Experience with RentACoder.com ???
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My guess is that some percentage of RAC jobs are not real because the bidder is looking for free estimates. By doing that, they have some idea of what local developer might charge them, which is all they perhaps intended to do in the first place. Others think they have a $50 job, and then find out it’s a $500 job. Lack of $ results in a no acceptance. I’m not sure that 8% of jobs on a coder site being shown as homework is a good thing. Putting aside the ethics of doing homework, it raises a whole bunch of concerns. Knowing there is a 40% cancellation rate is also not encouraging. That should be red flag for both RAC and anyone looking at that buyer. It would seem to me that such firms should have a much harder time putting the next job on RAC. Ed
Ed, >>My guess is that some percentage of RAC jobs are not real because the bidder is looking for free estimates. By doing that, they have some idea of what local developer might charge them, which is all they perhaps intended to do in the first place. Others think they have a $50 job, and then find out it’s a $500 job. Lack of $ results in a no acceptance. >>Knowing there is a 40% cancellation rate is also not encouraging. That should be red flag for both RAC and anyone looking at that buyer. It would seem to me that such firms should have a much harder time putting the next job on RAC. Ed, have you actually used the site? It sounds like you haven't. We're way ahead of you on this one. :) We don't want buyers looking for free estimates either. Remember, we don't get paid if the coder's don't get paid. That's why each buyers has a non action ratio...the # of projects they posted where they didn't pick someone. If you see a medium high cancellation ratio and don't feel comfortable...move on to the next person. >>My guess is that some percentage of RAC jobs are not real because the bidder is looking for free estimates. By doing that, they have some idea of what local developer might charge them, which is all they perhaps intended to do in the first place. They can do this...but again it only hurts them, and their non action ratio. >>Knowing there is a 40% cancellation rate is also not encouraging. If you've done any freelance consulting, you'd know that this a pretty standard concept in business...the concept of the "sales pipeline". You expect a large percentage of people to drop out of the pipeline at every stage. If you're discouraged by this, then perhaps freelancing (not just on Rent a Coder, but even "in the real world" isn't up your alley...and working as an employee for company would be a better career choice for you. Ian
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Colin, >>Is that a euphamism for "I didn't think it would cost that much!"? Rather than having lost a budget, I'm wondering if they ever had it in the first place and were hoping that they could find someone on RAC that would be willing for very little money. I'm impressed how you could know such a thing without ever having talked directly with the buyers as we do. Yes some do have unrealistic expectations. But if it's unrealistic, no one picks them and they have a choice. Either raise the price, or don't get the project done. >>From the posts I've seen about RAC in various forums the buyers involved in those cases are wanting something for next to nothing. Again, this goes back to the fact that there are 2 types of projects on RAC...onshore and offshore. If you are a U.S. coder bidding on offshore projects, you are going to think that's the case. You can save yourself frustration by not doing this (for exmaple by setting your filters). >>Do you poll for that reason a job is withdrawn? I'm wondering if the buyer will genuinely pick that if they withdraw without picking a bid. If it were me, I'd probably feel too embarrassed to pick that. It's an anonomous poll (unless they choose to put their name on it)...so embarrasment is probably not an issue. RAC Ian Ian RAC
Thanks for your input. It is interesting to see how it works from the RAC point of view rather than from the coders' point of view. (Which, given the high number of people from westernised countries here is usually not that favourable)
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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Ed, >>My guess is that some percentage of RAC jobs are not real because the bidder is looking for free estimates. By doing that, they have some idea of what local developer might charge them, which is all they perhaps intended to do in the first place. Others think they have a $50 job, and then find out it’s a $500 job. Lack of $ results in a no acceptance. >>Knowing there is a 40% cancellation rate is also not encouraging. That should be red flag for both RAC and anyone looking at that buyer. It would seem to me that such firms should have a much harder time putting the next job on RAC. Ed, have you actually used the site? It sounds like you haven't. We're way ahead of you on this one. :) We don't want buyers looking for free estimates either. Remember, we don't get paid if the coder's don't get paid. That's why each buyers has a non action ratio...the # of projects they posted where they didn't pick someone. If you see a medium high cancellation ratio and don't feel comfortable...move on to the next person. >>My guess is that some percentage of RAC jobs are not real because the bidder is looking for free estimates. By doing that, they have some idea of what local developer might charge them, which is all they perhaps intended to do in the first place. They can do this...but again it only hurts them, and their non action ratio. >>Knowing there is a 40% cancellation rate is also not encouraging. If you've done any freelance consulting, you'd know that this a pretty standard concept in business...the concept of the "sales pipeline". You expect a large percentage of people to drop out of the pipeline at every stage. If you're discouraged by this, then perhaps freelancing (not just on Rent a Coder, but even "in the real world" isn't up your alley...and working as an employee for company would be a better career choice for you. Ian
I am very familiar with the site, having been there many times over a number of weeks. I have read the project summary of dozens of efforts since posting the first Lounge message earlier today. I think the concept is very good, but the result today a bit lacking. There needs to be more structure to separate the wheat/chaff aspect. Consider Ebay, which allows folks to buy and sell stuff. While clearly different from a service based site, their success rate is quite high. I have bought and sold dozens and dozens of things there. Generally anything I put there sells for a fair price and most anything I buy ends up being OK and worth it. In my case, less than 1% have ever been a problem transaction. Somehow RAC needs to find ways to up the success rate. 40% is many times too high. Ed
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Colin, >>Is that a euphamism for "I didn't think it would cost that much!"? Rather than having lost a budget, I'm wondering if they ever had it in the first place and were hoping that they could find someone on RAC that would be willing for very little money. I'm impressed how you could know such a thing without ever having talked directly with the buyers as we do. Yes some do have unrealistic expectations. But if it's unrealistic, no one picks them and they have a choice. Either raise the price, or don't get the project done. >>From the posts I've seen about RAC in various forums the buyers involved in those cases are wanting something for next to nothing. Again, this goes back to the fact that there are 2 types of projects on RAC...onshore and offshore. If you are a U.S. coder bidding on offshore projects, you are going to think that's the case. You can save yourself frustration by not doing this (for exmaple by setting your filters). >>Do you poll for that reason a job is withdrawn? I'm wondering if the buyer will genuinely pick that if they withdraw without picking a bid. If it were me, I'd probably feel too embarrassed to pick that. It's an anonomous poll (unless they choose to put their name on it)...so embarrasment is probably not an issue. RAC Ian Ian RAC
Oh, and a wee word of warning. If Christian gets to this thread and notices your from RAC then prepared to be flamed regarding your arbitration process. He wasn't all that enamoured with it. (And with that sentence I should probably apply for the diplomatic service)
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
I hear Christian Graus is a big fanboy
the question is... which will get his response first? your joke or the main topic? any bets? :laugh:
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Maybe Chris figured that he can CP run more smoothly by the following snippet:
if (CurrentUserID==UserIdOfChristianGraus && thread.Contains("RentACoder"))
thread,Hide();We should try to start a thread about RantECoder, ad see how fast CG jumps in :cool:
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us! -
Thanks for your input. It is interesting to see how it works from the RAC point of view rather than from the coders' point of view. (Which, given the high number of people from westernised countries here is usually not that favourable)
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
You're welcome Colin. It's been helpful for me as well. The main issue is that I can see that the main difference between U.S./UK coders who do well on the site, and those that don't, is the willingness to weed through the offshore outsourcing jobs, and perhaps a thicker skin. We can do a better job in that regard by segregating the onshore and the offshore projects. That would reduce the frustration level of coders bidding on the wrong types of projects. Ian RAC
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I am very familiar with the site, having been there many times over a number of weeks. I have read the project summary of dozens of efforts since posting the first Lounge message earlier today. I think the concept is very good, but the result today a bit lacking. There needs to be more structure to separate the wheat/chaff aspect. Consider Ebay, which allows folks to buy and sell stuff. While clearly different from a service based site, their success rate is quite high. I have bought and sold dozens and dozens of things there. Generally anything I put there sells for a fair price and most anything I buy ends up being OK and worth it. In my case, less than 1% have ever been a problem transaction. Somehow RAC needs to find ways to up the success rate. 40% is many times too high. Ed
Ed, You're right about seperating them (although I hestitate to use "wheat" and "chaff"...because what you are calling chaff is actaully wheat...and well paying wheat...to someone else). From talking on here I've realized that what needs to be done is a better way to allow U.S./UK coders to focus only on the onshore projects, and not have to weed through the offshore ones. That would eliminate the frustration and increase the sucess rate. >>Somehow RAC needs to find ways to up the success rate. 40% is many times too high. I disagree that you can fairly compare RAC services to ebay's physical goods, but everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. Thanks Ed for the useful feedback. Ian RAC
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Oh, and a wee word of warning. If Christian gets to this thread and notices your from RAC then prepared to be flamed regarding your arbitration process. He wasn't all that enamoured with it. (And with that sentence I should probably apply for the diplomatic service)
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
Colin. >>Oh, and a wee word of warning. If Christian gets to this thread and notices your from RAC then prepared to be flamed regarding your arbitration process. He wasn't all that enamoured with it. (And with that sentence I should probably apply for the diplomatic service) :) I'm not sure what Christian's last name is...or I would look up his account and see exactly what the issue is. I will say this...if he DOES post here and everything he posts is accurate, and a mistake was made on his arbitration...I will not only correct it but also apologize publicly to him for it here. On the other hand if he posts anything that is inaccurate (or the proper result was rendered, and he's one of those types whose emotions makes him feel he should have won, even though the facts didn't) then I'm going to be posting his arbitration publicly and will be requesting that he apologize. RAC Ian
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Ed, You're right about seperating them (although I hestitate to use "wheat" and "chaff"...because what you are calling chaff is actaully wheat...and well paying wheat...to someone else). From talking on here I've realized that what needs to be done is a better way to allow U.S./UK coders to focus only on the onshore projects, and not have to weed through the offshore ones. That would eliminate the frustration and increase the sucess rate. >>Somehow RAC needs to find ways to up the success rate. 40% is many times too high. I disagree that you can fairly compare RAC services to ebay's physical goods, but everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. Thanks Ed for the useful feedback. Ian RAC
I really don't mean to compare them, as they are clearly different. However one might have expected that buying and selling blind goods to blind customers would have had a poorer success rate than the buying/selling of professional services. 40% is a big number. Finding ways to drive that down is a very good thing to consider. Ed
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Ed, You're right about seperating them (although I hestitate to use "wheat" and "chaff"...because what you are calling chaff is actaully wheat...and well paying wheat...to someone else). From talking on here I've realized that what needs to be done is a better way to allow U.S./UK coders to focus only on the onshore projects, and not have to weed through the offshore ones. That would eliminate the frustration and increase the sucess rate. >>Somehow RAC needs to find ways to up the success rate. 40% is many times too high. I disagree that you can fairly compare RAC services to ebay's physical goods, but everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. Thanks Ed for the useful feedback. Ian RAC
Having done bids in the software industry for some time, I can tell you that 40% is not all the far off base. I agree that for a coder coming in it can seem high, but the reality is that software projects are just like any other project and get canceled or moved down in importance and are forgotten about. The non-action ratio was very useful for me in bidding on big projects that required time to even come up with a bid. I never wasted time if the buyer had a bad ratio, because it was likely not worth my time. As for the US/UK programmers I agree with you that there should be some separation there. In talking with the buyers I worked with on RAC I found two types, the ones that liked working with US types (for time zone, culture preference, etc) and the ones that really didn't care if it was US or Offshore. The ones preferring US always paid hire and were generally more open to paying more if the job went over, but they are very difficult to find out of the bulk of jobs. What would be useful is a metric that told you what % of projects a buyer went overseas for as opposed to US. I don't know if that would be discriminatory or not but it would be useful for US coders ;)
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
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amclint wrote:
So you write articles and get people requesting you do work, just from them seeing the articles?
Yes. I've had several small contracts and two large ones, one that lasted a year, the other that has lasted 2 years so far, though my involvement in the work has petered down to 0 now. I also have a collection of contacts in case I need to look for work, which I much prefer as a first approach. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
Any have experiences with www.rentacoder.com either positive or negative? Ed
Don't bother bidding if you value you time at somewhere near $10 an hour or higher. I've seen bids for stuff as low as $5 for something I wouldn't attempt for less than $50. The 3rd-worlders will undercut you every time. To them $5 is a fortune (even after rentacoder takes it 15% cut).
John P.
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Hockey, Check out what I wrote to Ed. It's a mistake to look at an offshore outsourcing situation, see a low $ amount and assume that low quality/effort work is being done. You're appplying U.S. standards for measuring the amount of money to a situation that it doesn't apply to. $100 is a month's salary in Romania...and people will bust their tails and do everything for a month's salary. Remember to take into account different costs of living. Ian RAC
I can tell you Ian from experience that the opinion of lower quality code from outsourcing out of the US is not a biased one but a valid one in many cases. I am not talking about the cost of the project at all, but the experience and discipline of the coder that is bidding. Having personally cleaned up many websites done by coders in India, Romania, Pakistan, Turkey and Israel I can tell you that standard coding practices are not employed in most situations. The code can be bloated, overly complex and have no documentation (comments in code or external) and worst of all is often not even fully tested. In a few situations a large site was done by several different coders over the course of a few months, by completion there were issues with different coding styles being employed in some modules and not others. This is a large headache for someone picking up the site for fixes or additions down the road, as you have to pick through code very slowly in order to get anything done at all. Compare that to projects done by US coders and I do see some with the same tendencies, but to a far lesser extent. From my experience it is statistically not worth it to outsource work as it costs more in the long run on most projects. Again this is from my experience, which happens to be filled with projects picked up that had already been outsourced and completed (or had been outsourced and the coder went MIA on the project part way through). I realize you have alternate opinions (I would hope so since you make a living off people outsourcing), but for software that is even remotely complex I will never outsource as I find it a waste of time and resources.
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
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I can tell you Ian from experience that the opinion of lower quality code from outsourcing out of the US is not a biased one but a valid one in many cases. I am not talking about the cost of the project at all, but the experience and discipline of the coder that is bidding. Having personally cleaned up many websites done by coders in India, Romania, Pakistan, Turkey and Israel I can tell you that standard coding practices are not employed in most situations. The code can be bloated, overly complex and have no documentation (comments in code or external) and worst of all is often not even fully tested. In a few situations a large site was done by several different coders over the course of a few months, by completion there were issues with different coding styles being employed in some modules and not others. This is a large headache for someone picking up the site for fixes or additions down the road, as you have to pick through code very slowly in order to get anything done at all. Compare that to projects done by US coders and I do see some with the same tendencies, but to a far lesser extent. From my experience it is statistically not worth it to outsource work as it costs more in the long run on most projects. Again this is from my experience, which happens to be filled with projects picked up that had already been outsourced and completed (or had been outsourced and the coder went MIA on the project part way through). I realize you have alternate opinions (I would hope so since you make a living off people outsourcing), but for software that is even remotely complex I will never outsource as I find it a waste of time and resources.
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
amclint wrote:
but for software that is even remotely complex I will never outsource as I find it a waste of time and resources.
So what you are saying is that the market conditions tell you where to find better quality coders.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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Colin. >>Oh, and a wee word of warning. If Christian gets to this thread and notices your from RAC then prepared to be flamed regarding your arbitration process. He wasn't all that enamoured with it. (And with that sentence I should probably apply for the diplomatic service) :) I'm not sure what Christian's last name is...or I would look up his account and see exactly what the issue is. I will say this...if he DOES post here and everything he posts is accurate, and a mistake was made on his arbitration...I will not only correct it but also apologize publicly to him for it here. On the other hand if he posts anything that is inaccurate (or the proper result was rendered, and he's one of those types whose emotions makes him feel he should have won, even though the facts didn't) then I'm going to be posting his arbitration publicly and will be requesting that he apologize. RAC Ian
Sign Top wrote:
if he ... then I'm going to be posting his arbitration publicly
Just as well you are located in Florida. :-D If you were located in the EU that would be a breach of Article 6b of Directive 95/46/EC on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data. (Unless of course you've got his permission.)
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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amclint wrote:
but for software that is even remotely complex I will never outsource as I find it a waste of time and resources.
So what you are saying is that the market conditions tell you where to find better quality coders.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
It's partially due to market conditions I suppose, being that when the job markets are dry there tends to be higher skilled people willing to do freelance work. What it really comes down to is trying to find the time to adequately gauge someones experience without spending a great deal of money. Typically the process involves having a coder to a small project, and then evaluating it against a control, like another coder you use that is highly skilled. This is also common on RAC, where you will see people offer small jobs with the promise of steady future work (like the holy grail of freelance work) if the job is done with high quality and efficiency.
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
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Don't bother bidding if you value you time at somewhere near $10 an hour or higher. I've seen bids for stuff as low as $5 for something I wouldn't attempt for less than $50. The 3rd-worlders will undercut you every time. To them $5 is a fortune (even after rentacoder takes it 15% cut).
John P.
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Sign Top wrote:
if he ... then I'm going to be posting his arbitration publicly
Just as well you are located in Florida. :-D If you were located in the EU that would be a breach of Article 6b of Directive 95/46/EC on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data. (Unless of course you've got his permission.)
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
I'm sure there could be some legal issues in the US as well, given the nature of the site and the information they require to sign up (SSN for US Citizens for tax purposes). The government has gotten very nasty about privacy issues as of late, consumer rights are highly valued and releasing any type of personal information without permission is not taken lightly.
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
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Ed Dixon wrote:
either positive or negative
let's see... the milder response before Christian finds this.... what positive or negative can be said about "lowest bid" work? We're not talking about lowest bid for quality, we're talking lowest bid, period. If you have dent in your car there are two ways to fix it, the slow meticulous and delicate way of trying to pop it out with either suction cups or removing the panel and pushing it in place, or drilling a hole popping a hook in, pulling it out, filling the hole and handing it back to you. The latter one is real cheap, can be done for about $25, and definately "repairs the dent" just adds extra issues. So too rentacoder, cheap quality lacking code offers keeps the costs to the "requestor" down, but so too the quality of the result. Also, similar to our contract here, there is no standard for grading the result, so even if you do quality work, you may get downgraded for any reason. We stopped doing work with one customer on our contract because he didn't believe anyone deserved more than a 75% grade. Now if you do absolutely perfect work, and can at most receive 75%, why bother? So outside of being good for the college student with no experience, and nothing to loose, it is near useless for both customers and experienced programmers.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Yeah, that's pretty much my position. A forum that focuses solely on price and gives you no way to know who you're hiring will always result in work going to people who are unable to do it, and therefore are happy to work for next to nothing.
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
We're not talking about lowest bid for quality, we're talking lowest bid, period.
Hey, if it works for our government, it should work for coding too, right? ;P Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithMarc Clifton wrote:
Hey, if it works for our government
you are making an assumption! ;P;P;P
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)