to kill non Bible followers and prophets[they already killed lots of Prophets in past] X|
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http://www.islam101.com/dawah/newBorn.htm[^] The Prophet (PBUH) reported that Allah said, "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray". The Prophet (PBUH) also said, "Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah", then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian, the way an animal gives birth to a normal offspring. Have you noticed any that were born mutilated?"
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Ryan Roberts wrote:
"Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah"
ANd do you know what Fitrah means?:rolleyes:
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
unless the victim can produce 4 male witnesses she is considered to have committed adultery
Do you have a reference for this? According to Quran 24:4, it is the accuser who must produce 4 witnesses in order to prove adultery.
Thats the verse.. it has ended up being used for exactly that purpose though. I'm trying to find the reasoning behind it.
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
"Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah"
ANd do you know what Fitrah means?:rolleyes:
Grace. I assume this is why you can also believe in pre Islamic Muslims (Hanifs?). Its an interesting concept, compared to Christian notions of original sin. Doesn't alter my position that you believe your children to be born Muslim.
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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Grace. I assume this is why you can also believe in pre Islamic Muslims (Hanifs?). Its an interesting concept, compared to Christian notions of original sin. Doesn't alter my position that you believe your children to be born Muslim.
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Ryan Roberts wrote:
pre Islamic Muslims (Hanifs?)
ROFL.Now I really believe you know lots about Islam and Muislims.I know you are actually referring "Hanfis" but pre-Islamic,hahhaa.you made my day.Was that not you who raised point on muhammdans because they follow Mohammad and didnt make a study about 'christian'
Ryan Roberts wrote:
you believe your children to be born Muslim.
We even believe that Abraham was first who was a muslim.The word Muslim means Submission to God so naturally everyone is submitted to God even you[doesnt matter you accept or not]
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
pre Islamic Muslims (Hanifs?)
ROFL.Now I really believe you know lots about Islam and Muislims.I know you are actually referring "Hanfis" but pre-Islamic,hahhaa.you made my day.Was that not you who raised point on muhammdans because they follow Mohammad and didnt make a study about 'christian'
Ryan Roberts wrote:
you believe your children to be born Muslim.
We even believe that Abraham was first who was a muslim.The word Muslim means Submission to God so naturally everyone is submitted to God even you[doesnt matter you accept or not]
Mohammeds ahistorical use of proto muslims to back his point has no bearing on the fact your faith often resembles a personaility cult.
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette