Experience with RentACoder.com ???
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Any have experiences with www.rentacoder.com either positive or negative? Ed
Don't bother bidding if you value you time at somewhere near $10 an hour or higher. I've seen bids for stuff as low as $5 for something I wouldn't attempt for less than $50. The 3rd-worlders will undercut you every time. To them $5 is a fortune (even after rentacoder takes it 15% cut).
John P.
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Hockey, Check out what I wrote to Ed. It's a mistake to look at an offshore outsourcing situation, see a low $ amount and assume that low quality/effort work is being done. You're appplying U.S. standards for measuring the amount of money to a situation that it doesn't apply to. $100 is a month's salary in Romania...and people will bust their tails and do everything for a month's salary. Remember to take into account different costs of living. Ian RAC
I can tell you Ian from experience that the opinion of lower quality code from outsourcing out of the US is not a biased one but a valid one in many cases. I am not talking about the cost of the project at all, but the experience and discipline of the coder that is bidding. Having personally cleaned up many websites done by coders in India, Romania, Pakistan, Turkey and Israel I can tell you that standard coding practices are not employed in most situations. The code can be bloated, overly complex and have no documentation (comments in code or external) and worst of all is often not even fully tested. In a few situations a large site was done by several different coders over the course of a few months, by completion there were issues with different coding styles being employed in some modules and not others. This is a large headache for someone picking up the site for fixes or additions down the road, as you have to pick through code very slowly in order to get anything done at all. Compare that to projects done by US coders and I do see some with the same tendencies, but to a far lesser extent. From my experience it is statistically not worth it to outsource work as it costs more in the long run on most projects. Again this is from my experience, which happens to be filled with projects picked up that had already been outsourced and completed (or had been outsourced and the coder went MIA on the project part way through). I realize you have alternate opinions (I would hope so since you make a living off people outsourcing), but for software that is even remotely complex I will never outsource as I find it a waste of time and resources.
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
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I can tell you Ian from experience that the opinion of lower quality code from outsourcing out of the US is not a biased one but a valid one in many cases. I am not talking about the cost of the project at all, but the experience and discipline of the coder that is bidding. Having personally cleaned up many websites done by coders in India, Romania, Pakistan, Turkey and Israel I can tell you that standard coding practices are not employed in most situations. The code can be bloated, overly complex and have no documentation (comments in code or external) and worst of all is often not even fully tested. In a few situations a large site was done by several different coders over the course of a few months, by completion there were issues with different coding styles being employed in some modules and not others. This is a large headache for someone picking up the site for fixes or additions down the road, as you have to pick through code very slowly in order to get anything done at all. Compare that to projects done by US coders and I do see some with the same tendencies, but to a far lesser extent. From my experience it is statistically not worth it to outsource work as it costs more in the long run on most projects. Again this is from my experience, which happens to be filled with projects picked up that had already been outsourced and completed (or had been outsourced and the coder went MIA on the project part way through). I realize you have alternate opinions (I would hope so since you make a living off people outsourcing), but for software that is even remotely complex I will never outsource as I find it a waste of time and resources.
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
amclint wrote:
but for software that is even remotely complex I will never outsource as I find it a waste of time and resources.
So what you are saying is that the market conditions tell you where to find better quality coders.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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Colin. >>Oh, and a wee word of warning. If Christian gets to this thread and notices your from RAC then prepared to be flamed regarding your arbitration process. He wasn't all that enamoured with it. (And with that sentence I should probably apply for the diplomatic service) :) I'm not sure what Christian's last name is...or I would look up his account and see exactly what the issue is. I will say this...if he DOES post here and everything he posts is accurate, and a mistake was made on his arbitration...I will not only correct it but also apologize publicly to him for it here. On the other hand if he posts anything that is inaccurate (or the proper result was rendered, and he's one of those types whose emotions makes him feel he should have won, even though the facts didn't) then I'm going to be posting his arbitration publicly and will be requesting that he apologize. RAC Ian
Sign Top wrote:
if he ... then I'm going to be posting his arbitration publicly
Just as well you are located in Florida. :-D If you were located in the EU that would be a breach of Article 6b of Directive 95/46/EC on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data. (Unless of course you've got his permission.)
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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amclint wrote:
but for software that is even remotely complex I will never outsource as I find it a waste of time and resources.
So what you are saying is that the market conditions tell you where to find better quality coders.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
It's partially due to market conditions I suppose, being that when the job markets are dry there tends to be higher skilled people willing to do freelance work. What it really comes down to is trying to find the time to adequately gauge someones experience without spending a great deal of money. Typically the process involves having a coder to a small project, and then evaluating it against a control, like another coder you use that is highly skilled. This is also common on RAC, where you will see people offer small jobs with the promise of steady future work (like the holy grail of freelance work) if the job is done with high quality and efficiency.
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
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Don't bother bidding if you value you time at somewhere near $10 an hour or higher. I've seen bids for stuff as low as $5 for something I wouldn't attempt for less than $50. The 3rd-worlders will undercut you every time. To them $5 is a fortune (even after rentacoder takes it 15% cut).
John P.
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Sign Top wrote:
if he ... then I'm going to be posting his arbitration publicly
Just as well you are located in Florida. :-D If you were located in the EU that would be a breach of Article 6b of Directive 95/46/EC on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data. (Unless of course you've got his permission.)
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
I'm sure there could be some legal issues in the US as well, given the nature of the site and the information they require to sign up (SSN for US Citizens for tax purposes). The government has gotten very nasty about privacy issues as of late, consumer rights are highly valued and releasing any type of personal information without permission is not taken lightly.
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
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Ed Dixon wrote:
either positive or negative
let's see... the milder response before Christian finds this.... what positive or negative can be said about "lowest bid" work? We're not talking about lowest bid for quality, we're talking lowest bid, period. If you have dent in your car there are two ways to fix it, the slow meticulous and delicate way of trying to pop it out with either suction cups or removing the panel and pushing it in place, or drilling a hole popping a hook in, pulling it out, filling the hole and handing it back to you. The latter one is real cheap, can be done for about $25, and definately "repairs the dent" just adds extra issues. So too rentacoder, cheap quality lacking code offers keeps the costs to the "requestor" down, but so too the quality of the result. Also, similar to our contract here, there is no standard for grading the result, so even if you do quality work, you may get downgraded for any reason. We stopped doing work with one customer on our contract because he didn't believe anyone deserved more than a 75% grade. Now if you do absolutely perfect work, and can at most receive 75%, why bother? So outside of being good for the college student with no experience, and nothing to loose, it is near useless for both customers and experienced programmers.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Yeah, that's pretty much my position. A forum that focuses solely on price and gives you no way to know who you're hiring will always result in work going to people who are unable to do it, and therefore are happy to work for next to nothing.
Christian Graus - C++ MVP 'Why don't we jump on a fad that hasn't already been widely discredited ?' - Dilbert
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
We're not talking about lowest bid for quality, we're talking lowest bid, period.
Hey, if it works for our government, it should work for coding too, right? ;P Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithMarc Clifton wrote:
Hey, if it works for our government
you are making an assumption! ;P;P;P
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Maybe Chris figured that he can CP run more smoothly by the following snippet:
if (CurrentUserID==UserIdOfChristianGraus && thread.Contains("RentACoder"))
thread,Hide();We should try to start a thread about RantECoder, ad see how fast CG jumps in :cool:
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us!peterchen wrote:
RantECoder
:laugh::laugh::laugh:
If you try to write that in English, I might be able to understand more than a fraction of it. - Guffa
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Sign Top wrote:
if he ... then I'm going to be posting his arbitration publicly
Just as well you are located in Florida. :-D If you were located in the EU that would be a breach of Article 6b of Directive 95/46/EC on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data. (Unless of course you've got his permission.)
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
Colin, Actually, Colin, privacy violations are regulated in the U.S. by the FCC and are also illegal in Florida. And, yes all site users give us permission to post their arbitration records publicly. It really shouldn't be a problem to anyone who has the facts on their side. On the other hand, it is a real problem for those who know that the facts aren't. Ian
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I really don't mean to compare them, as they are clearly different. However one might have expected that buying and selling blind goods to blind customers would have had a poorer success rate than the buying/selling of professional services. 40% is a big number. Finding ways to drive that down is a very good thing to consider. Ed
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Colin, Actually, Colin, privacy violations are regulated in the U.S. by the FCC and are also illegal in Florida. And, yes all site users give us permission to post their arbitration records publicly. It really shouldn't be a problem to anyone who has the facts on their side. On the other hand, it is a real problem for those who know that the facts aren't. Ian
Sign Top wrote:
privacy violations are regulated in the U.S. by the FCC and are also illegal in Florida
That's good to hear. We seem to get lots of stuff on the news about how the US government wants personal details of passengers arriving into the US before they've even boarded the plane out of an EU airport and how the EU wants to prevent airlines from divulging that information because they see US data protection legislation to be inferior.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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Having done bids in the software industry for some time, I can tell you that 40% is not all the far off base. I agree that for a coder coming in it can seem high, but the reality is that software projects are just like any other project and get canceled or moved down in importance and are forgotten about. The non-action ratio was very useful for me in bidding on big projects that required time to even come up with a bid. I never wasted time if the buyer had a bad ratio, because it was likely not worth my time. As for the US/UK programmers I agree with you that there should be some separation there. In talking with the buyers I worked with on RAC I found two types, the ones that liked working with US types (for time zone, culture preference, etc) and the ones that really didn't care if it was US or Offshore. The ones preferring US always paid hire and were generally more open to paying more if the job went over, but they are very difficult to find out of the bulk of jobs. What would be useful is a metric that told you what % of projects a buyer went overseas for as opposed to US. I don't know if that would be discriminatory or not but it would be useful for US coders ;)
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
Amclint, >>As for the US/UK programmers I agree with you that there should be some separation there. In talking with the buyers I worked with on RAC I found two types, the ones that liked working with US types (for time zone, culture preference, etc) and the ones that really didn't care if it was US or Offshore. The ones preferring US always paid hire and were generally more open to paying more if the job went over, but they are very difficult to find out of the bulk of jobs. You're right. We need to do a better job of just filtering those out for coders in the US/UK so they don't get frustrated weeding through the other ones. I am actually working on a spec on how to do this right now. :) >>What would be useful is a metric that told you what % of projects a buyer went overseas for as opposed to US. I don't know if that would be discriminatory or not but it would be useful for US coders Right now you can see from the site http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/misc/About/ThePulseOfRentACoder.asp[^] that 13% of the 13,000 projects last month were onshored to the U.S.. The UK took another 3%.. The U.S. rotates in the top 3 countries every month (with India and Romania)...so sometimes it is a bit higher...but it is fairly representative. Ian RAC
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Sign Top wrote:
privacy violations are regulated in the U.S. by the FCC and are also illegal in Florida
That's good to hear. We seem to get lots of stuff on the news about how the US government wants personal details of passengers arriving into the US before they've even boarded the plane out of an EU airport and how the EU wants to prevent airlines from divulging that information because they see US data protection legislation to be inferior.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
Ah...national security is a different story. We deal with businesses so we don't have too many national security issues. But if there is a terrorism (or potential terrorism) tie-in, the PATRIOT act allows the government very wide discretion (some would say too wide). Regardless of one's opinion there, however, that discretion is limited ONLY to the government. No business or citizen is allowed any such discretion. We still have the FCC and other agencies that monitor privacy...and those are in full effect to "normal" people. Ian RAC
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I can tell you Ian from experience that the opinion of lower quality code from outsourcing out of the US is not a biased one but a valid one in many cases. I am not talking about the cost of the project at all, but the experience and discipline of the coder that is bidding. Having personally cleaned up many websites done by coders in India, Romania, Pakistan, Turkey and Israel I can tell you that standard coding practices are not employed in most situations. The code can be bloated, overly complex and have no documentation (comments in code or external) and worst of all is often not even fully tested. In a few situations a large site was done by several different coders over the course of a few months, by completion there were issues with different coding styles being employed in some modules and not others. This is a large headache for someone picking up the site for fixes or additions down the road, as you have to pick through code very slowly in order to get anything done at all. Compare that to projects done by US coders and I do see some with the same tendencies, but to a far lesser extent. From my experience it is statistically not worth it to outsource work as it costs more in the long run on most projects. Again this is from my experience, which happens to be filled with projects picked up that had already been outsourced and completed (or had been outsourced and the coder went MIA on the project part way through). I realize you have alternate opinions (I would hope so since you make a living off people outsourcing), but for software that is even remotely complex I will never outsource as I find it a waste of time and resources.
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
Amclint, Well I don't doubt that you've cleaned up alot of bad code from coders in those countries. I can tell you my story. I worked as an indpendent consultant in the U.S. for several years (before people knew what "outsourcing" was) and took over for many coders in a number of companies. I found that 99% of the time the system was so brittle it had to be majorly refactored to get what the client wanted. About 75% of the time the database design was poor...about 50% of the time basic things like identity fields for primary keys, and foreign keys were not used at all. About 85% of the use of OO was either not done properly or not used at all. I received adequate documentation on maybe 15% of the projects. I've also interviewed alot of U.S. coders in those positions to work under me. I've found that about 10% were very good, another 15% were acceptable, and the rest did not perform at a level where I would employ them. Personally, I don't think this is a U.S. versus non U.S. problem. There are smart people and there are incompetent people in every country. And in today's world, even in places like India, there are now opportunities for training for the brightest. I think it's a software engineering problem. It's just hard to create software properly because it takes intellgience and disclipine. No matter what country you are from. >>for software that is even remotely complex I will never outsource as I find it a waste of time and resources. That's certainly your choice and your right. I will point this out. If you're working for someone else...you can certainly take that attitude without a problem. If you work for yourself (independent consultant) you are leaving money on the table. The new breed of U.S. coder is clearly emerging who leverages outsourcing, by keeping the work for themselves that they do better, managing cheaper outsourced work, integrating it, giving it to the client and profiting more than they would be "going it alone". Ian
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Leslie Sanford wrote:
I've not shared this experience.
I think part of the reason you haven't shared Marc's experience is that you aren't as visible as he is. I can think of 5 or 6 people I would hire in an instant from here - all based on their visibility in the forums first. I can also think of a bunch who I would never hire, despite some good articles. Again, based on their forum posts. For instance, I recognize your name and vaguely remember a synthesizer article from way back but I don't recall the general nature of your posts and so can't form an opinion of you as a person. I'm sure I come across the same way - people might recognize my name, but I doubt they have enough to form an opinion of me. I think the personal networking aspects of the forums likely contributes more to potential contracts because the forums provide a good understanding of a persons attitude, work-ethic, principles etc. The articles back that up with what the person can do. Cheers, Drew.
Drew Stainton wrote:
I think the personal networking aspects of the forums likely contributes more to potential contracts because the forums provide a good understanding of a persons attitude, work-ethic, principles etc. The articles back that up with what the person can do.
Hey, thanks for your response. I really do appreciate it. I will try to get more involved in the forums. I've been meaning to drop by the C# forum to give a hand answering questions.
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Drew Stainton wrote:
I think the personal networking aspects of the forums likely contributes more to potential contracts because the forums provide a good understanding of a persons attitude, work-ethic, principles etc. The articles back that up with what the person can do.
Hey, thanks for your response. I really do appreciate it. I will try to get more involved in the forums. I've been meaning to drop by the C# forum to give a hand answering questions.
Leslie Sanford wrote:
Hey, thanks for your response. I really do appreciate it.
Your welcome!
Leslie Sanford wrote:
I will try to get more involved in the forums. I've been meaning to drop by the C# forum to give a hand answering questions.
I still keep meaning to do the same thing. Too busy sometimes, but who isn't?! Cheers, Drew.
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
We're not talking about lowest bid for quality, we're talking lowest bid, period.
Hey, if it works for our government, it should work for coding too, right? ;P Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithYeah, I love the part in the movie Armageddon where they are about to blast off and the guy talks about how complex the ship is all built but the lowest bidder causing you the warm fuzzies ;) While I am posting, I also liked the "Never want to pay taxes again" comment and the "Get off the nuclear weapon" comment :)
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: Vista for Web Development, Read this first! Latest Tech Blog Post: USA City Burnt To Death...
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Yeah, I love the part in the movie Armageddon where they are about to blast off and the guy talks about how complex the ship is all built but the lowest bidder causing you the warm fuzzies ;) While I am posting, I also liked the "Never want to pay taxes again" comment and the "Get off the nuclear weapon" comment :)
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: Vista for Web Development, Read this first! Latest Tech Blog Post: USA City Burnt To Death...
Rocky Moore wrote:
Armageddon where they are about to blast off and the guy talks about how complex the ship
Rockhound: You know we're sitting on four million pounds of fuel, one nuclear weapon and a thing that has 270,000 moving parts built by the lowest bidder. Makes you feel good, doesn't it?
Rocky Moore wrote:
"Get off the nuclear weapon" comment
:laugh::laugh: Colonel William Sharp: [In response to Rockhound riding the nuclear warhead] Get off... the nuclear... warhead. Rockhound: Just wanted to feel the power between my legs brother. Colonel William Sharp: NOW!
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)