I am dumping C#
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I know I will be flamed for this post. C++ is what earns me my bread. But I take programming as a hobby and not as a job, so most of the time I have fun programming and debugging :) Since I am in France and alone, I got lot of time during the weekends to do something new, so I took C# the much talked about language to learn and also to learn new things about .NET 2 Framework. Yeah it is really good and of cource it makes programming very easy. What would take me 2 weeks or more to do took me a weekend in C#, it reminded me of VB when i was doing COM programming, using a COM in VB is way to easy to do than VC++ But when i wanted to something out of the way, i.e. calling windows api, then there was this p/invoke stuff that makes the C# code file very ugly. Then i read couple of Nishant's article on C++/CLI. And now I am convinced that I have to dump C#. If you are programming in C++/CLI, then .NET libs are just like any other library used in C++ (plus other mambo jumbo). Then I thought for a while why C# has become very popular. I know one guy in CP, he is very good in C++, he once said that when VB programmers comes to his house, they ask him the way to the toilet to clean. And now i belive he lurks a lot in C# forum and posted many articles in C#. The point is C# is close to easiness of VB but syntactically it is like C++. So all the C++ programmers who didn't want to have the VB tag on them because it is so uncool to be programming in VB (even if sometimes it is the right tool for the job) went straight for C# because it is not VB. But a person who likes to flex his C++ muscle every now and then, will find C# very restrictive just like VB. So now I move on to C++/CLI. Good luck to me.
-Prakash
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I know I will be flamed for this post. C++ is what earns me my bread. But I take programming as a hobby and not as a job, so most of the time I have fun programming and debugging :) Since I am in France and alone, I got lot of time during the weekends to do something new, so I took C# the much talked about language to learn and also to learn new things about .NET 2 Framework. Yeah it is really good and of cource it makes programming very easy. What would take me 2 weeks or more to do took me a weekend in C#, it reminded me of VB when i was doing COM programming, using a COM in VB is way to easy to do than VC++ But when i wanted to something out of the way, i.e. calling windows api, then there was this p/invoke stuff that makes the C# code file very ugly. Then i read couple of Nishant's article on C++/CLI. And now I am convinced that I have to dump C#. If you are programming in C++/CLI, then .NET libs are just like any other library used in C++ (plus other mambo jumbo). Then I thought for a while why C# has become very popular. I know one guy in CP, he is very good in C++, he once said that when VB programmers comes to his house, they ask him the way to the toilet to clean. And now i belive he lurks a lot in C# forum and posted many articles in C#. The point is C# is close to easiness of VB but syntactically it is like C++. So all the C++ programmers who didn't want to have the VB tag on them because it is so uncool to be programming in VB (even if sometimes it is the right tool for the job) went straight for C# because it is not VB. But a person who likes to flex his C++ muscle every now and then, will find C# very restrictive just like VB. So now I move on to C++/CLI. Good luck to me.
-Prakash
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I know I will be flamed for this post. C++ is what earns me my bread. But I take programming as a hobby and not as a job, so most of the time I have fun programming and debugging :) Since I am in France and alone, I got lot of time during the weekends to do something new, so I took C# the much talked about language to learn and also to learn new things about .NET 2 Framework. Yeah it is really good and of cource it makes programming very easy. What would take me 2 weeks or more to do took me a weekend in C#, it reminded me of VB when i was doing COM programming, using a COM in VB is way to easy to do than VC++ But when i wanted to something out of the way, i.e. calling windows api, then there was this p/invoke stuff that makes the C# code file very ugly. Then i read couple of Nishant's article on C++/CLI. And now I am convinced that I have to dump C#. If you are programming in C++/CLI, then .NET libs are just like any other library used in C++ (plus other mambo jumbo). Then I thought for a while why C# has become very popular. I know one guy in CP, he is very good in C++, he once said that when VB programmers comes to his house, they ask him the way to the toilet to clean. And now i belive he lurks a lot in C# forum and posted many articles in C#. The point is C# is close to easiness of VB but syntactically it is like C++. So all the C++ programmers who didn't want to have the VB tag on them because it is so uncool to be programming in VB (even if sometimes it is the right tool for the job) went straight for C# because it is not VB. But a person who likes to flex his C++ muscle every now and then, will find C# very restrictive just like VB. So now I move on to C++/CLI. Good luck to me.
-Prakash
I find C# concise and expressive, and that's what I love about it. It's definitely a higher-level language (and therefore missing some low-level aspects) but that's why it has the clean, expressive constructs it has. I like it best for everyday coding. But C++/CLI definitely has its strengths that C# does not have as well! Especially, as you mentioned, in the area of native interop. I'm one of the relatively few people who have both learned it and like it (most people don't get to the "learning it" part). It's just not what I find to be best for my main development work, because it takes longer to code in and is less clean and concise (IMO).
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I find C# concise and expressive, and that's what I love about it. It's definitely a higher-level language (and therefore missing some low-level aspects) but that's why it has the clean, expressive constructs it has. I like it best for everyday coding. But C++/CLI definitely has its strengths that C# does not have as well! Especially, as you mentioned, in the area of native interop. I'm one of the relatively few people who have both learned it and like it (most people don't get to the "learning it" part). It's just not what I find to be best for my main development work, because it takes longer to code in and is less clean and concise (IMO).
J. Dunlap wrote:
I find C# concise and expressive, and that's what I love about it. It's definitely a higher-level language (and therefore missing some low-level aspects) but that's why it has the clean, expressive constructs it has. I like it best for everyday coding.
believe me, this is what was said about VB before C# came into the picture.
-Prakash
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J. Dunlap wrote:
I find C# concise and expressive, and that's what I love about it. It's definitely a higher-level language (and therefore missing some low-level aspects) but that's why it has the clean, expressive constructs it has. I like it best for everyday coding.
believe me, this is what was said about VB before C# came into the picture.
-Prakash
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J. Dunlap wrote:
I find C# concise and expressive, and that's what I love about it. It's definitely a higher-level language (and therefore missing some low-level aspects) but that's why it has the clean, expressive constructs it has. I like it best for everyday coding.
believe me, this is what was said about VB before C# came into the picture.
-Prakash
and ... Are you implying it is not a true statement?
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. -Brian Kernighan
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and ... Are you implying it is not a true statement?
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. -Brian Kernighan
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Are you implying it is not a true statement?
it is true for C# now as it was true for VB then.
-Prakash
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Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Are you implying it is not a true statement?
it is true for C# now as it was true for VB then.
-Prakash
In that case I fully agree. However, C++\CLI is not the answer IMHO. Once you proceed doing some real life apps, you will get frustrated. COM Interop is the way to go in my opinion;)
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. -Brian Kernighan
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In that case I fully agree. However, C++\CLI is not the answer IMHO. Once you proceed doing some real life apps, you will get frustrated. COM Interop is the way to go in my opinion;)
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. -Brian Kernighan
In one of the article of Nishant, he has demonstrated the performance difference between C++/CLI and C#, so i guess for a complex or a big C# project, the performance will be terribly hit.
-Prakash
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I know I will be flamed for this post. C++ is what earns me my bread. But I take programming as a hobby and not as a job, so most of the time I have fun programming and debugging :) Since I am in France and alone, I got lot of time during the weekends to do something new, so I took C# the much talked about language to learn and also to learn new things about .NET 2 Framework. Yeah it is really good and of cource it makes programming very easy. What would take me 2 weeks or more to do took me a weekend in C#, it reminded me of VB when i was doing COM programming, using a COM in VB is way to easy to do than VC++ But when i wanted to something out of the way, i.e. calling windows api, then there was this p/invoke stuff that makes the C# code file very ugly. Then i read couple of Nishant's article on C++/CLI. And now I am convinced that I have to dump C#. If you are programming in C++/CLI, then .NET libs are just like any other library used in C++ (plus other mambo jumbo). Then I thought for a while why C# has become very popular. I know one guy in CP, he is very good in C++, he once said that when VB programmers comes to his house, they ask him the way to the toilet to clean. And now i belive he lurks a lot in C# forum and posted many articles in C#. The point is C# is close to easiness of VB but syntactically it is like C++. So all the C++ programmers who didn't want to have the VB tag on them because it is so uncool to be programming in VB (even if sometimes it is the right tool for the job) went straight for C# because it is not VB. But a person who likes to flex his C++ muscle every now and then, will find C# very restrictive just like VB. So now I move on to C++/CLI. Good luck to me.
-Prakash
Mr.Prakash wrote:
But when i wanted to something out of the way, i.e. calling windows api, then there was this p/invoke stuff that makes the C# code file very ugly.
On the rare occasion that I have to do that I abstract those calls in to a separate class (or classes) then when I need to use it in the business logic the code is clear and easy to read. Nothing ugly to see. Sure the abstract class is a bit ugly, but then so is calling ADO.NET directly in the presentation layer.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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I know I will be flamed for this post. C++ is what earns me my bread. But I take programming as a hobby and not as a job, so most of the time I have fun programming and debugging :) Since I am in France and alone, I got lot of time during the weekends to do something new, so I took C# the much talked about language to learn and also to learn new things about .NET 2 Framework. Yeah it is really good and of cource it makes programming very easy. What would take me 2 weeks or more to do took me a weekend in C#, it reminded me of VB when i was doing COM programming, using a COM in VB is way to easy to do than VC++ But when i wanted to something out of the way, i.e. calling windows api, then there was this p/invoke stuff that makes the C# code file very ugly. Then i read couple of Nishant's article on C++/CLI. And now I am convinced that I have to dump C#. If you are programming in C++/CLI, then .NET libs are just like any other library used in C++ (plus other mambo jumbo). Then I thought for a while why C# has become very popular. I know one guy in CP, he is very good in C++, he once said that when VB programmers comes to his house, they ask him the way to the toilet to clean. And now i belive he lurks a lot in C# forum and posted many articles in C#. The point is C# is close to easiness of VB but syntactically it is like C++. So all the C++ programmers who didn't want to have the VB tag on them because it is so uncool to be programming in VB (even if sometimes it is the right tool for the job) went straight for C# because it is not VB. But a person who likes to flex his C++ muscle every now and then, will find C# very restrictive just like VB. So now I move on to C++/CLI. Good luck to me.
-Prakash
Certainly use the tool that's right for you to do the job.
Mr.Prakash wrote:
calling windows api, then there was this p/invoke stuff that makes the C# code file very ugly.
I put that stuff in a library routine, in its own file so I never have to look at it again.
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I know I will be flamed for this post. C++ is what earns me my bread. But I take programming as a hobby and not as a job, so most of the time I have fun programming and debugging :) Since I am in France and alone, I got lot of time during the weekends to do something new, so I took C# the much talked about language to learn and also to learn new things about .NET 2 Framework. Yeah it is really good and of cource it makes programming very easy. What would take me 2 weeks or more to do took me a weekend in C#, it reminded me of VB when i was doing COM programming, using a COM in VB is way to easy to do than VC++ But when i wanted to something out of the way, i.e. calling windows api, then there was this p/invoke stuff that makes the C# code file very ugly. Then i read couple of Nishant's article on C++/CLI. And now I am convinced that I have to dump C#. If you are programming in C++/CLI, then .NET libs are just like any other library used in C++ (plus other mambo jumbo). Then I thought for a while why C# has become very popular. I know one guy in CP, he is very good in C++, he once said that when VB programmers comes to his house, they ask him the way to the toilet to clean. And now i belive he lurks a lot in C# forum and posted many articles in C#. The point is C# is close to easiness of VB but syntactically it is like C++. So all the C++ programmers who didn't want to have the VB tag on them because it is so uncool to be programming in VB (even if sometimes it is the right tool for the job) went straight for C# because it is not VB. But a person who likes to flex his C++ muscle every now and then, will find C# very restrictive just like VB. So now I move on to C++/CLI. Good luck to me.
-Prakash
Mr.Prakash wrote:
The point is C# is close to easiness of VB but syntactically it is like C++. So all the C++ programmers who didn't want to have the VB tag on them because it is so uncool to be programming in VB (even if sometimes it is the right tool for the job) went straight for C# because it is not VB.
Yup. Describes my decision making process!
Mr.Prakash wrote:
But a person who likes to flex his C++ muscle every now and then, will find C# very restrictive just like VB.
I can't compare it to VB, but having come from a C++ environment, when I look at C++ code now, after 4 years or so of C# programming, I kringe. I haven't found anything that makes C# restrictive. Yeah, P/Invoke can be annoying, and yes, for one of my client's I would never code their algorithms in C#. But all the other stuff can live happily in C# and can easily interface with the C++ code.
Mr.Prakash wrote:
So now I move on to C++/CLI. Good luck to me.
Good luck. Personally, I find C++/CLI to be truly ugly and will never touch it. I'd rather keep both languages well separated. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
Certainly use the tool that's right for you to do the job.
Mr.Prakash wrote:
calling windows api, then there was this p/invoke stuff that makes the C# code file very ugly.
I put that stuff in a library routine, in its own file so I never have to look at it again.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
I put that stuff in a library routine, in its own file so I never have to look at it again.
Exactly. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
I find C# concise and expressive, and that's what I love about it. It's definitely a higher-level language (and therefore missing some low-level aspects) but that's why it has the clean, expressive constructs it has. I like it best for everyday coding. But C++/CLI definitely has its strengths that C# does not have as well! Especially, as you mentioned, in the area of native interop. I'm one of the relatively few people who have both learned it and like it (most people don't get to the "learning it" part). It's just not what I find to be best for my main development work, because it takes longer to code in and is less clean and concise (IMO).
J. Dunlap wrote:
find C# concise and expressive, and that's what I love about it.
Funny. I find it wordy and bloated. Have you looked at Boo, Haskell or any ML dialect?
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Mr.Prakash wrote:
The point is C# is close to easiness of VB but syntactically it is like C++. So all the C++ programmers who didn't want to have the VB tag on them because it is so uncool to be programming in VB (even if sometimes it is the right tool for the job) went straight for C# because it is not VB.
Yup. Describes my decision making process!
Mr.Prakash wrote:
But a person who likes to flex his C++ muscle every now and then, will find C# very restrictive just like VB.
I can't compare it to VB, but having come from a C++ environment, when I look at C++ code now, after 4 years or so of C# programming, I kringe. I haven't found anything that makes C# restrictive. Yeah, P/Invoke can be annoying, and yes, for one of my client's I would never code their algorithms in C#. But all the other stuff can live happily in C# and can easily interface with the C++ code.
Mr.Prakash wrote:
So now I move on to C++/CLI. Good luck to me.
Good luck. Personally, I find C++/CLI to be truly ugly and will never touch it. I'd rather keep both languages well separated. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithMarc Clifton wrote:
Good luck.
Thanks,
Marc Clifton wrote:
Personally, I find C++/CLI to be truly ugly and will never touch it. I'd rather keep both languages well separated.
Well, i cant comment on it coz i havent truely started developing in C++/CLI. But the code samples that I have seen so far is quite similar to usual C++ except for numerous gcnew ref and val around. But it is the same old c++, like where to use free or delete for a memory allocated by new or malloc.
-Prakash
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I know I will be flamed for this post. C++ is what earns me my bread. But I take programming as a hobby and not as a job, so most of the time I have fun programming and debugging :) Since I am in France and alone, I got lot of time during the weekends to do something new, so I took C# the much talked about language to learn and also to learn new things about .NET 2 Framework. Yeah it is really good and of cource it makes programming very easy. What would take me 2 weeks or more to do took me a weekend in C#, it reminded me of VB when i was doing COM programming, using a COM in VB is way to easy to do than VC++ But when i wanted to something out of the way, i.e. calling windows api, then there was this p/invoke stuff that makes the C# code file very ugly. Then i read couple of Nishant's article on C++/CLI. And now I am convinced that I have to dump C#. If you are programming in C++/CLI, then .NET libs are just like any other library used in C++ (plus other mambo jumbo). Then I thought for a while why C# has become very popular. I know one guy in CP, he is very good in C++, he once said that when VB programmers comes to his house, they ask him the way to the toilet to clean. And now i belive he lurks a lot in C# forum and posted many articles in C#. The point is C# is close to easiness of VB but syntactically it is like C++. So all the C++ programmers who didn't want to have the VB tag on them because it is so uncool to be programming in VB (even if sometimes it is the right tool for the job) went straight for C# because it is not VB. But a person who likes to flex his C++ muscle every now and then, will find C# very restrictive just like VB. So now I move on to C++/CLI. Good luck to me.
-Prakash
Mr.Prakash wrote:
So all the C++ programmers who didn't want to have the VB tag on them because it is so uncool to be programming in VB (even if sometimes it is the right tool for the job) went straight for C# because it is not VB.
The point is: VB and C# are targeting the same niche (business or "enterprise" software) and they both do it well. Comparing C# with C++ has little sense to me since they are targeted to different uses. Now, for C++/CLI, the jury is still out, but I wouldn't bet any money on it.
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Good luck.
Thanks,
Marc Clifton wrote:
Personally, I find C++/CLI to be truly ugly and will never touch it. I'd rather keep both languages well separated.
Well, i cant comment on it coz i havent truely started developing in C++/CLI. But the code samples that I have seen so far is quite similar to usual C++ except for numerous gcnew ref and val around. But it is the same old c++, like where to use free or delete for a memory allocated by new or malloc.
-Prakash
Mr.Prakash wrote:
like where to use free or delete for a memory allocated by new or malloc.
Two things I will be delighted if I never see again, ever. :) Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
Mr.Prakash wrote:
like where to use free or delete for a memory allocated by new or malloc.
Two things I will be delighted if I never see again, ever. :) Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithMarc Clifton wrote:
Two things I will be delighted if I never see again, ever.
good for you:)
-Prakash
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Mr.Prakash wrote:
But when i wanted to something out of the way, i.e. calling windows api, then there was this p/invoke stuff that makes the C# code file very ugly.
On the rare occasion that I have to do that I abstract those calls in to a separate class (or classes) then when I need to use it in the business logic the code is clear and easy to read. Nothing ugly to see. Sure the abstract class is a bit ugly, but then so is calling ADO.NET directly in the presentation layer.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
so is calling ADO.NET directly in the presentation layer.
Then we're not just talking ugly, but poor design.
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I know I will be flamed for this post. C++ is what earns me my bread. But I take programming as a hobby and not as a job, so most of the time I have fun programming and debugging :) Since I am in France and alone, I got lot of time during the weekends to do something new, so I took C# the much talked about language to learn and also to learn new things about .NET 2 Framework. Yeah it is really good and of cource it makes programming very easy. What would take me 2 weeks or more to do took me a weekend in C#, it reminded me of VB when i was doing COM programming, using a COM in VB is way to easy to do than VC++ But when i wanted to something out of the way, i.e. calling windows api, then there was this p/invoke stuff that makes the C# code file very ugly. Then i read couple of Nishant's article on C++/CLI. And now I am convinced that I have to dump C#. If you are programming in C++/CLI, then .NET libs are just like any other library used in C++ (plus other mambo jumbo). Then I thought for a while why C# has become very popular. I know one guy in CP, he is very good in C++, he once said that when VB programmers comes to his house, they ask him the way to the toilet to clean. And now i belive he lurks a lot in C# forum and posted many articles in C#. The point is C# is close to easiness of VB but syntactically it is like C++. So all the C++ programmers who didn't want to have the VB tag on them because it is so uncool to be programming in VB (even if sometimes it is the right tool for the job) went straight for C# because it is not VB. But a person who likes to flex his C++ muscle every now and then, will find C# very restrictive just like VB. So now I move on to C++/CLI. Good luck to me.
-Prakash
Mr.Prakash wrote:
But a person who likes to flex his C++ muscle every now and then, will find C# very restrictive just like VB.
Restrictive how? Whilst it is always about choosing the right tool for the job, C# has proved to be very flexible and given me a lot of power. C++/CLI is nice, but when working in a managed environment fulltime there just doesn't seem to be a need.
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