Professional Advice Needed
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ssmith721 wrote:
how should I approach this person about my compensation
Well to be honest I'm guessing most people here are going to say "before you started". But that doesn't help you now. If there is no legal contracts of any kind drawn up, I'm guessing you should go to a lawyer. It's your code they are using so you own it as far as I can tell. You can pretty much ask for anything, but you should seek the advice of a lawyer before you approach them so you know exactly what your rights are. Assuming they are favorable to compensating you then you might want to ask for either a flat sum of money calculated based on the hours you spent etc if you just want to walk away from it, or a percentage of sales if you want an ongoing revenue from it and don't mind being associated with it. Also check with that lawyer about your rights to code you wrote while working for that fortune 50 company, it might be that *they* actually own the rights to anything you write.
Nope, if your contract states that its property of the company then it's not just YOUR code. :(
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I am a consultant at the fortune 500 company and I did not write this code in the 8 hours that I work for them. Also, I have signed the NDA agreement with this startup and another agreement stating that code is theirs and not mine.
Ouch! Well 2 things come to mind #1 you can't really be sure that the code doesn't belong to the fortune 500 company without checking your employment contract. It's not at all unusual for that to be a clause despite the fact that you wrote the code on your own time. #2 if you signed away the rights to the code but didn't get any contract regarding your remuneration you are effectively screwed, either consult a lawyer or chalk it up as a learning experience and move on. A middle ground approach is to go begging to the company you wrote the code for but the cards are all in their hands as far as I can tell so you will get whatever bone they feel like throwing you.
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I am a consultant at the fortune 500 company and I did not write this code in the 8 hours that I work for them. Also, I have signed the NDA agreement with this startup and another agreement stating that code is theirs and not mine.
Something else just came to mind, if you do go the lawyer route and they are confident you can sue for something if it comes to that then ask them how long you can wait to do that, the more money the company makes off your code the more you can sue them for.
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Ouch! Well 2 things come to mind #1 you can't really be sure that the code doesn't belong to the fortune 500 company without checking your employment contract. It's not at all unusual for that to be a clause despite the fact that you wrote the code on your own time. #2 if you signed away the rights to the code but didn't get any contract regarding your remuneration you are effectively screwed, either consult a lawyer or chalk it up as a learning experience and move on. A middle ground approach is to go begging to the company you wrote the code for but the cards are all in their hands as far as I can tell so you will get whatever bone they feel like throwing you.
I get both points. The only recourse for me is to approach the guy and settle it once and for all. If he does not want to pay me enough the only thing I can do is to stop work immediately. He would then have to hire someone else to do the installations and provide support. It will also take time for him to get someone else upto speed with the code and resume with enhancements. So far no one has seen the code except me. He might offer me something just for that fear but probably nothing else. I am just confused.
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Ouch! Well 2 things come to mind #1 you can't really be sure that the code doesn't belong to the fortune 500 company without checking your employment contract. It's not at all unusual for that to be a clause despite the fact that you wrote the code on your own time. #2 if you signed away the rights to the code but didn't get any contract regarding your remuneration you are effectively screwed, either consult a lawyer or chalk it up as a learning experience and move on. A middle ground approach is to go begging to the company you wrote the code for but the cards are all in their hands as far as I can tell so you will get whatever bone they feel like throwing you.
John Cardinal wrote:
It's not at all unusual for that to be a clause despite the fact that you wrote the code on your own time.
The OP is in the States and I know nothing about their contract law, but in the UK despite those clauses being very common they are unenforcable in civil cases unless you have taken company property/knowledge to pursue it. You may still get fired if they find out (and you would have a good case for unfair dismissal with an employment tribunal), but they can't sue you for it.
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music to programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
He is a former class-mate. His promise is "if there is any second guy in the company execpt him; its me" -- I do not know how does that translates in terms of money..
ssmith721 wrote:
how does that translates in terms of money..
Let's see here... Hmmmmm... Carry the one, divide by X...Multiply by 7.4... If my calculations are correct, it comes out to zero.
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I need an advice, I have been working for a startup Incorporated company for almost 3 years now. We are developing a niche software for specific high tech companies. It has a kind of CMS with workflow capabilities. Now the company is making success. The product I built is in production in four major companies and others are siging up/evaluating. I did that on nights and weekends with no compensation. I have a well paid day job at a fortune 50 company with decent responsi bilities. I am the only developer on the project. I designed, coded the whole thing along with installation and support for clients. I spent about 80-120 hours per month on this taking valuable time from me and my family. It has affected my health and my family balance to say the least. The sole owner is now looking for investors to take the company to the next level with more developers and marketing, sales etc. He also quit his day time job and is probably drawing his salary from this company. My question is this: how should I approach this person about my compensation. Given that I have been with this company from the very beginning and have helped it come to a point where it can be commerically successful, what should be my expectations in terms of remuneration. What incentives should I ask for and what bargaining power I have. Please guide me from your knoledle and experience. I just want to make sure that either I get awarded for the blood and sweat I put in or walk out to get myself and my family time for ourselves. Thanks.
Get a lawyer. Immediately. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
John Cardinal wrote:
It's not at all unusual for that to be a clause despite the fact that you wrote the code on your own time.
The OP is in the States and I know nothing about their contract law, but in the UK despite those clauses being very common they are unenforcable in civil cases unless you have taken company property/knowledge to pursue it. You may still get fired if they find out (and you would have a good case for unfair dismissal with an employment tribunal), but they can't sue you for it.
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music to programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
I get both points. The only recourse for me is to approach the guy and settle it once and for all. If he does not want to pay me enough the only thing I can do is to stop work immediately. He would then have to hire someone else to do the installations and provide support. It will also take time for him to get someone else upto speed with the code and resume with enhancements. So far no one has seen the code except me. He might offer me something just for that fear but probably nothing else. I am just confused.
If it's important enought to you and there is enough potential money involved I would consult a lawyer first, the other guy doesn't need to know you did that and at least you are fore-armed with the knowledge of your rights before you approach him, if he is not amenable then you can advise him of his potential liability. Don't feel bad, nearly all of us have been screwed in some fashion at one time or another over these kinds of issues. It's hard to insist on a contract with an old friend (although it appears it wasn't so hard for him but that's between you guys :)) but it's always important as a developer to ask first and foremost "how, how much and when will I get paid for this" before you lift a finger. Any serious company is going to expect this and will feel much better dealing with a developer that knows their worth. Of course your situation is a little different, but the history of software is littered with former friends who became bitter rivals over these kinds of issues. A software project is like a marriage, you never just write the code once then walk away, you're tied to it for as long as there are people who are using it so it's super important to clarify all this right off the start because you are inevitably making a long term committment if everything goes as it should.
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I need an advice, I have been working for a startup Incorporated company for almost 3 years now. We are developing a niche software for specific high tech companies. It has a kind of CMS with workflow capabilities. Now the company is making success. The product I built is in production in four major companies and others are siging up/evaluating. I did that on nights and weekends with no compensation. I have a well paid day job at a fortune 50 company with decent responsi bilities. I am the only developer on the project. I designed, coded the whole thing along with installation and support for clients. I spent about 80-120 hours per month on this taking valuable time from me and my family. It has affected my health and my family balance to say the least. The sole owner is now looking for investors to take the company to the next level with more developers and marketing, sales etc. He also quit his day time job and is probably drawing his salary from this company. My question is this: how should I approach this person about my compensation. Given that I have been with this company from the very beginning and have helped it come to a point where it can be commerically successful, what should be my expectations in terms of remuneration. What incentives should I ask for and what bargaining power I have. Please guide me from your knoledle and experience. I just want to make sure that either I get awarded for the blood and sweat I put in or walk out to get myself and my family time for ourselves. Thanks.
I forgot to ask which state you're in because that can matter. If you're in a right-to-work state, you'll basically get nothing beyond what you can negotiate. Since he holds all the cards, it would be up to him what (if anything) you got. Some states are more strict about labor laws and you could argue that you were exploited and not compensated at all for your employment (be sure to argue that you're an employee). But either way, a lawyer can answer those questions.
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If it's important enought to you and there is enough potential money involved I would consult a lawyer first, the other guy doesn't need to know you did that and at least you are fore-armed with the knowledge of your rights before you approach him, if he is not amenable then you can advise him of his potential liability. Don't feel bad, nearly all of us have been screwed in some fashion at one time or another over these kinds of issues. It's hard to insist on a contract with an old friend (although it appears it wasn't so hard for him but that's between you guys :)) but it's always important as a developer to ask first and foremost "how, how much and when will I get paid for this" before you lift a finger. Any serious company is going to expect this and will feel much better dealing with a developer that knows their worth. Of course your situation is a little different, but the history of software is littered with former friends who became bitter rivals over these kinds of issues. A software project is like a marriage, you never just write the code once then walk away, you're tied to it for as long as there are people who are using it so it's super important to clarify all this right off the start because you are inevitably making a long term committment if everything goes as it should.
I see. I'll definitely get in touch with a lawyer. Hoping that he is open to fair compensation what models can be adopted for it? Stock options, percentage of sales/profits, offer of employment(not lucrative as I am not concerned with my employment), comp. for previous work etc. What are other forms/formulas? What are the pros and cons of each?
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I forgot to ask which state you're in because that can matter. If you're in a right-to-work state, you'll basically get nothing beyond what you can negotiate. Since he holds all the cards, it would be up to him what (if anything) you got. Some states are more strict about labor laws and you could argue that you were exploited and not compensated at all for your employment (be sure to argue that you're an employee). But either way, a lawyer can answer those questions.
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I get both points. The only recourse for me is to approach the guy and settle it once and for all. If he does not want to pay me enough the only thing I can do is to stop work immediately. He would then have to hire someone else to do the installations and provide support. It will also take time for him to get someone else upto speed with the code and resume with enhancements. So far no one has seen the code except me. He might offer me something just for that fear but probably nothing else. I am just confused.
ssmith721 wrote:
It will also take time for him to get someone else upto speed with the code and resume with enhancements. So far no one has seen the code except me.
Well, in my opinion, ball is in your court to get up and walk away. Your former classmate will then have a learning experience of his own :rolleyes:
If you try to write that in English, I might be able to understand more than a fraction of it. - Guffa
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I need an advice, I have been working for a startup Incorporated company for almost 3 years now. We are developing a niche software for specific high tech companies. It has a kind of CMS with workflow capabilities. Now the company is making success. The product I built is in production in four major companies and others are siging up/evaluating. I did that on nights and weekends with no compensation. I have a well paid day job at a fortune 50 company with decent responsi bilities. I am the only developer on the project. I designed, coded the whole thing along with installation and support for clients. I spent about 80-120 hours per month on this taking valuable time from me and my family. It has affected my health and my family balance to say the least. The sole owner is now looking for investors to take the company to the next level with more developers and marketing, sales etc. He also quit his day time job and is probably drawing his salary from this company. My question is this: how should I approach this person about my compensation. Given that I have been with this company from the very beginning and have helped it come to a point where it can be commerically successful, what should be my expectations in terms of remuneration. What incentives should I ask for and what bargaining power I have. Please guide me from your knoledle and experience. I just want to make sure that either I get awarded for the blood and sweat I put in or walk out to get myself and my family time for ourselves. Thanks.
Hi, Some conclusions i make from your question: 1. "I did that on nights and weekends with no compensation" , so you did not receive any payment for your work. 2. You worked three years = 36 months on this project between 80 and 120 hours a month, that's between 2880 and 4320 hours in total. 3. You are currently the only develloper on this project, you could say that all the software that is created for commercial purposes is created by you with the tools you use to build software and your knowledge. 4. The product is ready and up for sales, lease etc, revenue is generated with your work. 5. The product is sold, leased etc to companies for some sort of fee, money is comming in, or deals are made about the usage of the product. 4. You provide installation and support for the product to the users/buyers of this product. This is your part of the story and i have the following questions: Question 1. Did you made any promisses that you would do the work for free? Question 2. If not, did you talk about an hourly price or total fee for your work? Question 3. Did you promisse or agreed that the result of your work would be automatically owned by the Company without talking about a payment or partial ownership in the company for your work? Question 4. Did the owner promissed you some fee or payment for your work? From your remark: "how should I approach this person about my compensation" it seems that all above questions are blank and you have made no hard deal about your work, neither did they! I think that the coding of the software is yours since you have made no deal and received no payment, but it could be that: 1. The idea (concept) of the functions that this software would provide to users is the idea of the company, and you where the person they knew that could realise that concept into a working application, so you have coded the application, you don't own the idea, it's theirs. 2. You have made some suggestions to their idea that are implemented in the end result, in that case you have altered by your work the concept, and part of the endresult is your because of your input in the idea that resulted in the end product. If 2. is true the end result is not totally theirs , and the programming work is yours also since no deal is made. What i would do: I think that you were not clear from the start and they found someone that could realise
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Hi, Some conclusions i make from your question: 1. "I did that on nights and weekends with no compensation" , so you did not receive any payment for your work. 2. You worked three years = 36 months on this project between 80 and 120 hours a month, that's between 2880 and 4320 hours in total. 3. You are currently the only develloper on this project, you could say that all the software that is created for commercial purposes is created by you with the tools you use to build software and your knowledge. 4. The product is ready and up for sales, lease etc, revenue is generated with your work. 5. The product is sold, leased etc to companies for some sort of fee, money is comming in, or deals are made about the usage of the product. 4. You provide installation and support for the product to the users/buyers of this product. This is your part of the story and i have the following questions: Question 1. Did you made any promisses that you would do the work for free? Question 2. If not, did you talk about an hourly price or total fee for your work? Question 3. Did you promisse or agreed that the result of your work would be automatically owned by the Company without talking about a payment or partial ownership in the company for your work? Question 4. Did the owner promissed you some fee or payment for your work? From your remark: "how should I approach this person about my compensation" it seems that all above questions are blank and you have made no hard deal about your work, neither did they! I think that the coding of the software is yours since you have made no deal and received no payment, but it could be that: 1. The idea (concept) of the functions that this software would provide to users is the idea of the company, and you where the person they knew that could realise that concept into a working application, so you have coded the application, you don't own the idea, it's theirs. 2. You have made some suggestions to their idea that are implemented in the end result, in that case you have altered by your work the concept, and part of the endresult is your because of your input in the idea that resulted in the end product. If 2. is true the end result is not totally theirs , and the programming work is yours also since no deal is made. What i would do: I think that you were not clear from the start and they found someone that could realise
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Your are right, there is no mention of money on papers (NDA and code ownership). But I have certainly added countless, significant ideas and alterations to the original concept of the product. This is pertaining to '2' above.
:)
With friendly greetings,:) Eric Goedhart "I love the sound of Servers in the Morning!"
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I see. I'll definitely get in touch with a lawyer. Hoping that he is open to fair compensation what models can be adopted for it? Stock options, percentage of sales/profits, offer of employment(not lucrative as I am not concerned with my employment), comp. for previous work etc. What are other forms/formulas? What are the pros and cons of each?
That's really up to you, but they all essentially boil down to two things: how long do you want your business relationship with the other guy to last for and how successful do you think the product will actually be. Knowing the answer to that will give you the decision to what form of compensation you should go for.
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I need an advice, I have been working for a startup Incorporated company for almost 3 years now. We are developing a niche software for specific high tech companies. It has a kind of CMS with workflow capabilities. Now the company is making success. The product I built is in production in four major companies and others are siging up/evaluating. I did that on nights and weekends with no compensation. I have a well paid day job at a fortune 50 company with decent responsi bilities. I am the only developer on the project. I designed, coded the whole thing along with installation and support for clients. I spent about 80-120 hours per month on this taking valuable time from me and my family. It has affected my health and my family balance to say the least. The sole owner is now looking for investors to take the company to the next level with more developers and marketing, sales etc. He also quit his day time job and is probably drawing his salary from this company. My question is this: how should I approach this person about my compensation. Given that I have been with this company from the very beginning and have helped it come to a point where it can be commerically successful, what should be my expectations in terms of remuneration. What incentives should I ask for and what bargaining power I have. Please guide me from your knoledle and experience. I just want to make sure that either I get awarded for the blood and sweat I put in or walk out to get myself and my family time for ourselves. Thanks.
And now you're asking for free professional advice? :omg: :)
Matt Gerrans
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And now you're asking for free professional advice? :omg: :)
Matt Gerrans