is there anyone left that hasn't downgraded to drap and drop coding?
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I've used textpad since it first became available and prior was using notepad; and well; i've tried the drap and drop environments avail out there, and besides the obviously messy code generated by every drag and drop environment i've used (asp.NET, macromedia, homesite etc); i still have to open it in code view and then rewrite most all of it just to get it to do nice clean funky things. i don't see how "speed of development" can ever substitute doing a better job. I believe in the philosophy of "there is a way to do things, and a way to get things done... so let the others do things and I'll just get things done" I always end up back in textpad; because if i have to bloody well code it to be more user friendly (you know intuitively so that a monkey could get it right by accident); then what is the point of drag and drop editors??? besides the fact that i worked in a website sweatshop once; and a simple syntax error can hold up the drag and drop university gradutes from their "computer science" classes up for days, which they could've figured out by themselves if they had ACTUALLY coded what the drag and drop editors create. Not to mention the overwhelmingly convoluted long winded over fat code that those editors create. I mean really... have you seen how they take the simplicity of a dbase connection string and turn it from a max of 10 lines to a min of 30 lines of code? and i the only one that see's that the industry is pumping out programmers that have no need to think anymore? No wonder the industry is still trapped in legacy thinking; no wonder when coders read my code they walk away like they've just been exposed to the 9th wonder of the world. I mean i consider myself an adaquate programmer in asp/.NET/php/cfm/python/c++/c# and can write most of my code while i'm in programming dreamland... but really... why be so dependent upon some application to write code for you? how can you have any pride? any self respect? any sense of actually programming and/or calling your self a developer? why create forms that look like everyone else? why do things to be a sheep? why not actually think for yourselves? discover an amazingly dormant human attribute called imagination; and innovation??? please tell me i'm not the only one; man, i see code out there that is so pumped on drag and drop steriods that who'd possibly want to use it.... :I(
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I've used textpad since it first became available and prior was using notepad; and well; i've tried the drap and drop environments avail out there, and besides the obviously messy code generated by every drag and drop environment i've used (asp.NET, macromedia, homesite etc); i still have to open it in code view and then rewrite most all of it just to get it to do nice clean funky things. i don't see how "speed of development" can ever substitute doing a better job. I believe in the philosophy of "there is a way to do things, and a way to get things done... so let the others do things and I'll just get things done" I always end up back in textpad; because if i have to bloody well code it to be more user friendly (you know intuitively so that a monkey could get it right by accident); then what is the point of drag and drop editors??? besides the fact that i worked in a website sweatshop once; and a simple syntax error can hold up the drag and drop university gradutes from their "computer science" classes up for days, which they could've figured out by themselves if they had ACTUALLY coded what the drag and drop editors create. Not to mention the overwhelmingly convoluted long winded over fat code that those editors create. I mean really... have you seen how they take the simplicity of a dbase connection string and turn it from a max of 10 lines to a min of 30 lines of code? and i the only one that see's that the industry is pumping out programmers that have no need to think anymore? No wonder the industry is still trapped in legacy thinking; no wonder when coders read my code they walk away like they've just been exposed to the 9th wonder of the world. I mean i consider myself an adaquate programmer in asp/.NET/php/cfm/python/c++/c# and can write most of my code while i'm in programming dreamland... but really... why be so dependent upon some application to write code for you? how can you have any pride? any self respect? any sense of actually programming and/or calling your self a developer? why create forms that look like everyone else? why do things to be a sheep? why not actually think for yourselves? discover an amazingly dormant human attribute called imagination; and innovation??? please tell me i'm not the only one; man, i see code out there that is so pumped on drag and drop steriods that who'd possibly want to use it.... :I(
jmendham wrote:
no wonder when coders read my code they walk away like they've just been exposed to the 9th wonder of the world.
They start praying when the read my code. But, infact, when I'm not writing drivers, I use every RAD tool I can to speed the process up, and all that tedious handwiritten code you used to have to write to link GUI ellements up to code is done for you. Its not so much a case of not thinking anymore, but not needing to think and waste time with such trivial crap. Of course, when you have to put a message handler in there that isnt covered by the frame work the you have to know whats going on!
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
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jmendham wrote:
no wonder when coders read my code they walk away like they've just been exposed to the 9th wonder of the world.
They start praying when the read my code. But, infact, when I'm not writing drivers, I use every RAD tool I can to speed the process up, and all that tedious handwiritten code you used to have to write to link GUI ellements up to code is done for you. Its not so much a case of not thinking anymore, but not needing to think and waste time with such trivial crap. Of course, when you have to put a message handler in there that isnt covered by the frame work the you have to know whats going on!
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
classes, functions, com 1: write em, reference em, copy and paste; use the same architecture and properties and methods; add new properties and methods to each class, function, com as the need arises (giving this sudden wonderous ability to reference them in every app previously using the class, function, com). 2: buy your own server, cage and pay the few grand every month to run all your clients off of your own machines 3: insert a virtual directory so that all coms, classes and functions are accessible for each client. 4: one change affects all. there is always a faster way without having to use any application out there. btw; i read your profile.. yayy on the f******ing skiing!!!!! and the food :D i'm in europe at least 4 months out of every year... (north america is good money but the people... brrrr, they should call themselves "I'm a NOT coder programmer" :)
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I've used textpad since it first became available and prior was using notepad; and well; i've tried the drap and drop environments avail out there, and besides the obviously messy code generated by every drag and drop environment i've used (asp.NET, macromedia, homesite etc); i still have to open it in code view and then rewrite most all of it just to get it to do nice clean funky things. i don't see how "speed of development" can ever substitute doing a better job. I believe in the philosophy of "there is a way to do things, and a way to get things done... so let the others do things and I'll just get things done" I always end up back in textpad; because if i have to bloody well code it to be more user friendly (you know intuitively so that a monkey could get it right by accident); then what is the point of drag and drop editors??? besides the fact that i worked in a website sweatshop once; and a simple syntax error can hold up the drag and drop university gradutes from their "computer science" classes up for days, which they could've figured out by themselves if they had ACTUALLY coded what the drag and drop editors create. Not to mention the overwhelmingly convoluted long winded over fat code that those editors create. I mean really... have you seen how they take the simplicity of a dbase connection string and turn it from a max of 10 lines to a min of 30 lines of code? and i the only one that see's that the industry is pumping out programmers that have no need to think anymore? No wonder the industry is still trapped in legacy thinking; no wonder when coders read my code they walk away like they've just been exposed to the 9th wonder of the world. I mean i consider myself an adaquate programmer in asp/.NET/php/cfm/python/c++/c# and can write most of my code while i'm in programming dreamland... but really... why be so dependent upon some application to write code for you? how can you have any pride? any self respect? any sense of actually programming and/or calling your self a developer? why create forms that look like everyone else? why do things to be a sheep? why not actually think for yourselves? discover an amazingly dormant human attribute called imagination; and innovation??? please tell me i'm not the only one; man, i see code out there that is so pumped on drag and drop steriods that who'd possibly want to use it.... :I(
jmendham wrote:
why be so dependent upon some application to write code for you?
Do you hand assemble your code? Software development is all about abstraction. Some abstractions are of course better than others. I've seen people make far bigger messes with non 'visual' technologies like classic asp and php..
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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classes, functions, com 1: write em, reference em, copy and paste; use the same architecture and properties and methods; add new properties and methods to each class, function, com as the need arises (giving this sudden wonderous ability to reference them in every app previously using the class, function, com). 2: buy your own server, cage and pay the few grand every month to run all your clients off of your own machines 3: insert a virtual directory so that all coms, classes and functions are accessible for each client. 4: one change affects all. there is always a faster way without having to use any application out there. btw; i read your profile.. yayy on the f******ing skiing!!!!! and the food :D i'm in europe at least 4 months out of every year... (north america is good money but the people... brrrr, they should call themselves "I'm a NOT coder programmer" :)
jmendham wrote:
there is always a faster way without having to use any application out there.
I just write tools and utilities, I havent written anything big in a long time, most of my time is taken up with kernel code, and that is crafted, painfully, line by bleeding line.
jmendham wrote:
they should call themselves "I'm a NOT coder programmer"
hadnt realised it was that bad. When I worked for a US firm a few years back I found they wer very talented, very professional, and very ambitious in their design. I guess things have changed.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
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classes, functions, com 1: write em, reference em, copy and paste; use the same architecture and properties and methods; add new properties and methods to each class, function, com as the need arises (giving this sudden wonderous ability to reference them in every app previously using the class, function, com). 2: buy your own server, cage and pay the few grand every month to run all your clients off of your own machines 3: insert a virtual directory so that all coms, classes and functions are accessible for each client. 4: one change affects all. there is always a faster way without having to use any application out there. btw; i read your profile.. yayy on the f******ing skiing!!!!! and the food :D i'm in europe at least 4 months out of every year... (north america is good money but the people... brrrr, they should call themselves "I'm a NOT coder programmer" :)
jmendham wrote:
i'm in europe at least 4 months out of every year... (north america is good money but the people... brrrr, they should call themselves "I'm a NOT coder programmer"
Come on down to my shop and lets see just how good you are - or think tou are. Richard
Suppose you were an idiot... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself. --Mark Twain
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jmendham wrote:
i'm in europe at least 4 months out of every year... (north america is good money but the people... brrrr, they should call themselves "I'm a NOT coder programmer"
Come on down to my shop and lets see just how good you are - or think tou are. Richard
Suppose you were an idiot... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself. --Mark Twain
Richard Stringer wrote:
Come on down to my shop
give'em hell
Mike Dear NYT - the fact is, the founding fathers hung traitors. Vincent Reynolds: My opposition is as enlightened as your support, jackass. dennisd45: My view of the world is slightly more nuanced dennisd45 (the NAMBLA supporter) wrote: I know exactly what it means. So shut up you mother killing baby raper.
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I've used textpad since it first became available and prior was using notepad; and well; i've tried the drap and drop environments avail out there, and besides the obviously messy code generated by every drag and drop environment i've used (asp.NET, macromedia, homesite etc); i still have to open it in code view and then rewrite most all of it just to get it to do nice clean funky things. i don't see how "speed of development" can ever substitute doing a better job. I believe in the philosophy of "there is a way to do things, and a way to get things done... so let the others do things and I'll just get things done" I always end up back in textpad; because if i have to bloody well code it to be more user friendly (you know intuitively so that a monkey could get it right by accident); then what is the point of drag and drop editors??? besides the fact that i worked in a website sweatshop once; and a simple syntax error can hold up the drag and drop university gradutes from their "computer science" classes up for days, which they could've figured out by themselves if they had ACTUALLY coded what the drag and drop editors create. Not to mention the overwhelmingly convoluted long winded over fat code that those editors create. I mean really... have you seen how they take the simplicity of a dbase connection string and turn it from a max of 10 lines to a min of 30 lines of code? and i the only one that see's that the industry is pumping out programmers that have no need to think anymore? No wonder the industry is still trapped in legacy thinking; no wonder when coders read my code they walk away like they've just been exposed to the 9th wonder of the world. I mean i consider myself an adaquate programmer in asp/.NET/php/cfm/python/c++/c# and can write most of my code while i'm in programming dreamland... but really... why be so dependent upon some application to write code for you? how can you have any pride? any self respect? any sense of actually programming and/or calling your self a developer? why create forms that look like everyone else? why do things to be a sheep? why not actually think for yourselves? discover an amazingly dormant human attribute called imagination; and innovation??? please tell me i'm not the only one; man, i see code out there that is so pumped on drag and drop steriods that who'd possibly want to use it.... :I(
At my last job there was a programmer who was notorious for using text editors. He was of the mentality that he could create cleaner code by doing it the old fashioned way. i've tried both just to get the experience, but I guess I prefer the drag and drop as it saves time and that is one thing programmers always seem to be short of.
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I've used textpad since it first became available and prior was using notepad; and well; i've tried the drap and drop environments avail out there, and besides the obviously messy code generated by every drag and drop environment i've used (asp.NET, macromedia, homesite etc); i still have to open it in code view and then rewrite most all of it just to get it to do nice clean funky things. i don't see how "speed of development" can ever substitute doing a better job. I believe in the philosophy of "there is a way to do things, and a way to get things done... so let the others do things and I'll just get things done" I always end up back in textpad; because if i have to bloody well code it to be more user friendly (you know intuitively so that a monkey could get it right by accident); then what is the point of drag and drop editors??? besides the fact that i worked in a website sweatshop once; and a simple syntax error can hold up the drag and drop university gradutes from their "computer science" classes up for days, which they could've figured out by themselves if they had ACTUALLY coded what the drag and drop editors create. Not to mention the overwhelmingly convoluted long winded over fat code that those editors create. I mean really... have you seen how they take the simplicity of a dbase connection string and turn it from a max of 10 lines to a min of 30 lines of code? and i the only one that see's that the industry is pumping out programmers that have no need to think anymore? No wonder the industry is still trapped in legacy thinking; no wonder when coders read my code they walk away like they've just been exposed to the 9th wonder of the world. I mean i consider myself an adaquate programmer in asp/.NET/php/cfm/python/c++/c# and can write most of my code while i'm in programming dreamland... but really... why be so dependent upon some application to write code for you? how can you have any pride? any self respect? any sense of actually programming and/or calling your self a developer? why create forms that look like everyone else? why do things to be a sheep? why not actually think for yourselves? discover an amazingly dormant human attribute called imagination; and innovation??? please tell me i'm not the only one; man, i see code out there that is so pumped on drag and drop steriods that who'd possibly want to use it.... :I(
The fact is that there are some things better done with text, others better done with pictures. Drawing a form is more efficient and effective than coding coordinates; writing a sort algorithm is better than graphically trying to explain one. The same one-sided kind of thinking arises almost everywhere. Server-side code or client-side code? Correct answer: the one for things that ought to be done on the server, the other for things that ought to be done on the client. Both are right; either is wrong. (Wow! That statement belongs in someone's signature!)