WebStandards and WebDeveloper's life

[Andy Brummer]

Jasmine2501 wrote:

in most cases implementing the most popular or most important parts of the standard exactly right

Yes, but IE gets enough of the most important parts wrong to be a huge PITA. At least web browser quality level has improved to the point where the debate is about how well the standards are implemented instead of which tag combinations will crash which browsers, like it was when I started doing web development.

Using the GridView is like trying to explain to someone else how to move a third person's hands in order to tie your shoelaces for you. -Chris Maunder

[Paul Watson]

That is more a case of using the standard in a way different to what is intended. HTML was for simple documents, not user interfaces. The box model as specced and implemented by compliant browsers works better for documents than for UI. As IE implemented it in older versions was more along what you want.

regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa

Shog9 wrote:

I don't see it happening, at least not until it becomes pointless.

[Todd Smith]

Try cross-platform development in C/C++ then get back to us :D

Todd Smith

[Jasmine2501]

Yeah I think you hit it right on the head there. The standards don't address all possible documents, but the implementation has to.

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[Lior Gonnen]

I don't think the comparison to cross-platform C++ is a good-one. Think about Java programming. Java runs on a VM (Same as JavaScript, CSS and HTML run in the browser). Think you had to write Java code like: if System.OS.equals("Windows") // Do this... else if System.OS.equals("Unix") // Do exactly the same, just a little bit different... It doesn't make much sense, does it?

[Pierre Leclercq]

Yeah, for example function decoration is not specified. MS used this as an argument to develop COM (back in the 90s), because they wanted binary compatibility, not only source compatibility. They claimed they had asked for a standard, and the request was denied. So C++ developers were punished with over a decade of COM programming...

[Pierre Leclercq]

He, he... cross-platform? So far the best answer to this problem is... Windows :) if (document.layers) { // One browser } else if (document.all) { // Another one }

[Rocky Moore]

yeah, that is the problem, they all looked at anything to do with presentation and called it "suggestions". We live in a world of browsers trying to implement user interfaces for a standard that was based for "document" hanlding. A lot like using Excel for you next programming IDE, you might be able to do it, but who would want to. The standards box model does not work for anything, it was poorly designed and should have been dropped in favor of a MS box model long ago. The current box model cannot handle percentages and other presentation elements at the same time. But developers have to pay the price for people that clearly did not pay attention or worse yet, had pride issues as their "document" standards was becoming the basis of a "user interface platform". Anyway, still a sticking point with me, I have spent hundreds or possibly thousands of hours of work of the years making sure different browsers can display information that same. Compound that by the hundreds of thousands if not millions of developers that have had to deal with the same issue. That is a lot of wasted time for a bad standard.

Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: Vista for Web Development, Read this first! Latest Tech Blog Post: Blog changed to Subtext!

[Paul Watson]

Fair enough, poor implementations of the standard around poorly detailed points of the standard have cost us all a lot of time. Though it has gotten better, I haven't had a major browser rendering difference issue in about a year now. It has become easier. Not to boast at all, I am sure you have found it too, that skill makes a huge difference. New people to HTML and CSS struggle a lot with browser issues while those of us who have been doing it a while tend to instinctively avoid the major ones and can easily fix the smaller ones. I just haven't seen anything better yet. No other implemented standards exist and even the unimplemented ones don't seem very good. I am quite amazed sometimes that this whole world wide web thing works what with the hundreds of millions of different computers out there using it. HTML and CSS are crap but, strangely, they work. I'm not sure any other standard would have done a better job. It seems to me to be more a human fault in setting and using the standard.

regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa

Shog9 wrote:

I don't see it happening, at least not until it becomes pointless.

[Rocky Moore]

Yeah, I agree it works but it takes work to make it work.. That's a lot of work ;)

Paul Watson wrote:

I haven't had a major browser rendering difference issue in about a year now.

You are mighty lucky! I went round-and-round not long ago with Opera since they decided to render a couple pixel border on their "form" tag. That took days to find. Of course that was not due to standards, but it sure was a browser rendering difference. As far as CSS goes, as long as you stay away from the Quirks Mode, most late model browsers will render close to the same. But then you are stuck with the stupid box model standard on all browsers :)

Paul Watson wrote:

I'm not sure any other standard would have done a better job.

I do not know about "another" standard, but just changing the box model in the CSS standard alone would have greatly improved the standards. Oh well, guess we are heading for ActionScript or XAML site eh? :)

Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: Vista for Web Development, Read this first! Latest Tech Blog Post: Blog changed to Subtext!