where do they find these web developers???
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feline_dracoform wrote:
Most LAN lines will have 6 digits and the system is tied in with this area, we are aware that customer still have the old fashioned 5 numbers and some depending on the area have 7.
Wow! I've had a seven digit numbers all my life. The following area codes all have 7 digit numbers: 0121: Birmingham 0131: Edinburgh 0141: Glasgow 0151: Liverpool 0161: Manchester 0191: Newcastle 0207: London 0208: London And I think at the last number reorganisation 4 or 5 new areas got 7 digit numbers. The ones above represent the area that have had 7 digits after the area code for as long as I can remember (roughly 30 years). The above list probably represents 20% to 30% of the UK population.
feline_dracoform wrote:
if it is a 7 digit number, please remove your last digit.
What was the point of asking for the phone number at all!
feline_dracoform wrote:
the final joy was the note on the registration page saying that all passwords are case insensitive.
I dread to think how they are actually being stored.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
0118: Reading Although, try telling long-term residents that the dial code is not 01189 as half of them seem to think. I've seen new businesses set up with the signage giving the number as 01189 xxxxxx. Reason? We missed out on the big switchover day in 1995, the regulator at the time deciding we didn't need that many numbers (so 0734 xxxxxx became 01734 xxxxxx), then not even a year later introducing 0118 (on 8 April 1996). We didn't get anything like the public information campaign that other 011x cities got. It still seems to catch people out when they encounter 0118 3xx xxxx numbers. London's dial code is 020 and local numbers are 8 digits. The 7 or 8 got prefixed to your previous 7-digit local number, depending on whether you were previously 0171 or 0181. New 020 3xxx xxxx numbers were issued as of June 2005 according to Wikipedia[^]. At the same time, Southampton and Portsmouth got 023, Coventry 024, Cardiff 029, and Northern Ireland 028, all of which have 8-digit local numbers. Frankly I'm not sure it really matters any more due to all-number dialling being common on mobile phones (for non-Brits, all mobile phones in the UK have 11-digit numbers beginning 07, and therefore will never be in the 'same area code' as any landline phone). I'm not sure whether you can dial another mobile sharing the same prefix using only a 'local' number. If you could, it would only work for phones with the same first three digits if BT's convention (e.g. 077 42xx xxxx) is correct, rather than what appeared on the packaging for my mobile (07742 xxxxxx).
Stability. What an interesting concept. -- Chris Maunder
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feline_dracoform wrote:
I can sort of understand why they don't want to update the website - concerns over breaking it
This is the line in your post that scares me the most.
To reply to that, I do not work in web development. I looked at the regex in question, I can post it if anyone cares, and thought "what idiot wrote this?" but then, I have been using regular expressions in Vim, grep, egrep, fgrep, and others for years, so I know they are always a bit different everywhere. But still, unless JavaScript has really feeble regex support then it could have been done much better and more reliably with a far shorter regex. However I am assuming that this is a big organisation, so you have to go through 87 layers of management to get a customer facing website changed. To me, the code change looked like a 60 second job, but what about the re-testing on every system they check? Sorting out the backend effects... etc. So I don't want to assume it is an end to end simple fix. I learned many years ago that even "obvious and safe" bug fixes can have unexpected side effects :)
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
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for the system at hand it's quite likely it was developed by external contractors, and the administrative overhead of getting any regexp-enabled techie close to the code is probably more expensive than telling a margin of the customers politely to phuket off. But that's a social or economical problem, not a technical one - and I am convinced that these generally can't be solved by technology, only replaced. So while _a generation of MTV-style drifters with insect-like attention spans can certainly be perceived from a suitable POV, it's hardly their fault.
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us!_
peterchen wrote:
for the system at hand it's quite likely it was developed by external contractors, and the administrative overhead of getting any regexp-enabled techie close to the code is probably more expensive than telling a margin of the customers politely to phuket off.
And that situation doesn't suggest a serious miscalculation, by someone, somewhere along the way?
peterchen wrote:
So while a generation of MTV-style drifters with insect-like attention spans can certainly be perceived from a suitable POV, it's hardly their fault.
I don't really care about placing blame here. What I'm concerned about is that we're not properly nurturing the technological skills in young people that are necessary to advance (or even maintain) a technological society. For example, when I was a kid, almost everyone changed (or at least knew how to chaing) the oil in their own vehicle, and a number of my personal teen-age friends knew how to take apart and rebuild a real V8 engine using nothing but hand tools in their garages. Today, a kid takes one look under the hood of a modern car - which incidently does very little the old ones couldn't do - and says, "Whoa! Way too complicated for me! I think I'll go play shoot-em-up with the Wii." In short, we've got way too many consumers and not enough creators; and the situation is getting worse.
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To reply to that, I do not work in web development. I looked at the regex in question, I can post it if anyone cares, and thought "what idiot wrote this?" but then, I have been using regular expressions in Vim, grep, egrep, fgrep, and others for years, so I know they are always a bit different everywhere. But still, unless JavaScript has really feeble regex support then it could have been done much better and more reliably with a far shorter regex. However I am assuming that this is a big organisation, so you have to go through 87 layers of management to get a customer facing website changed. To me, the code change looked like a 60 second job, but what about the re-testing on every system they check? Sorting out the backend effects... etc. So I don't want to assume it is an end to end simple fix. I learned many years ago that even "obvious and safe" bug fixes can have unexpected side effects :)
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
feline_dracoform wrote:
I learned many years ago that even "obvious and safe" bug fixes can have unexpected side effects
Of course. That's why a programmer is supposed to test his changes before releasing them; not say, "I'm afraid to make changes so I won't" or "It's just too big to test so we're stuck with it." Those are the scary statements.
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Where have you been hiding? I had some chocolate for you! Elaine (chomping fluffy tigress)
did someone say the magic word? :-D :rose: as for me, its that "I thought I saw a puddy cat, I did, I did" - you need the proper tweetie bird accent for that to work properly :) http://www.wholetomato.com/forum/default.asp I do hope someone gets that joke ;P First there was the "I have just changed jobs, *eeek* I am busy" effect, and then I have had a very busy few weeks, it seems everyone and their brother had a question :rolleyes: hopefully I can come by more often now things are more settled. now one pussy cat to another, what is this about chocolate? :rose:
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
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What the heck is a "LAN line"? :sigh:
--Mike-- Visual C++ MVP :cool: LINKS~! Ericahist | PimpFish | CP SearchBar v3.0 | C++ Forum FAQ
a very bad spelling of "land" I think, but I had to stop and think about it myself.
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
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peterchen wrote:
for the system at hand it's quite likely it was developed by external contractors, and the administrative overhead of getting any regexp-enabled techie close to the code is probably more expensive than telling a margin of the customers politely to phuket off.
And that situation doesn't suggest a serious miscalculation, by someone, somewhere along the way?
peterchen wrote:
So while a generation of MTV-style drifters with insect-like attention spans can certainly be perceived from a suitable POV, it's hardly their fault.
I don't really care about placing blame here. What I'm concerned about is that we're not properly nurturing the technological skills in young people that are necessary to advance (or even maintain) a technological society. For example, when I was a kid, almost everyone changed (or at least knew how to chaing) the oil in their own vehicle, and a number of my personal teen-age friends knew how to take apart and rebuild a real V8 engine using nothing but hand tools in their garages. Today, a kid takes one look under the hood of a modern car - which incidently does very little the old ones couldn't do - and says, "Whoa! Way too complicated for me! I think I'll go play shoot-em-up with the Wii." In short, we've got way too many consumers and not enough creators; and the situation is getting worse.
The Grand Negus wrote:
And that situation doesn't suggest a serious miscalculation, by someone, somewhere along the way?
If you want to say it will hurt them, no. If you sa it is stupid to design a company this way, yes.
The Grand Negus wrote:
What I'm concerned about is that we're not properly nurturing the technological skills in young people that are necessary to advance (or even maintain) a technological society.
Right, but: Technology became much more complex, your V8 dis-and-reassembling friends would look under a todays cars hood, they'd say "Whoa! Way too complicated for me! I think I'll go shoot some deer." Your implication that this is dangerous for our tech-driven society is dangerous is 100% on spot. I don't see that very black either, because the art of technology has been in the hands of few throughout all ages, and I trust that this and the next generation will still contain the 2% or 3% of gifted individuals that you can't stop or destroy, whatever education system you throw at them. And they'll keep driving technology forward. We are quickly losing the "Grade B" guys, the second rank, that makes the great ideas happen for everybody.
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us! -
The Grand Negus wrote:
And that situation doesn't suggest a serious miscalculation, by someone, somewhere along the way?
If you want to say it will hurt them, no. If you sa it is stupid to design a company this way, yes.
The Grand Negus wrote:
What I'm concerned about is that we're not properly nurturing the technological skills in young people that are necessary to advance (or even maintain) a technological society.
Right, but: Technology became much more complex, your V8 dis-and-reassembling friends would look under a todays cars hood, they'd say "Whoa! Way too complicated for me! I think I'll go shoot some deer." Your implication that this is dangerous for our tech-driven society is dangerous is 100% on spot. I don't see that very black either, because the art of technology has been in the hands of few throughout all ages, and I trust that this and the next generation will still contain the 2% or 3% of gifted individuals that you can't stop or destroy, whatever education system you throw at them. And they'll keep driving technology forward. We are quickly losing the "Grade B" guys, the second rank, that makes the great ideas happen for everybody.
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us!peterchen wrote:
We are quickly losing the "Grade B" guys, the second rank, that makes the great ideas happen for everybody.
I know this isn't quite what you meant by "Grade B guys", but, if you take a look at history, you'll see that when the Grade B guys - the middle class - disappear, and society divides into two widely separated groups (the haves and the have-nots), the next event is not typically "great ideas for everybody" but privilege for some, poverty for most, and rebellion and war following. The PS3 can be used by "everybody", but it's not a "great idea". The PS3 people (the Grade A guys) are making a lot of money, but their product is not helping to develop the minds of their customers (the Grade C guys) - on the contrary, it is turning them into idiots who will sleep in the rain for days to get a machine that is essentially the same as the PS2 they've already got.
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What appears to be a current peeve of mine is the acceptance of bad coding practices it is just frustrating for me. Last month while reviewing some programs I found an array that holds the number of months to search hard coded to 120. The developer decided that it was easier to decide the program will only need to last 120 months then just break. Resizing the array is not that hard and even though I admit 120 months is longer than this craplication should live it is the principle of the thing. I have found hard coded values through out this older code base and virtually no use of configuration files. Most of the code is written in vb6 and .net in the vb6 style (60-100 line switch statements entire applications written in the code behind). I feel your pain so rant away. :)
KevinMac wrote:
craplication
:)
KevinMac wrote:
Most of the code is written in vb6 and .net in the vb6 style
ouch! I've seen (and partially rewrited and ported to ASP.NET 2.0) ASP.NET 1.x website written in old ASP style and man, it was sick. :~
"Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. " - Morpheus
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did someone say the magic word? :-D :rose: as for me, its that "I thought I saw a puddy cat, I did, I did" - you need the proper tweetie bird accent for that to work properly :) http://www.wholetomato.com/forum/default.asp I do hope someone gets that joke ;P First there was the "I have just changed jobs, *eeek* I am busy" effect, and then I have had a very busy few weeks, it seems everyone and their brother had a question :rolleyes: hopefully I can come by more often now things are more settled. now one pussy cat to another, what is this about chocolate? :rose:
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
*Elaine makes mumbling sounds as she finishes the cholocate*
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I just have to have a little rant, and I harbour the hope that this rant will remind people not to be so VERY stupid with validation. It started simply enough. I discovered that I could get the Tetris game for my DS lite games console at a very good price from the Tesco (a popular supermarket in England) website. To make my order I had to register. To register I had to give them my phone number. So far so good. Who ever wrote the website used a regular expression in a bit of Java to validate the phone number field. I know this since I spent 45 minutes, 3 web browsers, and in the end a regular expression analysis program trying (after I started digging through the source) to register!!! :mad: Normally I would not name the guilty, but after *finally* registering - I used the regular expression checking program to help me construct a phone number that would pass the validation rules, but I have just received an email from them, after I complained about their stupid website validation rule. This was the "best" bit of the email: 5 and 7 digits numbers - Most LAN lines will have 6 digits and the system is tied in with this area, we are aware that customer still have the old fashioned 5 numbers and some depending on the area have 7. Please can we ask if you have a 5 digit number to add a 0 or a 1 at the end, again if it is a 7 digit number, please remove your last digit. I can sort of understand why they don't want to update the website - concerns over breaking it, but a major supermarket is left telling people to enter invalid phone numbers because some *idiot* hard coded the length of a phone number! It would not be so bad, but this helpful advice turned up 3 days after I registered and then emailed them. God help "average" users with an invalid phone number trying to register. If you are still reading, then thank you for your kind attention :) p.s. the final joy was the note on the registration page saying that all passwords are case insensitive. Gee, thanks. So much for the basic advice on secure passwords.
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
where do they find these web developers??? Rent-a-coder??? :laugh: :doh: Steve
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where do they find these web developers??? Rent-a-coder??? :laugh: :doh: Steve
Steve Mayfield wrote:
where do they find these web developers??? Rent-a-coder???
Bingo :-D
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*Elaine makes mumbling sounds as she finishes the cholocate*
if I might have a private word with you? *wonders how best to explain that Elaine has been a naughty tiger* *this may need some thought* ;P
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
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0118: Reading Although, try telling long-term residents that the dial code is not 01189 as half of them seem to think. I've seen new businesses set up with the signage giving the number as 01189 xxxxxx. Reason? We missed out on the big switchover day in 1995, the regulator at the time deciding we didn't need that many numbers (so 0734 xxxxxx became 01734 xxxxxx), then not even a year later introducing 0118 (on 8 April 1996). We didn't get anything like the public information campaign that other 011x cities got. It still seems to catch people out when they encounter 0118 3xx xxxx numbers. London's dial code is 020 and local numbers are 8 digits. The 7 or 8 got prefixed to your previous 7-digit local number, depending on whether you were previously 0171 or 0181. New 020 3xxx xxxx numbers were issued as of June 2005 according to Wikipedia[^]. At the same time, Southampton and Portsmouth got 023, Coventry 024, Cardiff 029, and Northern Ireland 028, all of which have 8-digit local numbers. Frankly I'm not sure it really matters any more due to all-number dialling being common on mobile phones (for non-Brits, all mobile phones in the UK have 11-digit numbers beginning 07, and therefore will never be in the 'same area code' as any landline phone). I'm not sure whether you can dial another mobile sharing the same prefix using only a 'local' number. If you could, it would only work for phones with the same first three digits if BT's convention (e.g. 077 42xx xxxx) is correct, rather than what appeared on the packaging for my mobile (07742 xxxxxx).
Stability. What an interesting concept. -- Chris Maunder
Mike Dimmick wrote:
London's dial code is 020 and local numbers are 8 digits.
Ah... I didn't realise that. I've seen so many signs saying 0207 xxx xxxx or 0208 xxx xxxx. Anyway, we do seem to have a complex phone numbering system. And one which is should be validated by a regex in a config file due to the frequency things seem to change.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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The Grand Negus wrote:
And that situation doesn't suggest a serious miscalculation, by someone, somewhere along the way?
If you want to say it will hurt them, no. If you sa it is stupid to design a company this way, yes.
The Grand Negus wrote:
What I'm concerned about is that we're not properly nurturing the technological skills in young people that are necessary to advance (or even maintain) a technological society.
Right, but: Technology became much more complex, your V8 dis-and-reassembling friends would look under a todays cars hood, they'd say "Whoa! Way too complicated for me! I think I'll go shoot some deer." Your implication that this is dangerous for our tech-driven society is dangerous is 100% on spot. I don't see that very black either, because the art of technology has been in the hands of few throughout all ages, and I trust that this and the next generation will still contain the 2% or 3% of gifted individuals that you can't stop or destroy, whatever education system you throw at them. And they'll keep driving technology forward. We are quickly losing the "Grade B" guys, the second rank, that makes the great ideas happen for everybody.
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us!peterchen wrote:
your V8 dis-and-reassembling friends would look under a todays cars hood, they'd say "Whoa! Way too complicated for me!
Yes and no. I am one of those that Mr. Grand is referring to. I grew up working on cars; rebuilding engines, painting, etc. There is more clap-trap under the hood today, but that big hunk of metal underneath it all isn't too terribly different than it used to be. I don't think that I would have any problem rebuilding one. I've even educated myself on what that clap-trap does, so it isn't that big a deal either. The biggest issue is having a good place to work and the right tools (dang metric nonsense).
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
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0118: Reading Although, try telling long-term residents that the dial code is not 01189 as half of them seem to think. I've seen new businesses set up with the signage giving the number as 01189 xxxxxx. Reason? We missed out on the big switchover day in 1995, the regulator at the time deciding we didn't need that many numbers (so 0734 xxxxxx became 01734 xxxxxx), then not even a year later introducing 0118 (on 8 April 1996). We didn't get anything like the public information campaign that other 011x cities got. It still seems to catch people out when they encounter 0118 3xx xxxx numbers. London's dial code is 020 and local numbers are 8 digits. The 7 or 8 got prefixed to your previous 7-digit local number, depending on whether you were previously 0171 or 0181. New 020 3xxx xxxx numbers were issued as of June 2005 according to Wikipedia[^]. At the same time, Southampton and Portsmouth got 023, Coventry 024, Cardiff 029, and Northern Ireland 028, all of which have 8-digit local numbers. Frankly I'm not sure it really matters any more due to all-number dialling being common on mobile phones (for non-Brits, all mobile phones in the UK have 11-digit numbers beginning 07, and therefore will never be in the 'same area code' as any landline phone). I'm not sure whether you can dial another mobile sharing the same prefix using only a 'local' number. If you could, it would only work for phones with the same first three digits if BT's convention (e.g. 077 42xx xxxx) is correct, rather than what appeared on the packaging for my mobile (07742 xxxxxx).
Stability. What an interesting concept. -- Chris Maunder
Mike, I'll be in Reading for the Microsoft Office and Vista Launch. Would you like to meet up on Friday or Saturday night?
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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for the system at hand it's quite likely it was developed by external contractors, and the administrative overhead of getting any regexp-enabled techie close to the code is probably more expensive than telling a margin of the customers politely to phuket off. But that's a social or economical problem, not a technical one - and I am convinced that these generally can't be solved by technology, only replaced. So while _a generation of MTV-style drifters with insect-like attention spans can certainly be perceived from a suitable POV, it's hardly their fault.
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us!_
peterchen wrote:
a margin of the customers politely to phuket off.
A margin of customers that represents somewhere in the region of 30% of the UK population - That's 18 million potential customers.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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The Grand Negus wrote:
And that situation doesn't suggest a serious miscalculation, by someone, somewhere along the way?
If you want to say it will hurt them, no. If you sa it is stupid to design a company this way, yes.
The Grand Negus wrote:
What I'm concerned about is that we're not properly nurturing the technological skills in young people that are necessary to advance (or even maintain) a technological society.
Right, but: Technology became much more complex, your V8 dis-and-reassembling friends would look under a todays cars hood, they'd say "Whoa! Way too complicated for me! I think I'll go shoot some deer." Your implication that this is dangerous for our tech-driven society is dangerous is 100% on spot. I don't see that very black either, because the art of technology has been in the hands of few throughout all ages, and I trust that this and the next generation will still contain the 2% or 3% of gifted individuals that you can't stop or destroy, whatever education system you throw at them. And they'll keep driving technology forward. We are quickly losing the "Grade B" guys, the second rank, that makes the great ideas happen for everybody.
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us!peterchen wrote:
We are quickly losing the "Grade B" guys, the second rank, that makes the great ideas happen for everybody.
Exactly! Genius isn't genuis until it's recognised. Otherwise its just one hand clapping.
Epitaph: Foolish humans, never escaped Earth.- Vernor Vinge
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peterchen wrote:
We are quickly losing the "Grade B" guys, the second rank, that makes the great ideas happen for everybody.
I know this isn't quite what you meant by "Grade B guys", but, if you take a look at history, you'll see that when the Grade B guys - the middle class - disappear, and society divides into two widely separated groups (the haves and the have-nots), the next event is not typically "great ideas for everybody" but privilege for some, poverty for most, and rebellion and war following. The PS3 can be used by "everybody", but it's not a "great idea". The PS3 people (the Grade A guys) are making a lot of money, but their product is not helping to develop the minds of their customers (the Grade C guys) - on the contrary, it is turning them into idiots who will sleep in the rain for days to get a machine that is essentially the same as the PS2 they've already got.
The Grand Negus wrote:
The PS3 can be used by "everybody", but it's not a "great idea". The PS3 people (the Grade A guys) are making a lot of money, but their product is not helping to develop the minds of their customers (the Grade C guys) - on the contrary, it is turning them into idiots who will sleep in the rain for days to get a machine that is essentially the same as the PS2 they've already got.
LOL...golly, what tripe is this you're trying to serve up? You're asserting that it is the responsibility of "entertainment" to educate? What a vacuous approach to education.
Epitaph: Foolish humans, never escaped Earth.- Vernor Vinge
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The Grand Negus wrote:
The PS3 can be used by "everybody", but it's not a "great idea". The PS3 people (the Grade A guys) are making a lot of money, but their product is not helping to develop the minds of their customers (the Grade C guys) - on the contrary, it is turning them into idiots who will sleep in the rain for days to get a machine that is essentially the same as the PS2 they've already got.
LOL...golly, what tripe is this you're trying to serve up? You're asserting that it is the responsibility of "entertainment" to educate? What a vacuous approach to education.
Epitaph: Foolish humans, never escaped Earth.- Vernor Vinge
Jerry Hammond wrote:
You're asserting that it is the responsibility of "entertainment" to educate?
I'm asserting that it is the responsibility of everyone to be edifying, as best they can, in every circumstance. Products that are designed specifically to activate primal limbic functions at the expense of higher brain functions are not, in my view, edifying for humans since a human becomes a mere animal when the higher brain functions are so deactivated. Much entertainment has a positive effect on humans, and even entertainments that activate the primal limbic systems can be edifying if they do so in conjunction with, or as a means of, improving the participant. Every experience should make you better; if it doesn't, it's, at best, a waste of time, and at worst, a danger to your soul.