Office politics: watching your enemy die
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Believe it or not, I haven't made any enemies at work...
I salute you, POPE John. ;)
I don't know John personally, but from what I gather, the difference is John may be tough as nails, he is honest to a fault. He's an outlaw because he will tell you the truth even when you don't want to hear it. That earns respect.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
then you are letting your company falter
In the long run it may turn out to be a good thing (for the company).
Dr. No wrote:
In the long run it may turn out to be a good thing (for the company).
the long run is up to the owner/bosses to decide, unless you work for a co-op and are an equal share owner in the company. Bosses don't take kindly to you deciding what is good for their company, they would much rather you tell them what is going on and they make the decision.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I disagree with most of the above posts. If you know that the project lead won't respond well if you inform him that he is overlooking things then don't say anything. Just sit back and smile as the project fails. I see nothing wrong with that. I don't have any issues like this at my current job, but I've worked with Aholes before. If someone won't listen to you even though you know what you are talking about then don't waste any energy on it. Just keep your mouth shut, it is not your problem. You can lead a horse to water...
how vital enterprise application are for proactive organizations leveraging collective synergy to think outside the box and formulate their key objectives into a win-win game plan with a quality-driven approach that focuses on empowering key players to drive-up their core competencies and increase expectations with an all-around initiative to drive up the bottom-line. But of course, that's all a "high level" overview of things --thedailywtf 3/21/06
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
If you know that the project lead won't respond well if you inform him that he is overlooking things then don't say anything.
There are other, more effective ways of handling these things. Techies are the first to complain when their lives are adversely affected by the consequences of other people's stupidity, whether it's managers or coworkers. And yet, few choose to develop the skills necessary to head these problems off. It's easier to ignore it, hope it'll go away on its own, and then just complain about it when Bad Things inevitably happen. I do understand your sentiments. However, as my plumber friends used to say, shit rolls downhill. And techies are usually pretty close to the landing zone. When the project fails, and it will, it's unrealistic to think that you'll be immune to the fallout. You can do something about it, or be a professional victim. I choose the former.
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
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Dr. No wrote:
But I don't want to tell him. In the past he has been very ungrateful and annoying. Anything I say could be taken the wrong way. I am sick and tired of helping others to solve hard problems and not getting any recgnition afterwards."
That's too subtle for my taste. Why don't you just beat him up instead?
How about something in the middle like a pit of sharks with laser beams. BTW. My neighbor's job involves breeding mutant fish to find genes which might be shared with humans and possibly be used to cure eye disease. Every once in a while I ask him if he has come up with any 3 eyed fish or ones that shoot lasers from their eyes. The guy is bright, but he doesn't have any ambition.
Using the GridView is like trying to explain to someone else how to move a third person's hands in order to tie your shoelaces for you. -Chris Maunder
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Seeing your enemy suffer may bring temporary satisfaction, but in the long run, what you've done is made your enemy hate you more, and made other people notice your pleasure at another's suffering. So, you're trading long-term happiness for temporary satisfaction. Bad deal.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: God-as-Judge, God-as-Forgiver The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
Seeing your enemy suffer may bring temporary satisfaction, but in the long run, what you've done is made your enemy hate you more, and made other people notice your pleasure at another's suffering. So, you're trading long-term happiness for temporary satisfaction. Bad deal.
... and then because your enemies project turned out to be the CEOs brainchild, your gets canceled and you and all your subordinates are layed off to come up with the funds needed to try and fix the disaster. :doh:
-- Rules of thumb should not be taken for the whole hand.
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Don't listen to the liberal wimps telling you to do what is best for the company. Also don't be passive aggressive since that will not help you. You need some ambition, and get tougher. Do whatever it takes to become a tough business politician. Prioritize your own career ambitions because you are the only one that will. Find some good books that teach you how to manipulate people. After you become the CEO you can worry about doing what is best for the company.
led mike
led mike wrote:
Don't listen to the liberal wimps telling you to do what is best for the company. Also don't be passive aggressive since that will not help you.
Too right! Companies are frequently doing the wrong thing for themselves and one should not feel obliged to go down with the ship. Still passive-aggressive solves no problems including your own dilemmas. I watched a company spend several million dollars on an SAP system that a year after I departed was scrapped because it was a failure. I quietly warned a few people but their minds were closed to what I told them. In the end those that sponsored the project were all gone (fired) to other places. But so too were a lot of good people who thought the company was taking the wrong track at that time...
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I don't know John personally, but from what I gather, the difference is John may be tough as nails, he is honest to a fault. He's an outlaw because he will tell you the truth even when you don't want to hear it. That earns respect.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
I hear you. I used to work with a person who was the most politically incorrect, cracking Indian jokes directly to us and so forth. He was consistent and funny though. Most Indians/Chinese/others used to hang out with him for lunch, coffee, and smoke breaks.
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And you really think these kinds of advice will help him?
led mike wrote:
Find some good books that teach you how to manipulate people
Isn't it a little simplistic? People are not that dumb. This kind of thinking can backfire at you very badly. Did you apply to yourself what you are preaching? Are you a CEO?
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
And you really think these kinds of advice will help him?
I don't know if it "will" but I know it "could".
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
Isn't it a little simplistic?
Absolutly
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
People are not that dumb.
You don't have to be "dumb" to enjoy being manpulated.
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
This kind of thinking can backfire at you very badly.
Which is why I said "good" books.
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
Did you apply to yourself what you are preaching?
Yes.
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
Are you a CEO?
No, therefore I don't worry about what is best for the company, rather what is best for me. Any more questions?
led mike
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Pierre Leclercq wrote:
And you really think these kinds of advice will help him?
I don't know if it "will" but I know it "could".
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
Isn't it a little simplistic?
Absolutly
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
People are not that dumb.
You don't have to be "dumb" to enjoy being manpulated.
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
This kind of thinking can backfire at you very badly.
Which is why I said "good" books.
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
Did you apply to yourself what you are preaching?
Yes.
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
Are you a CEO?
No, therefore I don't worry about what is best for the company, rather what is best for me. Any more questions?
led mike
:zzz:
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:zzz:
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"Well, needless to day I have made several enemies at work (who hasn't?). I don't get along with a project lead recently. He is working on a major release. I know he is overlooking some important things on this project and it is likely the release will be a failure. But I don't want to tell him. In the past he has been very ungrateful and annoying. Anything I say could be taken the wrong way. I am sick and tired of helping others to solve hard problems and not getting any recgnition afterwards." Now I am waiting for your 1 votes. But ask yourself first: have you done or thought of doing such things?
Dr. No wrote:
But ask yourself first: have you done or thought of doing such things?
Never. I've never had an experience that bad ( I love Dilbert, despite never having a pointy haired boss ), and even if I did, I'd quit before behaving in a way that would be unprofessional and would only bite me later.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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ToddHileHoffer wrote:
If you know that the project lead won't respond well if you inform him that he is overlooking things then don't say anything.
There are other, more effective ways of handling these things. Techies are the first to complain when their lives are adversely affected by the consequences of other people's stupidity, whether it's managers or coworkers. And yet, few choose to develop the skills necessary to head these problems off. It's easier to ignore it, hope it'll go away on its own, and then just complain about it when Bad Things inevitably happen. I do understand your sentiments. However, as my plumber friends used to say, shit rolls downhill. And techies are usually pretty close to the landing zone. When the project fails, and it will, it's unrealistic to think that you'll be immune to the fallout. You can do something about it, or be a professional victim. I choose the former.
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
Christopher Duncan wrote:
There are other, more effective ways of handling these things. Techies are the first to complain when their lives are adversely affected by the consequences of other people's stupidity, whether it's managers or coworkers. And yet, few choose to develop the skills necessary to head these problems off. It's easier to ignore it, hope it'll go away on its own, and then just complain about it when Bad Things inevitably happen. I do understand your sentiments. However, as my plumber friends used to say, sh*t rolls downhill. And techies are usually pretty close to the landing zone. When the project fails, and it will, it's unrealistic to think that you'll be immune to the fallout. You can do something about it, or be a professional victim. I choose the former.
Usually, I agree with you. At my current job I would discuss any issues with the other managers or get help from my friends and allies. But sometimes politics wins over rational thought and your best move is just to keep your mouth shut.
how vital enterprise application are for proactive organizations leveraging collective synergy to think outside the box and formulate their key objectives into a win-win game plan with a quality-driven approach that focuses on empowering key players to drive-up their core competencies and increase expectations with an all-around initiative to drive up the bottom-line. But of course, that's all a "high level" overview of things --thedailywtf 3/21/06
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And you really think these kinds of advice will help him?
led mike wrote:
Find some good books that teach you how to manipulate people
Isn't it a little simplistic? People are not that dumb. This kind of thinking can backfire at you very badly. Did you apply to yourself what you are preaching? Are you a CEO?
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
People are not that dumb.
Anyone can be manipulated. It's just a matter of knowing what strings to pull...
-- If not entertaining, write your congressman
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ToddHileHoffer wrote:
If you know that the project lead won't respond well if you inform him that he is overlooking things then don't say anything.
There are other, more effective ways of handling these things. Techies are the first to complain when their lives are adversely affected by the consequences of other people's stupidity, whether it's managers or coworkers. And yet, few choose to develop the skills necessary to head these problems off. It's easier to ignore it, hope it'll go away on its own, and then just complain about it when Bad Things inevitably happen. I do understand your sentiments. However, as my plumber friends used to say, shit rolls downhill. And techies are usually pretty close to the landing zone. When the project fails, and it will, it's unrealistic to think that you'll be immune to the fallout. You can do something about it, or be a professional victim. I choose the former.
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
Ya know after reading this thread, I'm not too sure that saying anything would do anything other than get him another slap in the face. It sounds like the guy would resent it and just make the OP look self righteous sticking his nose into the other team's business. Sometimes you just have to let em' learn the hard way. He did say after all that he tried several times before to put in his 2c just to get the virtual slap. Although, if he does point out the potential pitfalls, and they ignore him, and it does indeed fail in that manner, then he's earned the right to snicker. Right now he's only earned the right to be silent, not snicker in the event of a failure.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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I disagree with most of the above posts. If you know that the project lead won't respond well if you inform him that he is overlooking things then don't say anything. Just sit back and smile as the project fails. I see nothing wrong with that. I don't have any issues like this at my current job, but I've worked with Aholes before. If someone won't listen to you even though you know what you are talking about then don't waste any energy on it. Just keep your mouth shut, it is not your problem. You can lead a horse to water...
how vital enterprise application are for proactive organizations leveraging collective synergy to think outside the box and formulate their key objectives into a win-win game plan with a quality-driven approach that focuses on empowering key players to drive-up their core competencies and increase expectations with an all-around initiative to drive up the bottom-line. But of course, that's all a "high level" overview of things --thedailywtf 3/21/06
I agree to a large degree with your sentiments however you still need to operate as part of a team on this project. You can ignore the problem, as you suggest, but I dont think you are well served by this approach. When projects fail the whole team is tarred with the same brush. The blame seldom falls on one person. Good team communication requires the ability to raise concerns while saving face for all parties involved. From my perspective I would issue the project manager a short concise e-mail outlining the concerns that I have (I wouldn't cc it to anybody to save his face). The project lead can act on it or not as his discretion. Doing it this way ensures I have a written record of my concerns and if necessary I can pull out the memo and present it to the upper management if things go into the crapper and my name is being dragged into it. If things do go in the crapper, upper management might have concerns that you didnt bring them into the discussion but you can always state "chain of command" as you justification for not including them in the discourse. As a side note a discreet message can also work in your favor if the project is wildly successful. At least you minimize the damage to your name/judgement. Cheers, David
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And you really think these kinds of advice will help him?
led mike wrote:
Find some good books that teach you how to manipulate people
Isn't it a little simplistic? People are not that dumb. This kind of thinking can backfire at you very badly. Did you apply to yourself what you are preaching? Are you a CEO?
It isn't simplistic, it is narcissistic to be charitable, or pyschopathic, to be less charitable. Probably if you have the kind of brain disorder (and it really is a brain disorder) that leaves you completely lacking in empathy, this will seem like an appealing approach. For most normal people, it just won't work, though.
Matt Gerrans
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I hear you. I used to work with a person who was the most politically incorrect, cracking Indian jokes directly to us and so forth. He was consistent and funny though. Most Indians/Chinese/others used to hang out with him for lunch, coffee, and smoke breaks.
Well, here in the US, corporate policy is that you can be fired for making politically incorrect jokes at work. It's called "creating a hostile work environment".
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
"Well, needless to day I have made several enemies at work (who hasn't?). I don't get along with a project lead recently. He is working on a major release. I know he is overlooking some important things on this project and it is likely the release will be a failure. But I don't want to tell him. In the past he has been very ungrateful and annoying. Anything I say could be taken the wrong way. I am sick and tired of helping others to solve hard problems and not getting any recgnition afterwards." Now I am waiting for your 1 votes. But ask yourself first: have you done or thought of doing such things?
If he is really your enemy - as the subject says - (or you feel he's a dumb-a** that should learn a lesson), my opinion is: Go for it ! But only if he cannot blame you for not "seeing the problem". Good luck ! Marius
--------------------------------------------------------- Complete freedom is a state without context ---------------------------------------------------------
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"Well, needless to day I have made several enemies at work (who hasn't?). I don't get along with a project lead recently. He is working on a major release. I know he is overlooking some important things on this project and it is likely the release will be a failure. But I don't want to tell him. In the past he has been very ungrateful and annoying. Anything I say could be taken the wrong way. I am sick and tired of helping others to solve hard problems and not getting any recgnition afterwards." Now I am waiting for your 1 votes. But ask yourself first: have you done or thought of doing such things?
Dr. No wrote:
I am sick and tired of helping others to solve hard problems and not getting any recgnition afterwards
I would tell don't expect any recognization. Be truthful to yourself and perform to the fullest. Sooner or later, recognization will come to you.
Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself. - Cicero
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Dr. No wrote:
Well, needless to day I have made several enemies at work (who hasn't?)
Believe it or not, I haven't made any enemies at work...
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001I don't make enemies, there are just a few people that I can't get along with very well. But we work together professionaly and they get my respect for what they do :)
WM. What about weapons of mass-construction? "You can always try to smash it with a wrench to fix that. It might actually work" - WillemM