Ok, I'm coming around to it, IE does in fact suck
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I've been doing a lot of web development lately and I've always had no problems with IE, sure it's odd in a few places with how it does things, but they are always workaroundable but I've found by accident a really compelling reason to use either Opera or FireFox: IE's (v6) javascript performance is unbelievably bad. I have a webform that loads virtually instantaneously in both Opera or FF and IE takes on average 10-12 seconds to load the same page. This is a page with a lot of very highly optimized 3rd party components (Telerik) on it. So if the same page loads and is ready to use in Opera in under 1 second and it takes on average 11 seconds to get to the same point in IE (taking into account caching, debugging etc etc) that's an incredible performance difference. It's the sort of thing that I would be fixing in a hurry if I had the source code to do it. I've researched the problem and in fact it's just that slow, there is nothing further that can be done to optimize away the problem. What's interesting in all this time I've rebutted people here who have tried to convince everyone that IE sucks they've never (afaik) brought up this most significant and damning issue. It's always standards this and standards that. The real issue if that as the web becomes more highly javascript dependant it's very likely that a high percentage of pages that you surf to are going to be much slower than necessary. IE7 supposedly fixes this problem greatly so it's going to be a moot point soon hopefully, but I have to agree that I will recommend that when I release this software users use it with Opera or FF or IE7+ I'm going to try to switch to Opera completely, it's hands down the fastest in my testing, hopefully most sites will support it.
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I've been doing a lot of web development lately and I've always had no problems with IE, sure it's odd in a few places with how it does things, but they are always workaroundable but I've found by accident a really compelling reason to use either Opera or FireFox: IE's (v6) javascript performance is unbelievably bad. I have a webform that loads virtually instantaneously in both Opera or FF and IE takes on average 10-12 seconds to load the same page. This is a page with a lot of very highly optimized 3rd party components (Telerik) on it. So if the same page loads and is ready to use in Opera in under 1 second and it takes on average 11 seconds to get to the same point in IE (taking into account caching, debugging etc etc) that's an incredible performance difference. It's the sort of thing that I would be fixing in a hurry if I had the source code to do it. I've researched the problem and in fact it's just that slow, there is nothing further that can be done to optimize away the problem. What's interesting in all this time I've rebutted people here who have tried to convince everyone that IE sucks they've never (afaik) brought up this most significant and damning issue. It's always standards this and standards that. The real issue if that as the web becomes more highly javascript dependant it's very likely that a high percentage of pages that you surf to are going to be much slower than necessary. IE7 supposedly fixes this problem greatly so it's going to be a moot point soon hopefully, but I have to agree that I will recommend that when I release this software users use it with Opera or FF or IE7+ I'm going to try to switch to Opera completely, it's hands down the fastest in my testing, hopefully most sites will support it.
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I've been doing a lot of web development lately and I've always had no problems with IE, sure it's odd in a few places with how it does things, but they are always workaroundable but I've found by accident a really compelling reason to use either Opera or FireFox: IE's (v6) javascript performance is unbelievably bad. I have a webform that loads virtually instantaneously in both Opera or FF and IE takes on average 10-12 seconds to load the same page. This is a page with a lot of very highly optimized 3rd party components (Telerik) on it. So if the same page loads and is ready to use in Opera in under 1 second and it takes on average 11 seconds to get to the same point in IE (taking into account caching, debugging etc etc) that's an incredible performance difference. It's the sort of thing that I would be fixing in a hurry if I had the source code to do it. I've researched the problem and in fact it's just that slow, there is nothing further that can be done to optimize away the problem. What's interesting in all this time I've rebutted people here who have tried to convince everyone that IE sucks they've never (afaik) brought up this most significant and damning issue. It's always standards this and standards that. The real issue if that as the web becomes more highly javascript dependant it's very likely that a high percentage of pages that you surf to are going to be much slower than necessary. IE7 supposedly fixes this problem greatly so it's going to be a moot point soon hopefully, but I have to agree that I will recommend that when I release this software users use it with Opera or FF or IE7+ I'm going to try to switch to Opera completely, it's hands down the fastest in my testing, hopefully most sites will support it.
It's not just scrolling - IE's very slow at rendering loaded pages too. Try this URL :- http://www.thinkingms.com/pensieve/[^] Load that on IE and FF. Then scroll down a few times using PageDown. On IE, there's a noticable flicker and your eyes hurt if you scroll too fast. It's perfect on FF. And remember that I am a guy whose first preference browser is IE - so this is not a biased anti-IE attack that you may expect from the CPHog brotherhood :rolleyes:
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog -
I've been doing a lot of web development lately and I've always had no problems with IE, sure it's odd in a few places with how it does things, but they are always workaroundable but I've found by accident a really compelling reason to use either Opera or FireFox: IE's (v6) javascript performance is unbelievably bad. I have a webform that loads virtually instantaneously in both Opera or FF and IE takes on average 10-12 seconds to load the same page. This is a page with a lot of very highly optimized 3rd party components (Telerik) on it. So if the same page loads and is ready to use in Opera in under 1 second and it takes on average 11 seconds to get to the same point in IE (taking into account caching, debugging etc etc) that's an incredible performance difference. It's the sort of thing that I would be fixing in a hurry if I had the source code to do it. I've researched the problem and in fact it's just that slow, there is nothing further that can be done to optimize away the problem. What's interesting in all this time I've rebutted people here who have tried to convince everyone that IE sucks they've never (afaik) brought up this most significant and damning issue. It's always standards this and standards that. The real issue if that as the web becomes more highly javascript dependant it's very likely that a high percentage of pages that you surf to are going to be much slower than necessary. IE7 supposedly fixes this problem greatly so it's going to be a moot point soon hopefully, but I have to agree that I will recommend that when I release this software users use it with Opera or FF or IE7+ I'm going to try to switch to Opera completely, it's hands down the fastest in my testing, hopefully most sites will support it.
John Cardinal wrote:
What's interesting in all this time I've rebutted people here who have tried to convince everyone that IE sucks they've never (afaik) brought up this most significant and damning issue.
That's because people on all sides of the fence that b&m about something are usually just spewing hot air. They are right by coincidence, not by their own merits or technical knowledge. And, erm, I stand with the accused. :~ Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
It's not just scrolling - IE's very slow at rendering loaded pages too. Try this URL :- http://www.thinkingms.com/pensieve/[^] Load that on IE and FF. Then scroll down a few times using PageDown. On IE, there's a noticable flicker and your eyes hurt if you scroll too fast. It's perfect on FF. And remember that I am a guy whose first preference browser is IE - so this is not a biased anti-IE attack that you may expect from the CPHog brotherhood :rolleyes:
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blogThis makes me wonder what we can expect from Ajax aka Atlas under IE. Does IE 7 really address this performance problem? When I tried out the beta (yeah, I broke my own rule, which only re-inforced the rule), IE 7 beta was doggier than IE6. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
It's not just scrolling - IE's very slow at rendering loaded pages too. Try this URL :- http://www.thinkingms.com/pensieve/[^] Load that on IE and FF. Then scroll down a few times using PageDown. On IE, there's a noticable flicker and your eyes hurt if you scroll too fast. It's perfect on FF. And remember that I am a guy whose first preference browser is IE - so this is not a biased anti-IE attack that you may expect from the CPHog brotherhood :rolleyes:
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blogHoly crap, I'd never noticed that (partly because I rarely use IE anymore)!!
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Techno Silliness
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This makes me wonder what we can expect from Ajax aka Atlas under IE. Does IE 7 really address this performance problem? When I tried out the beta (yeah, I broke my own rule, which only re-inforced the rule), IE 7 beta was doggier than IE6. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithWell even if it does, there are still TONS of people out there using IE6 and will probably contiunue to do so until they buy a new computer with Vista on it.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Techno Silliness
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I've been doing a lot of web development lately and I've always had no problems with IE, sure it's odd in a few places with how it does things, but they are always workaroundable but I've found by accident a really compelling reason to use either Opera or FireFox: IE's (v6) javascript performance is unbelievably bad. I have a webform that loads virtually instantaneously in both Opera or FF and IE takes on average 10-12 seconds to load the same page. This is a page with a lot of very highly optimized 3rd party components (Telerik) on it. So if the same page loads and is ready to use in Opera in under 1 second and it takes on average 11 seconds to get to the same point in IE (taking into account caching, debugging etc etc) that's an incredible performance difference. It's the sort of thing that I would be fixing in a hurry if I had the source code to do it. I've researched the problem and in fact it's just that slow, there is nothing further that can be done to optimize away the problem. What's interesting in all this time I've rebutted people here who have tried to convince everyone that IE sucks they've never (afaik) brought up this most significant and damning issue. It's always standards this and standards that. The real issue if that as the web becomes more highly javascript dependant it's very likely that a high percentage of pages that you surf to are going to be much slower than necessary. IE7 supposedly fixes this problem greatly so it's going to be a moot point soon hopefully, but I have to agree that I will recommend that when I release this software users use it with Opera or FF or IE7+ I'm going to try to switch to Opera completely, it's hands down the fastest in my testing, hopefully most sites will support it.
I'm glad you've Seen The Light. :)
Cheers, Vikram.
"whoever I am, I'm not other people" - Corinna John.
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I've been doing a lot of web development lately and I've always had no problems with IE, sure it's odd in a few places with how it does things, but they are always workaroundable but I've found by accident a really compelling reason to use either Opera or FireFox: IE's (v6) javascript performance is unbelievably bad. I have a webform that loads virtually instantaneously in both Opera or FF and IE takes on average 10-12 seconds to load the same page. This is a page with a lot of very highly optimized 3rd party components (Telerik) on it. So if the same page loads and is ready to use in Opera in under 1 second and it takes on average 11 seconds to get to the same point in IE (taking into account caching, debugging etc etc) that's an incredible performance difference. It's the sort of thing that I would be fixing in a hurry if I had the source code to do it. I've researched the problem and in fact it's just that slow, there is nothing further that can be done to optimize away the problem. What's interesting in all this time I've rebutted people here who have tried to convince everyone that IE sucks they've never (afaik) brought up this most significant and damning issue. It's always standards this and standards that. The real issue if that as the web becomes more highly javascript dependant it's very likely that a high percentage of pages that you surf to are going to be much slower than necessary. IE7 supposedly fixes this problem greatly so it's going to be a moot point soon hopefully, but I have to agree that I will recommend that when I release this software users use it with Opera or FF or IE7+ I'm going to try to switch to Opera completely, it's hands down the fastest in my testing, hopefully most sites will support it.
May be this will help: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/08/28/728654.aspx[^] But since JS is not under your control, I am not sure how helpful it wil be for you.
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. -Brian Kernighan
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I've been doing a lot of web development lately and I've always had no problems with IE, sure it's odd in a few places with how it does things, but they are always workaroundable but I've found by accident a really compelling reason to use either Opera or FireFox: IE's (v6) javascript performance is unbelievably bad. I have a webform that loads virtually instantaneously in both Opera or FF and IE takes on average 10-12 seconds to load the same page. This is a page with a lot of very highly optimized 3rd party components (Telerik) on it. So if the same page loads and is ready to use in Opera in under 1 second and it takes on average 11 seconds to get to the same point in IE (taking into account caching, debugging etc etc) that's an incredible performance difference. It's the sort of thing that I would be fixing in a hurry if I had the source code to do it. I've researched the problem and in fact it's just that slow, there is nothing further that can be done to optimize away the problem. What's interesting in all this time I've rebutted people here who have tried to convince everyone that IE sucks they've never (afaik) brought up this most significant and damning issue. It's always standards this and standards that. The real issue if that as the web becomes more highly javascript dependant it's very likely that a high percentage of pages that you surf to are going to be much slower than necessary. IE7 supposedly fixes this problem greatly so it's going to be a moot point soon hopefully, but I have to agree that I will recommend that when I release this software users use it with Opera or FF or IE7+ I'm going to try to switch to Opera completely, it's hands down the fastest in my testing, hopefully most sites will support it.
When I initially wrote my little Minesweeper JS game[^] I included a small recursive function to clear space on the game board and with IE it was slow enough to may the game unplayable to a good Minesweeper. When Firebird, the early name of FireFox, came out I noticed that the game play had no lagging at all ... like it thought it should ... because it is not a complex routine by any stretch. This was my immediate switch from ever using IE again. You are right though, this fact about IE is not raised enough. There are plenty of other things to harp on IE about though ... You guys are familiar with /IE7/[^], right?
Wally Atkins
Newport News, VA, USA
http://wallyatkins.com -
May be this will help: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/08/28/728654.aspx[^] But since JS is not under your control, I am not sure how helpful it wil be for you.
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. -Brian Kernighan
Microsoft: We have discoverd that our car's front tires squeel when making right turns. Solution: make 3 left turns and squeel stops. you have to love microsoft.
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When I initially wrote my little Minesweeper JS game[^] I included a small recursive function to clear space on the game board and with IE it was slow enough to may the game unplayable to a good Minesweeper. When Firebird, the early name of FireFox, came out I noticed that the game play had no lagging at all ... like it thought it should ... because it is not a complex routine by any stretch. This was my immediate switch from ever using IE again. You are right though, this fact about IE is not raised enough. There are plenty of other things to harp on IE about though ... You guys are familiar with /IE7/[^], right?
Wally Atkins
Newport News, VA, USA
http://wallyatkins.comDFU23 wrote:
recursive function
With loops and recursion it is very easy to bring IE to its knees if you don't follow best practises, such as correctly scoping local variables and caching pointers. Especially if you have a large DOM. (I'm not saying that was the problem, just highlighting that as a common one.)
Ðavid Wulff Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
10 PRINT 'HELLO MAINTAINER: GOTO HELL -
I've been doing a lot of web development lately and I've always had no problems with IE, sure it's odd in a few places with how it does things, but they are always workaroundable but I've found by accident a really compelling reason to use either Opera or FireFox: IE's (v6) javascript performance is unbelievably bad. I have a webform that loads virtually instantaneously in both Opera or FF and IE takes on average 10-12 seconds to load the same page. This is a page with a lot of very highly optimized 3rd party components (Telerik) on it. So if the same page loads and is ready to use in Opera in under 1 second and it takes on average 11 seconds to get to the same point in IE (taking into account caching, debugging etc etc) that's an incredible performance difference. It's the sort of thing that I would be fixing in a hurry if I had the source code to do it. I've researched the problem and in fact it's just that slow, there is nothing further that can be done to optimize away the problem. What's interesting in all this time I've rebutted people here who have tried to convince everyone that IE sucks they've never (afaik) brought up this most significant and damning issue. It's always standards this and standards that. The real issue if that as the web becomes more highly javascript dependant it's very likely that a high percentage of pages that you surf to are going to be much slower than necessary. IE7 supposedly fixes this problem greatly so it's going to be a moot point soon hopefully, but I have to agree that I will recommend that when I release this software users use it with Opera or FF or IE7+ I'm going to try to switch to Opera completely, it's hands down the fastest in my testing, hopefully most sites will support it.
John Cardinal wrote:
What's interesting in all this time I've rebutted people here who have tried to convince everyone that IE sucks they've never (afaik) brought up this most significant and damning issue.
Coulda sworn i had, but guess not. AFAIK, it's not quite that straight forward either, since once you get into DOM manipulation, the time it takes to parse innerHTML, insert a new table row, re-arrange siblings, etc. can make a huge difference. And that's just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak - at one time, i had a piece of code that would arrange form controls into nice columns on a rather crowded form. It was fast, simple, and, on IE, badly broken, since if the user changed the value of (say) a checkbox and then resized the window (or opened the search sidebar, etc.) causing the controls to reflow, they would revert back to their original values. I had to use a nasty little work-around involving innerHTML to get things working properly, and in doing so killed performance. (incidentally, i've hit a few areas in Firefox that are inexplicably slow or buggy as well, though none yet as frustrating as this) None-the-less, there are DHTML-heavy sites that are noticeably slower in Firefox than in IE, simply because of how they build the page. And nice as it is most of the time, Firefox's reliance on JS for the browser UI doesn't help here either.
I am tired and sleepy that's why i am at office. -- Adnan Siddiqi, The Soapbox's Future
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I've been doing a lot of web development lately and I've always had no problems with IE, sure it's odd in a few places with how it does things, but they are always workaroundable but I've found by accident a really compelling reason to use either Opera or FireFox: IE's (v6) javascript performance is unbelievably bad. I have a webform that loads virtually instantaneously in both Opera or FF and IE takes on average 10-12 seconds to load the same page. This is a page with a lot of very highly optimized 3rd party components (Telerik) on it. So if the same page loads and is ready to use in Opera in under 1 second and it takes on average 11 seconds to get to the same point in IE (taking into account caching, debugging etc etc) that's an incredible performance difference. It's the sort of thing that I would be fixing in a hurry if I had the source code to do it. I've researched the problem and in fact it's just that slow, there is nothing further that can be done to optimize away the problem. What's interesting in all this time I've rebutted people here who have tried to convince everyone that IE sucks they've never (afaik) brought up this most significant and damning issue. It's always standards this and standards that. The real issue if that as the web becomes more highly javascript dependant it's very likely that a high percentage of pages that you surf to are going to be much slower than necessary. IE7 supposedly fixes this problem greatly so it's going to be a moot point soon hopefully, but I have to agree that I will recommend that when I release this software users use it with Opera or FF or IE7+ I'm going to try to switch to Opera completely, it's hands down the fastest in my testing, hopefully most sites will support it.
Some colleagues of mine are doing a major JS project and have come to the same conclusion. As the project is a good 12 months away, it has been decided that the minimum IE requirement will be v7. Whether we'll get away with that requirement or not remains to be seen. :(
Kicking squealing Gucci little piggy.
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This makes me wonder what we can expect from Ajax aka Atlas under IE. Does IE 7 really address this performance problem? When I tried out the beta (yeah, I broke my own rule, which only re-inforced the rule), IE 7 beta was doggier than IE6. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithMarc Clifton wrote:
This makes me wonder what we can expect from Ajax
Yes Ajax is the solution to all our problems. It's practically divine intervention. It can slow down the speed of light and reanimate the dead among other useful things. Ajax is nothing more than IT snake oil. :laugh:
led mike
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Marc Clifton wrote:
This makes me wonder what we can expect from Ajax
Yes Ajax is the solution to all our problems. It's practically divine intervention. It can slow down the speed of light and reanimate the dead among other useful things. Ajax is nothing more than IT snake oil. :laugh:
led mike
To be honest I almsot agree with your statement but not in the sarcastic way it was meant. Without AJAX the app I'm working on now would be utterly different and many orders of magnitude more annoying to use. Ajax *is* like magic when used appropriately.
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Some colleagues of mine are doing a major JS project and have come to the same conclusion. As the project is a good 12 months away, it has been decided that the minimum IE requirement will be v7. Whether we'll get away with that requirement or not remains to be seen. :(
Kicking squealing Gucci little piggy.
Well in my case it's going to be an issue with only one form in my app out of about 60, unfortunately it's the most important one, but I'm replicating a winform UI and it's perfect as is and I'm pretty certain that the majority of our clients are more than willing to use any browser we recommend as long as they can do what this allows them to do so I'm not going to lose any hair over it. If push comes to shove I can always break the form down more, but users will almost definitely prefer I don't and switch browsers if necessary. I think your colleagues are perfectly safe in that decision. I suspect that in 12 months IE 6 support will not be as much of an issue as people might think.
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To be honest I almsot agree with your statement but not in the sarcastic way it was meant. Without AJAX the app I'm working on now would be utterly different and many orders of magnitude more annoying to use. Ajax *is* like magic when used appropriately.
John Cardinal wrote:
Ajax *is* like magic
Garbage. We have apps running since 2000 that use what is now called "Ajax". It's just standard web development using Javascript, DHTML and server side processing. "Ajax" is nothing more than a term used to market products to script kiddies because they are not developers. Reminds me of Microsoft FrontPage. X| Wait... is this the Soapbox? :laugh:
led mike
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It's not just scrolling - IE's very slow at rendering loaded pages too. Try this URL :- http://www.thinkingms.com/pensieve/[^] Load that on IE and FF. Then scroll down a few times using PageDown. On IE, there's a noticable flicker and your eyes hurt if you scroll too fast. It's perfect on FF. And remember that I am a guy whose first preference browser is IE - so this is not a biased anti-IE attack that you may expect from the CPHog brotherhood :rolleyes:
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blogMan, that is slow on IE! Think it might be all the font changes in the page? Or the "mso-bidi" styles (not even sure what those are)? Maybe IE has to re-create those everytime it renders, where FF is caching them.
- S 50 cups of coffee and you know it's on!
