Experience with RentACoder.com ???
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[hides in corner and waits for the 'All Clear' siren.]
____________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, skydiving might not be for you.
Wise lady...:-D If my home Internet connection worked, I'd disconnect the antenna for a few days, just to avoid the backlash. Fortunately it won't be reestablished until the 29th, by which time it should be safe to surf again.:rolleyes: [EDIT] Odd how this got connected to Ed's post, rather than the one I answered... Hmmm... [/EDIT]
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My interest in RAC is from a coders viewpoint. Having spent a few days poking around in RAC, it seems like a few things are basically true: 1. Many jobs are not real. Buyers post for different reasons other than actually buying coder service. 2. Most jobs are targeted towards very low bids, that do not encourage quality. 3. Many jobs are very small and really do amount to homework for actually buyers. 4. Competition with non-US folks makes it hard for experienced US folks to really profit from RAC results. 5. Many buyers post jobs having no clue as to whether they are hard or even possible. It’s clear there is real work on RAC, but separating the wheat from the chaff seems to be a tricky task. Ed
Ed, >>My interest in RAC is from a coders viewpoint. I see...thanks for c.arifying. >>Having spent a few days poking around in RAC, it seems like a few things are basically true:1. Many jobs are not real. Buyers post for different reasons other than actually buying coder service. What EXACTLY makes you say that most of the jobs are not real? If you think about it, there's not much incentive for a buyer to post something that isn't real. Coders are not allowed to do work in advance of escrowing (being selected)...so the buyers aren't getting work done in advance for free. The cancellation rate of bid requests (where buyers don't select a coder) is about 40%. But it shouldn't be expected that 100% of projects should go through. And we do polls on the cancellations. The #1 reason is "lost budget". #2 is "didn't find a coder with expertise in xyz". There just isn't much incentive to post a job that isn't "real". >>2. Most jobs are targeted towards very low bids, that do not encourage quality. Ed, I'm assuming you are from the U.S.? You need to understand that there are two types of business being done on the site. One is outsourcing overseas. These are going to have low bids (from your point of view...not from the point of view of somone overseas). You aren't going to win these bids, so it doesn't make sense to bid on them. The other is outsourcing onshore (in the U.S.). If you see the study done by American University on Rent a Coder, you'll see that most of the buyers are U.S. and they actually do have a cultural bias and tendency to pick U.S. coders. That's part of the reason why the U.S. always is in the top 3 each month as well. Anyway, what you can do is set your filter to ignore the <$100 projects and this way you won't see the projects those types of projects and focus on the ones that you do have a better chance of winning. One thing to point it...it is a big mistake, to look at an overseas outsourcing situation, see a low $ amount and assume that the result must be low quality or low effort work. If $100 is a month's salary in Romania you can be sure that coder is going to put a ton of their best work in for it. What you're seeing is the difference in the cost of living between the U.S. and another country, and assuming that this means there is low quality work being asked for..and being done. That isnt the case. >>3. Many jobs are very small and really do amount to homework for actually buyers. Go to "my bid requests" and count the # of homeowork pro
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If you pay for a quick hack, you get exactly that...an application with little potential for growth without some serious headaches... I guess it depends on your project size, expected longevity, etc... The guys who bid (I was one of them) are looking to make fast money and cut corners wherever they can...in web applications in serious problem as security takes on a whole different ball game (XSS, SQL Injection, etc). For quick and dirty projects I would possibly use those rent-a-coder.com type sites, but for anything serious...it simply doesn't justify. Perhaps if your acting as a senior developer and already have architectural specs hammered out, setup and simply need man power to fill in implementation details maybe then it might make sense. Those sites will quickly make you realize the world if full of developers (saturated some might say) but it's obvious there are far more bad programmers than there are good developers... Personally, if I was a businessman or in a position of power to make a hiring decision...I'd be looking to attract the best of the best from places like CP, SitePoint, etc... But I've always been of the mindset that quality does count...so I guess it depends on your perspective. Cheers :)
It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
Hockey, Check out what I wrote to Ed. It's a mistake to look at an offshore outsourcing situation, see a low $ amount and assume that low quality/effort work is being done. You're appplying U.S. standards for measuring the amount of money to a situation that it doesn't apply to. $100 is a month's salary in Romania...and people will bust their tails and do everything for a month's salary. Remember to take into account different costs of living. Ian RAC
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Sign Top wrote:
The trick I've seen, is to avoid the projects anyone in the world can do ("create a 12 people website in PHP") and stick with an expensive niche. As just one example, people in category #2a tend to be proficient in open source (because it's free so they can get easy access to the tools)...but tend not to be as proficient in proprietary technologies (Microsoft, Oracle) for example. Many of the .NET jobs don't see many non U.S. coders bidding..although that might change if MSFT's introduction of the free versions ever takes off. But there will always be niches.
This is a good point. And some of the better jobs I've gotten through RentACoder have been based on this approach. My expertise is audio processing and MIDI, so I stay on the look out for those jobs; they usually receive fewer bids, so there is less competition. However, there's a limit to how far this goes. I will give you an example. Currently, there is a job up for a "Virtual turntable scratch effect." As I post this, it hasn't received any bids. This is right up my alley. It's audio processing and involves areas that I've had experience with. The buyer is totally blind, so there will be special considerations for writing the application to make it accessible. This is something I've had a little experience with, at least with .NET. In other words, I'm probably the best bet this person has for getting the job done (through RentACoder). The problem is that the max bid is set at $150. Now this is a lot, at least in terms of RentACoder money, but I know it would take at least one to three weeks of working closely with the client to get it right. It would involve some research into the algorithms necessary to create the effect to the client's satisfaction, etc. Plus, making sure it is accessible to him. I just can't justify it for 150 bucks. Just can't. So I'm gonna pass. I guess my point is that the niche approach can work but you need to know exactly how you want to do the job beforehand so you can just jump right in and get it done. If the job requires some finesse, the money may not be there for you to provide it. At any rate, I see from your signature that you're from RAC? If so, I don't want to sound totally negative here. I'm grateful for the work I've gotten through RAC and will probably continue looking for the occasional off-job. Just speaking my mind here, and I guess I'm reevaluating how I use RAC right now.
Yes Leslie, I'm from RAC. With that buyer...if you are indeed the best bet for him/her...the good thing is that they will eventually be forced to come to you. That's the beauty of an open market. No one will bid who is qualified...and they will either have to raise the price, or they will pick someone who is not qualified, go into arbitration, and when they get their money back, choose someone who is (we see this alot...arbitration is a very educational experience for some buyers). >>The problem is that the max bid is set at $150. Now this is a lot, at least in terms of RentACoder money, One thing...just so you know $150 is actually the average size of a job at RAC. Remember that this is an average and includes both types of jobs: 1) offshore outsourcing (which is less expensive) 2) onshore oustsouring (which is more expensive) So it is going to be lower than the average job you could expect for an onshore job. I talked about this in another response, and don't want to post it again and take up space unnecessarily. U.S. coders are always in the top 3 countries every month...which may seem suprising...until you think about the fact that some jobs cannot be outsourced (most 3rd world countries have no laws protecting trade secrets) and because the buyers are from the U.S. and they have a cultural bias in choosing business partners toward people in their own culture (a study by American University on RAC explored this). I think the real underlying issue/problem here is the fact that there are two types of work being done on the site, and the problem is that as a U.S. coder you are forced to weed through all the offshore jobs. It's frustrating to you. Am I right about this? If so, maybe we could do something better to allow you to see only jobs that suit you. Ian RAC
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Ed, >>My interest in RAC is from a coders viewpoint. I see...thanks for c.arifying. >>Having spent a few days poking around in RAC, it seems like a few things are basically true:1. Many jobs are not real. Buyers post for different reasons other than actually buying coder service. What EXACTLY makes you say that most of the jobs are not real? If you think about it, there's not much incentive for a buyer to post something that isn't real. Coders are not allowed to do work in advance of escrowing (being selected)...so the buyers aren't getting work done in advance for free. The cancellation rate of bid requests (where buyers don't select a coder) is about 40%. But it shouldn't be expected that 100% of projects should go through. And we do polls on the cancellations. The #1 reason is "lost budget". #2 is "didn't find a coder with expertise in xyz". There just isn't much incentive to post a job that isn't "real". >>2. Most jobs are targeted towards very low bids, that do not encourage quality. Ed, I'm assuming you are from the U.S.? You need to understand that there are two types of business being done on the site. One is outsourcing overseas. These are going to have low bids (from your point of view...not from the point of view of somone overseas). You aren't going to win these bids, so it doesn't make sense to bid on them. The other is outsourcing onshore (in the U.S.). If you see the study done by American University on Rent a Coder, you'll see that most of the buyers are U.S. and they actually do have a cultural bias and tendency to pick U.S. coders. That's part of the reason why the U.S. always is in the top 3 each month as well. Anyway, what you can do is set your filter to ignore the <$100 projects and this way you won't see the projects those types of projects and focus on the ones that you do have a better chance of winning. One thing to point it...it is a big mistake, to look at an overseas outsourcing situation, see a low $ amount and assume that the result must be low quality or low effort work. If $100 is a month's salary in Romania you can be sure that coder is going to put a ton of their best work in for it. What you're seeing is the difference in the cost of living between the U.S. and another country, and assuming that this means there is low quality work being asked for..and being done. That isnt the case. >>3. Many jobs are very small and really do amount to homework for actually buyers. Go to "my bid requests" and count the # of homeowork pro
Sign Top wrote:
And we do polls on the cancellations. The #1 reason is "lost budget".
Is that a euphamism for "I didn't think it would cost that much!"? Rather than having lost a budget, I'm wondering if they ever had it in the first place and were hoping that they could find someone on RAC that would be willing for very little money. From the posts I've seen about RAC in various forums the buyers involved in those cases are wanting something for next to nothing.
Sign Top wrote:
>>5. Many buyers post jobs having no clue as to whether they are hard or even possible. That's true. But the market quickly educates them. If they don't pay enough, no one bids and they are forced to raise the price. And vice versa. That's what a free market is all about...it's self correcting.
Do you poll for that reason a job is withdrawn? I'm wondering if the buyer will genuinely pick that if they withdraw without picking a bid. If it were me, I'd probably feel too embarrassed to pick that.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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Ed, >>My interest in RAC is from a coders viewpoint. I see...thanks for c.arifying. >>Having spent a few days poking around in RAC, it seems like a few things are basically true:1. Many jobs are not real. Buyers post for different reasons other than actually buying coder service. What EXACTLY makes you say that most of the jobs are not real? If you think about it, there's not much incentive for a buyer to post something that isn't real. Coders are not allowed to do work in advance of escrowing (being selected)...so the buyers aren't getting work done in advance for free. The cancellation rate of bid requests (where buyers don't select a coder) is about 40%. But it shouldn't be expected that 100% of projects should go through. And we do polls on the cancellations. The #1 reason is "lost budget". #2 is "didn't find a coder with expertise in xyz". There just isn't much incentive to post a job that isn't "real". >>2. Most jobs are targeted towards very low bids, that do not encourage quality. Ed, I'm assuming you are from the U.S.? You need to understand that there are two types of business being done on the site. One is outsourcing overseas. These are going to have low bids (from your point of view...not from the point of view of somone overseas). You aren't going to win these bids, so it doesn't make sense to bid on them. The other is outsourcing onshore (in the U.S.). If you see the study done by American University on Rent a Coder, you'll see that most of the buyers are U.S. and they actually do have a cultural bias and tendency to pick U.S. coders. That's part of the reason why the U.S. always is in the top 3 each month as well. Anyway, what you can do is set your filter to ignore the <$100 projects and this way you won't see the projects those types of projects and focus on the ones that you do have a better chance of winning. One thing to point it...it is a big mistake, to look at an overseas outsourcing situation, see a low $ amount and assume that the result must be low quality or low effort work. If $100 is a month's salary in Romania you can be sure that coder is going to put a ton of their best work in for it. What you're seeing is the difference in the cost of living between the U.S. and another country, and assuming that this means there is low quality work being asked for..and being done. That isnt the case. >>3. Many jobs are very small and really do amount to homework for actually buyers. Go to "my bid requests" and count the # of homeowork pro
My guess is that some percentage of RAC jobs are not real because the bidder is looking for free estimates. By doing that, they have some idea of what local developer might charge them, which is all they perhaps intended to do in the first place. Others think they have a $50 job, and then find out it’s a $500 job. Lack of $ results in a no acceptance. I’m not sure that 8% of jobs on a coder site being shown as homework is a good thing. Putting aside the ethics of doing homework, it raises a whole bunch of concerns. Knowing there is a 40% cancellation rate is also not encouraging. That should be red flag for both RAC and anyone looking at that buyer. It would seem to me that such firms should have a much harder time putting the next job on RAC. Ed
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Sign Top wrote:
And we do polls on the cancellations. The #1 reason is "lost budget".
Is that a euphamism for "I didn't think it would cost that much!"? Rather than having lost a budget, I'm wondering if they ever had it in the first place and were hoping that they could find someone on RAC that would be willing for very little money. From the posts I've seen about RAC in various forums the buyers involved in those cases are wanting something for next to nothing.
Sign Top wrote:
>>5. Many buyers post jobs having no clue as to whether they are hard or even possible. That's true. But the market quickly educates them. If they don't pay enough, no one bids and they are forced to raise the price. And vice versa. That's what a free market is all about...it's self correcting.
Do you poll for that reason a job is withdrawn? I'm wondering if the buyer will genuinely pick that if they withdraw without picking a bid. If it were me, I'd probably feel too embarrassed to pick that.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
Colin, >>Is that a euphamism for "I didn't think it would cost that much!"? Rather than having lost a budget, I'm wondering if they ever had it in the first place and were hoping that they could find someone on RAC that would be willing for very little money. I'm impressed how you could know such a thing without ever having talked directly with the buyers as we do. Yes some do have unrealistic expectations. But if it's unrealistic, no one picks them and they have a choice. Either raise the price, or don't get the project done. >>From the posts I've seen about RAC in various forums the buyers involved in those cases are wanting something for next to nothing. Again, this goes back to the fact that there are 2 types of projects on RAC...onshore and offshore. If you are a U.S. coder bidding on offshore projects, you are going to think that's the case. You can save yourself frustration by not doing this (for exmaple by setting your filters). >>Do you poll for that reason a job is withdrawn? I'm wondering if the buyer will genuinely pick that if they withdraw without picking a bid. If it were me, I'd probably feel too embarrassed to pick that. It's an anonomous poll (unless they choose to put their name on it)...so embarrasment is probably not an issue. RAC Ian Ian RAC
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My guess is that some percentage of RAC jobs are not real because the bidder is looking for free estimates. By doing that, they have some idea of what local developer might charge them, which is all they perhaps intended to do in the first place. Others think they have a $50 job, and then find out it’s a $500 job. Lack of $ results in a no acceptance. I’m not sure that 8% of jobs on a coder site being shown as homework is a good thing. Putting aside the ethics of doing homework, it raises a whole bunch of concerns. Knowing there is a 40% cancellation rate is also not encouraging. That should be red flag for both RAC and anyone looking at that buyer. It would seem to me that such firms should have a much harder time putting the next job on RAC. Ed
Ed, >>My guess is that some percentage of RAC jobs are not real because the bidder is looking for free estimates. By doing that, they have some idea of what local developer might charge them, which is all they perhaps intended to do in the first place. Others think they have a $50 job, and then find out it’s a $500 job. Lack of $ results in a no acceptance. >>Knowing there is a 40% cancellation rate is also not encouraging. That should be red flag for both RAC and anyone looking at that buyer. It would seem to me that such firms should have a much harder time putting the next job on RAC. Ed, have you actually used the site? It sounds like you haven't. We're way ahead of you on this one. :) We don't want buyers looking for free estimates either. Remember, we don't get paid if the coder's don't get paid. That's why each buyers has a non action ratio...the # of projects they posted where they didn't pick someone. If you see a medium high cancellation ratio and don't feel comfortable...move on to the next person. >>My guess is that some percentage of RAC jobs are not real because the bidder is looking for free estimates. By doing that, they have some idea of what local developer might charge them, which is all they perhaps intended to do in the first place. They can do this...but again it only hurts them, and their non action ratio. >>Knowing there is a 40% cancellation rate is also not encouraging. If you've done any freelance consulting, you'd know that this a pretty standard concept in business...the concept of the "sales pipeline". You expect a large percentage of people to drop out of the pipeline at every stage. If you're discouraged by this, then perhaps freelancing (not just on Rent a Coder, but even "in the real world" isn't up your alley...and working as an employee for company would be a better career choice for you. Ian
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Colin, >>Is that a euphamism for "I didn't think it would cost that much!"? Rather than having lost a budget, I'm wondering if they ever had it in the first place and were hoping that they could find someone on RAC that would be willing for very little money. I'm impressed how you could know such a thing without ever having talked directly with the buyers as we do. Yes some do have unrealistic expectations. But if it's unrealistic, no one picks them and they have a choice. Either raise the price, or don't get the project done. >>From the posts I've seen about RAC in various forums the buyers involved in those cases are wanting something for next to nothing. Again, this goes back to the fact that there are 2 types of projects on RAC...onshore and offshore. If you are a U.S. coder bidding on offshore projects, you are going to think that's the case. You can save yourself frustration by not doing this (for exmaple by setting your filters). >>Do you poll for that reason a job is withdrawn? I'm wondering if the buyer will genuinely pick that if they withdraw without picking a bid. If it were me, I'd probably feel too embarrassed to pick that. It's an anonomous poll (unless they choose to put their name on it)...so embarrasment is probably not an issue. RAC Ian Ian RAC
Thanks for your input. It is interesting to see how it works from the RAC point of view rather than from the coders' point of view. (Which, given the high number of people from westernised countries here is usually not that favourable)
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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Ed, >>My guess is that some percentage of RAC jobs are not real because the bidder is looking for free estimates. By doing that, they have some idea of what local developer might charge them, which is all they perhaps intended to do in the first place. Others think they have a $50 job, and then find out it’s a $500 job. Lack of $ results in a no acceptance. >>Knowing there is a 40% cancellation rate is also not encouraging. That should be red flag for both RAC and anyone looking at that buyer. It would seem to me that such firms should have a much harder time putting the next job on RAC. Ed, have you actually used the site? It sounds like you haven't. We're way ahead of you on this one. :) We don't want buyers looking for free estimates either. Remember, we don't get paid if the coder's don't get paid. That's why each buyers has a non action ratio...the # of projects they posted where they didn't pick someone. If you see a medium high cancellation ratio and don't feel comfortable...move on to the next person. >>My guess is that some percentage of RAC jobs are not real because the bidder is looking for free estimates. By doing that, they have some idea of what local developer might charge them, which is all they perhaps intended to do in the first place. They can do this...but again it only hurts them, and their non action ratio. >>Knowing there is a 40% cancellation rate is also not encouraging. If you've done any freelance consulting, you'd know that this a pretty standard concept in business...the concept of the "sales pipeline". You expect a large percentage of people to drop out of the pipeline at every stage. If you're discouraged by this, then perhaps freelancing (not just on Rent a Coder, but even "in the real world" isn't up your alley...and working as an employee for company would be a better career choice for you. Ian
I am very familiar with the site, having been there many times over a number of weeks. I have read the project summary of dozens of efforts since posting the first Lounge message earlier today. I think the concept is very good, but the result today a bit lacking. There needs to be more structure to separate the wheat/chaff aspect. Consider Ebay, which allows folks to buy and sell stuff. While clearly different from a service based site, their success rate is quite high. I have bought and sold dozens and dozens of things there. Generally anything I put there sells for a fair price and most anything I buy ends up being OK and worth it. In my case, less than 1% have ever been a problem transaction. Somehow RAC needs to find ways to up the success rate. 40% is many times too high. Ed
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Colin, >>Is that a euphamism for "I didn't think it would cost that much!"? Rather than having lost a budget, I'm wondering if they ever had it in the first place and were hoping that they could find someone on RAC that would be willing for very little money. I'm impressed how you could know such a thing without ever having talked directly with the buyers as we do. Yes some do have unrealistic expectations. But if it's unrealistic, no one picks them and they have a choice. Either raise the price, or don't get the project done. >>From the posts I've seen about RAC in various forums the buyers involved in those cases are wanting something for next to nothing. Again, this goes back to the fact that there are 2 types of projects on RAC...onshore and offshore. If you are a U.S. coder bidding on offshore projects, you are going to think that's the case. You can save yourself frustration by not doing this (for exmaple by setting your filters). >>Do you poll for that reason a job is withdrawn? I'm wondering if the buyer will genuinely pick that if they withdraw without picking a bid. If it were me, I'd probably feel too embarrassed to pick that. It's an anonomous poll (unless they choose to put their name on it)...so embarrasment is probably not an issue. RAC Ian Ian RAC
Oh, and a wee word of warning. If Christian gets to this thread and notices your from RAC then prepared to be flamed regarding your arbitration process. He wasn't all that enamoured with it. (And with that sentence I should probably apply for the diplomatic service)
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
I hear Christian Graus is a big fanboy
the question is... which will get his response first? your joke or the main topic? any bets? :laugh:
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Maybe Chris figured that he can CP run more smoothly by the following snippet:
if (CurrentUserID==UserIdOfChristianGraus && thread.Contains("RentACoder"))
thread,Hide();We should try to start a thread about RantECoder, ad see how fast CG jumps in :cool:
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us! -
Thanks for your input. It is interesting to see how it works from the RAC point of view rather than from the coders' point of view. (Which, given the high number of people from westernised countries here is usually not that favourable)
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
You're welcome Colin. It's been helpful for me as well. The main issue is that I can see that the main difference between U.S./UK coders who do well on the site, and those that don't, is the willingness to weed through the offshore outsourcing jobs, and perhaps a thicker skin. We can do a better job in that regard by segregating the onshore and the offshore projects. That would reduce the frustration level of coders bidding on the wrong types of projects. Ian RAC
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I am very familiar with the site, having been there many times over a number of weeks. I have read the project summary of dozens of efforts since posting the first Lounge message earlier today. I think the concept is very good, but the result today a bit lacking. There needs to be more structure to separate the wheat/chaff aspect. Consider Ebay, which allows folks to buy and sell stuff. While clearly different from a service based site, their success rate is quite high. I have bought and sold dozens and dozens of things there. Generally anything I put there sells for a fair price and most anything I buy ends up being OK and worth it. In my case, less than 1% have ever been a problem transaction. Somehow RAC needs to find ways to up the success rate. 40% is many times too high. Ed
Ed, You're right about seperating them (although I hestitate to use "wheat" and "chaff"...because what you are calling chaff is actaully wheat...and well paying wheat...to someone else). From talking on here I've realized that what needs to be done is a better way to allow U.S./UK coders to focus only on the onshore projects, and not have to weed through the offshore ones. That would eliminate the frustration and increase the sucess rate. >>Somehow RAC needs to find ways to up the success rate. 40% is many times too high. I disagree that you can fairly compare RAC services to ebay's physical goods, but everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. Thanks Ed for the useful feedback. Ian RAC
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Oh, and a wee word of warning. If Christian gets to this thread and notices your from RAC then prepared to be flamed regarding your arbitration process. He wasn't all that enamoured with it. (And with that sentence I should probably apply for the diplomatic service)
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
Colin. >>Oh, and a wee word of warning. If Christian gets to this thread and notices your from RAC then prepared to be flamed regarding your arbitration process. He wasn't all that enamoured with it. (And with that sentence I should probably apply for the diplomatic service) :) I'm not sure what Christian's last name is...or I would look up his account and see exactly what the issue is. I will say this...if he DOES post here and everything he posts is accurate, and a mistake was made on his arbitration...I will not only correct it but also apologize publicly to him for it here. On the other hand if he posts anything that is inaccurate (or the proper result was rendered, and he's one of those types whose emotions makes him feel he should have won, even though the facts didn't) then I'm going to be posting his arbitration publicly and will be requesting that he apologize. RAC Ian
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Ed, You're right about seperating them (although I hestitate to use "wheat" and "chaff"...because what you are calling chaff is actaully wheat...and well paying wheat...to someone else). From talking on here I've realized that what needs to be done is a better way to allow U.S./UK coders to focus only on the onshore projects, and not have to weed through the offshore ones. That would eliminate the frustration and increase the sucess rate. >>Somehow RAC needs to find ways to up the success rate. 40% is many times too high. I disagree that you can fairly compare RAC services to ebay's physical goods, but everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. Thanks Ed for the useful feedback. Ian RAC
I really don't mean to compare them, as they are clearly different. However one might have expected that buying and selling blind goods to blind customers would have had a poorer success rate than the buying/selling of professional services. 40% is a big number. Finding ways to drive that down is a very good thing to consider. Ed
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Ed, You're right about seperating them (although I hestitate to use "wheat" and "chaff"...because what you are calling chaff is actaully wheat...and well paying wheat...to someone else). From talking on here I've realized that what needs to be done is a better way to allow U.S./UK coders to focus only on the onshore projects, and not have to weed through the offshore ones. That would eliminate the frustration and increase the sucess rate. >>Somehow RAC needs to find ways to up the success rate. 40% is many times too high. I disagree that you can fairly compare RAC services to ebay's physical goods, but everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. Thanks Ed for the useful feedback. Ian RAC
Having done bids in the software industry for some time, I can tell you that 40% is not all the far off base. I agree that for a coder coming in it can seem high, but the reality is that software projects are just like any other project and get canceled or moved down in importance and are forgotten about. The non-action ratio was very useful for me in bidding on big projects that required time to even come up with a bid. I never wasted time if the buyer had a bad ratio, because it was likely not worth my time. As for the US/UK programmers I agree with you that there should be some separation there. In talking with the buyers I worked with on RAC I found two types, the ones that liked working with US types (for time zone, culture preference, etc) and the ones that really didn't care if it was US or Offshore. The ones preferring US always paid hire and were generally more open to paying more if the job went over, but they are very difficult to find out of the bulk of jobs. What would be useful is a metric that told you what % of projects a buyer went overseas for as opposed to US. I don't know if that would be discriminatory or not but it would be useful for US coders ;)
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
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amclint wrote:
So you write articles and get people requesting you do work, just from them seeing the articles?
Yes. I've had several small contracts and two large ones, one that lasted a year, the other that has lasted 2 years so far, though my involvement in the work has petered down to 0 now. I also have a collection of contacts in case I need to look for work, which I much prefer as a first approach. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
Any have experiences with www.rentacoder.com either positive or negative? Ed
Don't bother bidding if you value you time at somewhere near $10 an hour or higher. I've seen bids for stuff as low as $5 for something I wouldn't attempt for less than $50. The 3rd-worlders will undercut you every time. To them $5 is a fortune (even after rentacoder takes it 15% cut).
John P.
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Hockey, Check out what I wrote to Ed. It's a mistake to look at an offshore outsourcing situation, see a low $ amount and assume that low quality/effort work is being done. You're appplying U.S. standards for measuring the amount of money to a situation that it doesn't apply to. $100 is a month's salary in Romania...and people will bust their tails and do everything for a month's salary. Remember to take into account different costs of living. Ian RAC
I can tell you Ian from experience that the opinion of lower quality code from outsourcing out of the US is not a biased one but a valid one in many cases. I am not talking about the cost of the project at all, but the experience and discipline of the coder that is bidding. Having personally cleaned up many websites done by coders in India, Romania, Pakistan, Turkey and Israel I can tell you that standard coding practices are not employed in most situations. The code can be bloated, overly complex and have no documentation (comments in code or external) and worst of all is often not even fully tested. In a few situations a large site was done by several different coders over the course of a few months, by completion there were issues with different coding styles being employed in some modules and not others. This is a large headache for someone picking up the site for fixes or additions down the road, as you have to pick through code very slowly in order to get anything done at all. Compare that to projects done by US coders and I do see some with the same tendencies, but to a far lesser extent. From my experience it is statistically not worth it to outsource work as it costs more in the long run on most projects. Again this is from my experience, which happens to be filled with projects picked up that had already been outsourced and completed (or had been outsourced and the coder went MIA on the project part way through). I realize you have alternate opinions (I would hope so since you make a living off people outsourcing), but for software that is even remotely complex I will never outsource as I find it a waste of time and resources.
if (!interested){return false;} amclint